{"id":602,"date":"2004-11-12T17:58:22","date_gmt":"2004-11-12T17:58:22","guid":{"rendered":"0"},"modified":"2006-09-28T12:08:53","modified_gmt":"2006-09-28T12:08:53","slug":"libertarians_and_obligation","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/marcdanziger.com\/?p=602","title":{"rendered":"Libertarians and Obligation"},"content":{"rendered":"

Commenter TJ Madison left a lengthy comment<\/a> on the Veteran’s Day post<\/a>, laying out a what I take as a libertarian case against honoring the veterans of American wars. I haven’t had a lot of success in starting constructive arguments with people who don’t believe that society exists at all, but because I said I would, here goes.<\/p>\n

His quotes from my post are preceded by >>.<\/p>\n

<<First, you have to love America.<\/p>\n

\nThis is an odd statement. “America” is simply a geographic area filled with 300 million people. It’s too large and too diffuse for anyone to “love” in a meaningful sense.<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

That’s silly. America is also an idea, or a group of ideas. As noted by Lincoln in the Lyceum speech<\/a> I mentioned last year:<\/p>\n

We find ourselves in the peaceful possession, of the fairest portion of the earth, as regards extent of territory, fertility of soil, and salubrity of climate. We find ourselves under the government of a system of political institutions, conducing more essentially to the ends of civil and religious liberty, than any of which the history of former times tells us. We, when mounting the stage of existence, found ourselves the legal inheritors of these fundamental blessings. We toiled not in the acquirement or establishment of them–they are a legacy bequeathed us, by a once hardy, brave, and patriotic, but now lamented and departed race of ancestors. <\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Their’s was the task (and nobly they performed it) to possess themselves, and through themselves, us, of this goodly land; and to uprear upon its hills and its valleys, a political edifice of liberty and equal rights; ’tis ours only, to transmit these, the former, unprofaned by the foot of an invader; the latter, undecayed by the lapse of time and untorn by usurpation, to the latest generation that fate shall permit the world to know. This task of gratitude to our fathers, justice to ourselves, duty to posterity, and love for our species in general, all imperatively require us faithfully to perform.<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The lives we lead are in fact a legacy, and like it or not we have a debt to pay forward to the generations that come after us.<\/p>\n

I’m constantly amused that libertarians somehow believe that the social constructs that surround us and make up our society and polity are natural; it’s kind of like believing that the 405 freeway is somehow the product of nature, just laid out here so we can commute on it. Law, domestic tranquility, the advanced arts and sciences we enjoy didn’t spring fully-formed from the forehead of Zeus.<\/p>\n

Anyone who has owned a home or a boat knows what it is to fight entropy. The reality is that everything we build wears down, wears out, and is used up. We need to constantly spend effort to keep them up. <\/p>\n

Social constructs are no different than physical ones. Libertarians either believe that this is false, and that the social sphere will somehow self-generate with no effort on our part, or that they can get a free ride on the social goods – property among them – that are so produced.<\/p>\n

If you don’t think property is a social good, ask yourself how much land in Mogadishu is worth. The answer: enough ammunition to keep someone else from taking it from you by force.<\/p>\n

<<This isn’t a perfect country. I think it\u2019s the best county.<\/p>\n

\nIndeed. The govenment here is the least oppressive (for now). As a result people here can actually get some work done.<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

And that least oppressive government is the product of a political history that requires constant maintenance. Back to Lincoln:<\/p>\n

But those histories are gone. They can be read no more forever. They were a fortress of strength; but, what invading foeman could never do, the silent artillery of time has done; the leveling of its walls. They are gone.–They were a forest of giant oaks; but the all-resistless hurricane has swept over them, and left only, here and there, a lonely trunk, despoiled of its verdure, shorn of its foliage; unshading and unshaded, to murmur in a few gentle breezes, and to combat with its mutilated limbs, a few more ruder storms, then to sink, and be no more.<\/p>\n

\nThey were the pillars of the temple of liberty; and now, that they have crumbled away, that temple must fall, unless we, their descendants, supply their places with other pillars, hewn from the solid quarry of sober reason. Passion has helped us; but can do so no more. It will in future be our enemy. Reason, cold, calculating, unimpassioned reason, must furnish all the materials for our future support and defense.–Let those materials be moulded into general intelligence, sound morality, and in particular, a reverence for the constitution and laws: and, that we improved to the last; that we remained free to the last; that we revered his name to the last; that, during his long sleep, we permitted no hostile foot to pass over or desecrate his resting place; shall be that which to learn the last trump shall awaken our WASHINGTON.<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

His appeal to reason is an appeal against the passions of the mob, and their desire to take the law into their own hands, and so weaken it. His reason encompasses the totality of the human experience, individual as well as social.<\/p>\n

<<I love this country, my country, my people. And those who attack her…from guerilla cells, boardrooms, or their comfy chairs in expensive restaurants…better watch out.<\/p>\n

\nAgain, America is not a person. Guerilla cells attack and kill PEOPLE. Why should I care more about the deaths of innocent people I don’t know in NYC as opposed to innocent people I don’t know in Sudan? The only moral answer I see involves simple logistics: strangers in NYC are easier for me to help, so spending effort on them is more efficient.<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

That’s immensely stupid. You live in a social, economic and political matrix which ties you more closely to people in New York than to people in the Sudan. To deny that is adolescent fantasy at best; it’s important to remember that Ayn Rand’s work is classified as “fiction”.<\/p>\n

<<So thanks, veterans. Thanks soldiers and sailors and marines and airmen. Thanks for doing your jobs and I hope you all come home hale and whole, every one of you.<\/p>\n

\nOccasionally the USG does actually defend the US population from harm. The bungled operations in Afghanistan, despite their failure to get OBL, may have slowed down the terrorists. Historically speaking, however, General Smedley Butler, USMC, CMH*2 seems to have been correct.<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Yup, the pre-WWII General. If only we’d listened to him and disbanded the standing Army…wait! We did!<\/p>\n

You seem to operate from the fallacy that all harm comes from the powerful interests of the West. A lot has; but human history – the history that, try as you may, you’re a part of – is the history of harm done and defended against.<\/p>\n

<<And I came to realize that these men and women – who had trained for a substantial part of their life to learning do unspeakable violence – had the energy and breadth of intelligence to also focus intently on doing good. And that they wanted more than anything to do good, and in so doing keep at bay the need to do violence.<\/p>\n

\nThis means nothing. The Nazis were committed to “doing the right thing” by their own standards. Sincerity of purpose isn’t nearly as useful as people seem to think it is.<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

See, I have no trouble telling the difference between our standards, which have to date been largely good (aimed at promoting freedom, health, and life) and the standards of the SS (aimed at promoting oppression, misery, and death). We don’t always – or often – meet our own standards, but they are there for us to measure ourselves against nonetheless.<\/p>\n

<<On the worst day in modern history for the U.S. military, a few soldiers covered themselves with honor.<\/p>\n

\nThe worst day? THE WORST DAY? How about Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo? 100x civilian fatalities? Or does that not count as “modern history” anymore?<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Sorry, strategic war is still war. For most of human history, the enemy’s people have been a legitimate target. For a lengthier discussion of this, go over to my old discussion on the nature of terrorism at Armed Liberal<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Of course there are some ethical people in the military. The selection pressure for unquestioning obedience is very strong, but it isn’t perfect.<\/p>\n

\n<<I realized that the military was not a machine, separate from me and against which I could struggle. I realized that it was a group of individuals who are an expression of our society – of our worst and our best.<\/p>\n

\nIt’s BOTH. Most of the people in that machine seem decent enough as individuals. But the US military is still a machine. And unquestioning obedience to authority and rational virtuous action are still incompatible.<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

You flatly don’t know what you’re talking about. I don’t know if you’re projecting old fantasies (as I did) or simply watching too much television, but what you’re saying isn’t remotely borne out by facts. <\/p>\n

<<But they are our soldiers, and they choose to stand between us and people who would murder us in our sleep. The wrong they do is ours, and the honor their own.<\/p>\n

\nI didn’t select these men, or support their actions in any way, except to the extent their paycheck is extorted from me. I bear no responsibility for their actions, good or bad.<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Bzzzt. Sorry. You live behind walls they erect with their bodies. You don’t spend time standing watch over your home to make sure that no one invades and takes it away because they do.<\/p>\n

<<And for my fellows who look at them as soulless thugs, you owe them an apology too, and all of us owe them our gratitude.<\/p>\n

\nThey aren’t soulless thugs, true. But I owe them no apology. They are responsible for their actions.<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Yes, as you are for yours.<\/p>\n

It’s frustrating for me to debate Randians too much, because the vocabulary doesn’t mean the same thing to me as to them. They see a far different world than I do, and that’s frustrating because I want to realign liberalism – an ’emergent’ liberalism – along some lines that I think would be appealing to libertarians. I’m just not sure how to make the connection.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Commenter TJ Madison left a lengthy comment on the Veteran’s Day post, laying out a what I take as a libertarian case against honoring the veterans of American wars. I haven’t had a lot of success in starting constructive arguments with people who don’t believe that society exists at all, but because I said I […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/marcdanziger.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/602"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/marcdanziger.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/marcdanziger.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/marcdanziger.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/marcdanziger.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=602"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/marcdanziger.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/602\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/marcdanziger.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=602"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/marcdanziger.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=602"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/marcdanziger.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=602"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}