This came in as a comment from Michael Greene on the post below concerning Eric Raymond’s articles on the bleak future of Islamic/Western relations, and seemed interesting enough to move up from comment to the blog. As usual, my comments are interspersed.
If war is ‘built into’ the Islamic faith, why have they fought such comparably fewer wars than the West has? Millions and millions have died in European wars, what was the last major war the Islamic world participated in, Iran-Iraq?
I think the whole idea of Europe and America trying to pretend that the Islamic people are more war-like is joke given the past 100 years of modern history.
First, Ive never said that Western culture isnt warlike. I was overly casual in my statement; the argument made is that war is built into the conflict between the Western and Islamic cultures. Having said that, Ill point out that the West has been and is moving away from war and toward markets and diplomacy, while in the Islamic world militancy (in the military sense) is rising. This is partly caused, I would guess, by the need of increasingly dictatorial governments to stay in power, and partly by the real or perceived threats from their neighbors and the West. Let’s see…Iran/Iraq, Iraq/Kurd, Iraq/Kuwait, Pakistan/India, Kyrgyzstan, Chechnya, the Moluccas…that’s just off the top of my head.
Furthermore, Eric Raymond has apparently done absolutely no research on Islamic history. The entire history of early Islam and the later spread of the relgion has many instances of war, but virtually every one of them is seen as a final step necessary only after negotiation has failed. Furthermore, a fundamental aspect of Islamic war is that you must treat your enemy with respect and dignity once the battle is over.
To go even further into this poorly constructed argument between this site and Eric Raymond’s, Huntington does not say at all that Islamic society is more war-like than Western, rather that the two are destined to war over a clash in ideas and values.
As noted above, that was my careless construction. Id love some evidence (cites) on this. As I noted, Im relatively ignorant on Islamic history (which still probably means I know more than a lot of folks), and would love to see some examples which lead one away from Raymonds bleak conclusion.
While I agree with you that diplomacy might mean different things to different cultures, there is absolutely no evidence that one society is inherently more warlike than any other. In fact, on the basis of the evidence it would seem that Europe and the United States are the most war-like, but certainly that could not be the case, could it? Furthermore, the things being asked for by the respectable (non-fanatic) Muslims are all very reasonable things. Mostly they are asking for a fair solution in Israel/Palestine, and for greater democracy and freedom in their lands which leads to more economic prosperity (or vice-versa). My own travels have revealed a world whose people (if not governments) are rapidly coming together. It would be a huge mistake to listen to an Eric Raymond type who sees fundamental differences in humanity itself that make one group “more warlike” even though the evidence is clearly against that view. Such divisions are precisely what is not needed to engage the moderate majority of people in the world who want economic prosperity first and foremost.
The points I see here are:
1) not clear which society is more warlike; Ill say it is more a matter of trends than absolutes. I think it is clear the we are militarily the strongest power on earth, and in an earlier post, I worried that if the conflict between the West and the Islamic world got serious enough, there might not be an Islamic world any more.
2) Your point about respectable Muslims would be taken a lot more seriously if I saw any evidence of them in the Muslim media I read here; similarly I think we might have very different ideas of what constitutes a fair solution in Israel/Palestine. Id love references and reading suggestions.
3) You suggest that your travels show you people who are rapidly coming together; mine have shown me that we see things that tell us that is the case superficially (we all like Coke, and love Britney) but that at the deeper levels of culture and politics, there is a lot of room for conflict. The Lexus and the Olive Tree suggests (in part) that were all coming together into one global set of brand-conscious consumers; Im not completely sure I agree.
Look, as in most arguments, there are certainly cases to make on both sides. But I have a hard time (as I’ve said over and over again) with the ‘moral equivalence’ position, that delegitimizes all of U.S. history because we took the land from the Indians (and so on). Comparing civil life, political freedom, personal freedom, and a whole bunch of things that I value highly, this is a much better place to be than there, and while Id never force anyone to adopt our lifestyle at the point of a gun (can we say that about them?), Im firmly on this team, and I think that thinking folks of all stripes should be as well.