I saw this over at Gerard Vanderleun’s (welcome back, BTW), and then at the Mailbox place near our house where I was shipping a package.
It was a short clip of the large soldier, in his urban camouflage and carrying what appeared to be a gun over his shoulder (I just got a glimpse) cradling the infant in his hands and handing the baby into someone waiting in a car.
Today, we don’t have to fear that it will be one of our children.
Today.
I am not a one-issue voter, but at the end of the day whoever gets my vote will have to explain to me what he’s going to do about this image. Bush or Kerry?
My child or yours?
The Russians have their own solution to their little terrorist problem. It involves, among other things, “grenading women cowering in basements.”:http://www.memo.ru/eng/hr/svideng.htm As we can see, their hard line against Chechnyan terrorists has been very effective.
I suppose one could argue that the Russians are merely reaping what they sowed when they decided to carpet-bomb Grozny into ruins, but the violence-cyclone between the two goes back a long time, so stating that the current situation in Ossetia is in retaliation for Russian counter-terrorist operations is overly simplistic, to say the least.
_”I am not a one-issue voter…”_
I am…all the others don’t matter. Environmentalism? I can’t save trees when I’m dead. Health care? I can’t go to the doc when I’m dead. Affirmative action? I don’t need a job when I’m dead. And neither can/do you…
_”…but at the end of the day whoever gets my vote will have to explain to me what he’s going to do about this image. Bush or Kerry?”_
They both have – in detail.
“The Bush Doctrine”:http://www.commentarymagazine.com/podhoretz.htm calls for a forthright confrontation with evil where it lives.
Kerry will go to the UN to ask for permission to do something _AFTER_ we are attacked. (Again…)
Of course, hostage situations like this could happen here as they already have on a lesser scale, unless we are willing to accept changes in our free society that would render it unrecognizable.
My democrat nephew-in-law (he’s slowly awakening, but he’s an educator raised up in Massachussetts— give him a little time…) put it very nicely when he said that he is willing to accept the cost of occasional tragedies and horrible attacks, rather than let the government take away the liberties that make America the model of freedom it has been.
>>stating that the current situation in Ossetia is in retaliation for Russian counter-terrorist operations is overly simplistic, to say the least.
For sure. The question is, are the Russian “counter-terror” operations making the situation _better_ or are they making the situation _worse_?
>>The Bush Doctrine calls for a forthright confrontation with evil where it lives.
Well, Kissinger and Zbigniew are both in the phone book. They’re both pretty old, so the struggle shouldn’t be that difficult.
For those who don’t speak Russian, the guy in the picture is Special Forces (right there on the tag above the right pocket).
In the current war it is unfortunate that the Russian SOF aren’t remotely near what they were a generation ago — equipment, training, command are all weaker. Russia suffers badly from a conscript military and wastes untold (precious) resources trying to teach Gryazniy Vanya from Outer Slobovia which end of the rifle to load.
Russian tactics aren’t all that sharp to begin with, which makes for lots of unnecessary losses, especially when /reacting/ to events, rather than controlling them.
There are important lessons therin for any American who will listen. The way to go is a highly trained, well-equipped volunteer force, used as much as possible when /we/ control operational tempo. When used within a clear strategic framework it can be very effective.
If anyone is interested in good coverage of this, go to http://www.logicandsanity.com/archives/2004/09/school_seized_i_1.html
>>>>The Bush Doctrine calls for a forthright confrontation with evil where it lives.
>> Well, Kissinger and Zbigniew are both in the phone book. They’re both pretty old, so the struggle shouldn’t be that difficult.
Congratulations, TJ, you’ve just encapsulated the unseriousness of the Left and the Democratic Party under its control in one succinct passage. How sad but indicative that you do it under the heading of the image above.
You’re exactly who Zell Miller was talking about the other night.
Bart –
“Russian tactics aren’t all that sharp to begin with, which makes for lots of unnecessary losses, especially when /reacting/ to events, rather than controlling them.” I was talking to some of my more ‘tactical’ friends about the outcome this morning (appears to be ~150 dead out of ~1,000 hostages) and they were suggesting that that was a pretty good outcome, particularly given that it appears that the assault wasn’t planned, but was in response to actions by the terrorists.
And T.J., please tell me you left the smiley off your inane comment.
So we’ll solve the problem of Islamist terror by finally holding the war crimes trials my college buddies used to dreram about? You know, the ones with LBJ and Nixon as defendents?
Then we can sell all the bombers and put the money into day-care centers, so the terrorists will have nice facilities to blow up.
You’re gonna have to do hella better than that.
A.L.
A.L.
Remember what I said about the enemy having a vote in this coming American Presidential election? You are now seeing the first absentee ballots arrive.
Ten of the dead terrorists were Arab Jihadis, not Chechens. This is Al-Qaeda or one of its Islamic Death Cult mind childen. The operation was paid for with Gulf Arab — most likely Saudi — blood money.
The reason Russia was chosen for this was because al-Qaeda could strike there. It had a base close to Russia’s borders and your average Russia’s border guards are as corrupt as your average Haitian policeman.
Compared to New York or Boston for the two Party’s national conventions, Russia was a soft target.
The odds are these ten Arabs went through Bin Laden’s Afghan terrorist school whose records we captured. We will share anything we know on these men with the Russians. It will be interesting to see what Putin will do with the Saudis, given the money ties the FSB will turn up from these Arabs.
Russia lack’s America’s power, but it also lack’s America’s self-restraint.
T. J. Madison, there is a grain of truth in your comments. But what do you think the Russians should have done?
And what do you think we should do?
These guys basically just walked into a school and took everyone hostage. Why can’t that happen here? What actions would we have to take to prevent it from happening here? Can anyone imagine us taking theses kinds of actions? And what would we do if it did?
I, too, was following the coverage in the Russian language online media. The terrorists (alternatively called terrorists, bandits, and attackers in the Russian media) were edgy and spoiling for a fight from the outset. They had no real demands. Negotiations were proceeding. On-site reports suggest that either the terrorists lost their nerve or responded to an escape attempt by some of the kids.
I’ve been following this on Logic & Sanity, who has a great rolling post on this (translated from the Russian); apparently one of the booby traps placed by the terrorists detonated, a bunch of kids – the ones who didn’t get killed or mained in the explosion – ran like hell, the terrorists opened fire on the fleeing kids and the dance was on.
It sounds like there may be a bunch of questions about what the Russians did – but it sounds like they had an ‘active’ situation and went with it as best they could. And, per my comment earlier on the theater rescue, while the results are horrible – they’re not as horrible as they could have been, which is why I tip my cap to the Russian forces.
A.L.
A. L.:
Other Russian language sources attribute the detonation to special forces attempting to weaken one of the school walls with small arms fire (this is straight from the sources—I’m not making it up). The only thing in which I fault the Russian forces on-site is in not establishing a cleared perimeter. It may be my American Anglo-Saxon sensibilities but it sounds to me like a condition of chaos was already there and that facilitated the escape (or near escape) of the terrorists. But I think the Russians did the best they could with a bad situation.
Dave –
Links!! Share!! …seriously, I’m looking for all the good coverage I can find, so please put them up…
A.L.
A. L.:
My posts on the hostage crisis (which include my translations of and links to various Russian language sources) are here, here, here, and here.
Stan’s coverage was fabulous. I tried to do lengthier translations, fill in a few blank spots, etc.
Dave –
Thank you!!
A.L.
>>Congratulations, TJ, you’ve just encapsulated the unseriousness of the Left and the Democratic Party under its control in one succinct passage. How sad but indicative that you do it under the heading of the image above.
I’m deadly serious. And Zbigniew was a Democrat last I checked. Those two men are responsible for more bloodshed than all the Chechen terrorists put together. But since Z and K were USG terror masterminds, they’re respected statesmen.
>>So we’ll solve the problem of Islamist terror by finally holding the war crimes trials my college buddies used to dreram about? You know, the ones with LBJ and Nixon as defendents?
We’re not going to stop Islamist terror using the tactics of Zbigniew, Kissinger, Putin, or Cheney. We _could_ stop Islamist terror using the tactics of Stalin or Hitler. If we don’t have the stomach for that, we’ll need the help of the general Muslim population to get rid of the terrorists. This will involve abandoning realpolitik. Making an example of the last generation of realpolitik murderers would be a good start.
For the terrorists to be defeated without genocide, Ahmed Q. Muslim has to like, respect, and most of all TRUST the USG. Then Ahmed Q. will cheerfully rat out the insane terrorist nutjobs in his neighborhood. Then we win.
The realpolitik warriors aren’t likable, respectable, or trustworthy. They’re a liability. They support policies and governments that make life for the locals whose support we need. Some of this is malice, most of this is ineptitude.
As for war crimes trials, South Korea seems to have developed a tradition of having their presidents serve their third “term” in jail. It’s a good idea and one we should consider adopting in the US.
>>T. J. Madison, there is a grain of truth in your comments. But what do you think the Russians should have done?
The tactical handling of yesterday’s hostage situation was about as good as one could reasonably expect. That’s not what I’m concerned with. What bothers me is the handling _strategic_ situation.
The key here is to look at the Average Chechan, the guy the Russians need to have on their side to get rid of the bloodthirsty terrorists. What’s his attitude towards the Russian army and military police?
That’s right, he DESPISES them. And why is that?
About 20% of the general population is at least somewhat unhinged already. When the Russians commit some horrible atrocity (almost never reported here) is it really that surprising that some Chechans crack and go completely insane? Many of the terrorists in the latest incident were women. I find that interesting. I wonder what happened in their recent past to make them crack. Think maybe the treatment of civilians in the siege of Grozny had anything to do with it?
>>And what do you think we should do?
Why don’t we stop cooperating with those groups that are making Ahmed Q. Muslim’s situation worse? We should start with the Egyptian government. We’re paying billions of dollars a year so that Mubarak can run his country poorly, while his state propaganda organs blame all of Egypt’s problems on the US and, of course, the Jews. That needs to end.
T. J. Madison, I fear I’m in partial agreement with Trent on this one. Whatever the grievances the Chechens had with the Russians, whatever Putin or Yeltsin or Stalin or the Romanovs did to them, that’s subsumed if Arab/AQ involvement is proven. At that point they’re not avenging their past but are janizaries in a much bigger and more remorseless cause.
This atrocity did seem to rattle some windows in the US public’s mind — today’s print edition of the SF Chronicle “led with this story”:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/09/04/MNG4T8JVF31.DTL and “this particularly brutal photograph”:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object.cgi?object=/chronicle/pictures/2004/09/04/mn_beslan03.jpg&paper=chronicle&file=MNG4T8JVF31.DTL&directory=/c/a/2004/09/04&type=news was above the fold. That will rattle a few breakfast tables; certainly it’s an image that is as hard to get out of anyone’s mind, more than the SPETZNAZ soldier at the top of this thread, who at least carries a survivor.
As for realpolitik leaders like Mubarak — is “vassal” a better term? — what would replace him? We didn’t like the Shah and we wound up with Khomeini. We didn’t like Somoza and we got the Sandinistas. If Mubarak goes down, what replaces him? Gamaat al-Islamiyya? (Yes, I am aware of past government’s oppression of the Islamists there. We can’t change that now but we do not want them avenging themselves on Mubarak. And us.)
It may be naive to think that democracy would grow in Egypt, or Iraq, or Russia for that matter. That leaves us with despots, if despots are all that a region with no history of democracy can understand. Maybe Kissinger is culpable for making use of such despots — he has plenty to answer for for Chile, never mind Indochina — but there is the matter of who needs trying first, and more urgently, and war crimes trials can wait. But let’s not kid ourselves about bringing democracy to the Middle East, shall we? Realpolitik may not be terribly romantic about bringing democracy to the rest of the world but it does value security.
(And McNamara and Kissinger do have history as a final judge.)
Oh, and Trent? Don’t be so complacent about security at the conventions. Turns out that today’s Chronicle also reports that “two or three infiltrators”:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/09/04/MNG4T8JVF51.DTL did get on the convention floor, on more than one occasion, fortunately with nothing more threatening than pink underwear. Fortunately. NY was a harder target, but as Israel is finding, clever terrorists can penetrate any cordon — especially if the cordon is satisfied that it is secure.
T. J. Madison:
Unfortunately, you’re leaving out part of why he hates them. A significant part came before his grandfather or his grandfather’s grandfather was born under the Tsar. If you don’t believe that resentments can continue to fester after so long a period, what is your explanation for Osama bin Laden’s complaints about al-Andalus (more than 500 years ago)?
There are two alternatives. These age-old resentments can determine the future or they must be forgotten and we will move on. Two alternatives but only one choice. We will move on.
> Kissinger … has plenty to answer for for Chile
On both sides of the ledger, mind you. If you surveyed the average Chilean today, do you think you’d get more than a tiny fraction pining for their long-lost communist experiment?
Dave Schuler
bq. _”These guys basically just walked into a school and took everyone hostage. Why can’t that happen here? What actions would we have to take to prevent it from happening here? Can anyone imagine us taking theses kinds of actions? And what would we do if it did?”_
It has happened and these are just a few links. A google search can yield the information to the questions you are asking.
“Tennessee 9-18-2003”:http://www.dailytexanonline.com/news/2003/09/18/University/Gunman.Takes.Hostages.In.Tennessee-468835.shtml
“Arizona 10-25-2000”:http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/10/24/school.gunman.03/
“Michigan 11-15-2001”:http://www.keystosaferschools.com/CaroHostage111401.htm
Here’s how some schools are dealing with the problem
“MA”:http://www.bellingham.k12.ma.us/district/Crisis%20Mgmt/abduction.html
Here’s how some states are dealing with the problem
“NY”:http://www.troopers.state.ny.us/Schools_&_Communities/Programs/
The what would we do if did happen can be determined from actual occurances of these events (ie that is exactly what we did) and planned courses of action set by school, municipal, and state policy.
As far as imagining us taking these kinds of actions, we do. I lost a brother due to workplace violence at the Coca-Cola plant in Atlanta Georgia on July 7,1989. My brother happened to be working late that evening when a disgruntled employee showed up at the plant and began shooting any and every one in a management position that he could find. The employee didn’t have a clue who my brother was or even know him. The fact he was wearing a white shirt, red tie, and gray pants was enough to identify him as management and a target. When the police arrived on site the shooter barricaded himself in an empty office. There were numerous fatalities that day including the shooter. The police stormed the office and shot him dead. It is pure speculation as to why the employee went ballistic and it something I will never have the complete picture about. After all of these years I still do not blame the police for their actions, nor do I blame coca-cola. The only one to blame for the actions is the shooter and I will never get his story.
What I want to emphasize here is this is nothing new. It has been happening for years and we have been doing little if nothing about it. It hasn’t been until recently that these issues are now more readily available to public scrutiny and have a more drastic effect on society than they ever have prior to 9/11.
To Kirk Parker, that much is true, that Kissinger has some points on his “side of the ledger”, perhaps. But that’s not what he and Pinochet would be charged with in court. And it’s worth noting that the Allende government was rapidly losing credibility and might have collapsed on its own. Without a _golpe de estado._ Without 2 or 3 thousand people _desaparecidos._ Few are pining for the Allende experiment — you’re right about that — but all those _desaparecidos_ did leave some people pining for them.
Mind you, realpolitik does require us to take some dark paths. But we do it where needed, as needed, when we have to. Not because we want to, or, worse, because we’re clueless as to the impact.
After all, bankrolling the anti-Soviet opposition in Chile, then in Nicaragua, then in Afghanistan, seemed like a swell idea at the time.
USMC, my sincere condolences on your loss. I can’t even imagine the depth of your feelings.
I live in Chicago not far from where the Laurie Dann incident took place. My wife walks into schools in that very district every single day. Schools in this area in theory took very strict security measures as a response to the incident.
But I can’t tell you how many times I’ve walked into public and private schools in this area without being stopped or even questioned. If security isn’t taken seriously in the schools here, how can we expect it to be taken seriously anywhere in the U. S.?
And this is violence at a completely different scale than we have seen heretofore. While not without precedent in kind, like 9/11 it is unprecedented in scale. And it can happen here.
Dave
Thank you very much. Although my personal experience is not on the same level as that of organized terrorism it is terrorism none the less. Again my point is the public perception seems to indicate this is a whole new ball game when it really isn’t (with the exception of scale).
Areas such as schools that are affected by such terrorist actions are often met with municipal out cry and go unnoticed on a national level. Municipalities respond in different manners with many different points of view. Subjecting students to back pack searches and metal detection may be acceptable in some areas but all it takes in one complaint to get media attention and ACLU intervention. The public screams for security and may be willing to forego the consequences security measures require. It is when media attention and ACLU intervention override the majority benefit they implicitly assume the risks of a majority consequence under the cloak of individual freedom.
>>T. J. Madison, I fear I’m in partial agreement with Trent on this one. Whatever the grievances the Chechens had with the Russians, whatever Putin or Yeltsin or Stalin or the Romanovs did to them, that’s subsumed if Arab/AQ involvement is proven. At that point they’re not avenging their past but are janizaries in a much bigger and more remorseless cause.
I don’t see how Chechen crazies turning to Al-Qaeda crazies for help in their insane plans affects whether or not the Russians should continue mistreating the Chechen population. The Israelis have the same problem: Insane members of Hamas are blowing up Israeli citizens. This doesn’t mean that mistreating the Israeli Arab and Palestinian populations is going to make things better.
The Chechen and Arab populations are the _solution_ to the problem. Attempts to intimidate and brutalize them into cooperating will work about as well as they are against the US and Russian populace.
>>more than the SPETZNAZ soldier at the top of this thread, who at least carries a survivor.
Ahh, SPETZNAZ. Back in the day it was considered foolish to surrender to SPETZNAZ, because they’d torture you to death for information regardless of what you told them. How times change.
>>We didn’t like the Shah and we wound up with Khomeini. We didn’t like Somoza and we got the Sandinistas.
If by “We” you mean the USG, “We” LOVED the Shah and Somoza. We gave them money and weapons, and they kept the civilian population in line using whatever means necessary. It’s a great system — until the rage of the population boils over. And it’s usually the crazies who challenge the dictators, not us rational folk who value our lives.
>>If Mubarak goes down, what replaces him? Gamaat al-Islamiyya? (Yes, I am aware of past government’s oppression of the Islamists there. We can’t change that now but we do not want them avenging themselves on Mubarak. And us.)
Maybe the USG could try putting some leverage on Mubark to start implementing permanent solutions, like rule of law, increased government accountability, a less corrupt and restrictive regulatory environment, etc. (As if the USG had any real understanding of what these things mean.) The crazies will have a much harder time taking over if the general population views the current government as legitimate.
>>But I can’t tell you how many times I’ve walked into public and private schools in this area without being stopped or even questioned. If security isn’t taken seriously in the schools here, how can we expect it to be taken seriously anywhere in the U. S.?
This form of security is a waste of effort, just like the ridiculous airline safety crap. We’d be safer without it. I say pass out tazers and hollow-points and let the population take care of these terrorist scumbags like real citizens.
>>Unfortunately, you’re leaving out part of why he hates them. A significant part came before his grandfather or his grandfather’s grandfather was born under the Tsar. If you don’t believe that resentments can continue to fester after so long a period, what is your explanation for Osama bin Laden’s complaints about al-Andalus (more than 500 years ago)?
Of course the nutsos will have ridiculous ideas about payback. But the general population won’t listen to them much unless they get periodic “refresher courses” either from State oppression or grotesque abominations like the Madrassas.
Lets look at the Japanese. The USG murdered hundreds of thousands of civilians, yet we don’t have Japanese blowing themselves up in New York. And if we did, the Japanese population and goverment would FedEx the heads of those responsible to the FBI in short order, and that would be the end of it. That’s because the Japanese population is mostly sane and hasn’t been neutralized by mistreatment and bad propaganda. Much of this can be attributed to MacArthur’s wise handling of the situation.