Had an IM with Biggest Guy, who’s in Brazil for 6 months:
BiggestGuy: actually, i had an interesting conversation with the cable guy
Biggest Guy: tried to talk about he thinks other countries are better places to live than the us and whatnot
Biggest Guy: sly little smile on his face, ‘im not trying to offend’
Biggest Guy: like i care
me: interesting…
Biggest Guy: and then i explained he would easily make 20 reas an hour in the us to do the work he does
Biggest Guy: he was much more thoughtful after that
And it made me think of a piece in Vanity Fair linked by democracyarsenal. It’s about the growing crisis in Egypt as the state oppresses harder in response to it’s citizens’ discontent, and how America is seen through that prism.
Read the whole article, but the quotes cited are telling. First:
[Farouk’s] ultimate dream, though, was to win the American-visa lottery. Every year, the U.S. awards some 50,000 work visas around the world, and this was the fourth year in a row that Farouk was applying…
For some minutes, Farouk rhapsodized about what his life would become if he won the lottery, how it would answer all his dreams. “Because I know in America I would be a great success. Everything would be wonderful for me then.” After a short time, though, Farouk seemed to reflect on just how improbably small the odds were of this happening, and grew more solemn.
“You remember my friend Ashraf?” he asked. “He didn’t tell you this, but last year he got an Iraqi visa. He wanted to join the jihad – as a fighter or as a shaheed [martyr], he didn’t care – but so many Egyptian men have gone there that they have closed the land routes. To go to Iraq now, you first have to fly to Syria, and he didn’t have the money for that.”
It sounded like some bad joke, a guy so down on his luck he couldn’t even get himself killed, but then Farouk continued in a soft voice.
“Sometimes I think maybe I should do that. They talk about it a lot in the mosques, about all the young men going there. I think I’m too soft to be a fighter, that it’s not in my spirit, but I don’t know … If I could go and kill some Americans before I die, then maybe my life would have had some meaning.”
The amazing cognitive dissonance here – between desiring the dream of America so badly and then, rejected, feeling that “killing some Americans before I die” is the thing that would give his life meaning – is mind-boggling.
And in there is the seam of belief that we need to somehow exploit to split people away from adopting beliefs that will ultimately mean we will have to kill them.
So…how do we do it? That’s the three-pipe problem.
We do it by bringing a little bit of America to them — the dream and the ability to pursue it, not the culture.
That was the project in Iraq as conceived: not merely to end the tyranny, but to establish a place where people in the Arab world could be free, could have rights and votes and speech. A place where you could choose to stay or go, work for what you desired from the government, just as you please.
It’s proven to be a harder task than many imagined, but I still think it’s a worthwhile one. I reiterate that it’s not the culture but the dream that needs to be brought: it’s not that we need to make Arabs more like us, or less like themselves; it’s not that the need to become “modern” or Western or even non-tribal.
What they need is the ability to pursue their own dreams, and work for the changes they desire without having to kill people. Some may choose a very traditional lifestyle — that is fine. Some may choose to move to other cities, go to school, do something else. If we can help make just that much come true, all of this will have been worth it.
None of that justifies mistakes or miscalculations in the execution of the war, nor is it intended to do so. It just is to say that there is a deep and moral purpose underlying the war: that what we set out to accomplish, more than anything else, was something very good. It was in the best tradition of the American ideal, which is expressed by the motto of our Special Forces: De Oppresso Liber.
This may seem a late day for idealism, but like Chesterton I find that it’s not the ideals that wear out.
This is amazing.
Would you think that a pirate loved you as much as he hated you because in one breath he sighed about what a rich prize your ship is and how rich he’d be if he could board your ship, and in the next breath he was all about spilling your blood?
There is no real mystery here, it is simple, and something that all of us who were once children have done, albeit not for many years. The standard response of the self-absorbed kid to any denial of a perceived prize, is to smash the prize, so no-one else may enjoy it.
Is there really a contradiction?
A common worldview is that Americans are rich and have gotten rich by taking wealth by force or by exploiting the “workers” or by destroying the environment or by using up most of the “world’s” resources. If the person is European, then Americans are fat, stupid, greedy, religious fanatics without culture. If the person is Muslim, then Americans are unbelievers who live immoral lives and attack Muslims. If he person is Mexican, then Americans stole half of Mexico and American wealth is built on the back of Mexican laborers.
On a personal level a potential immigrant wants to better his own life by becoming rich in America. But he doesn’t want to become an American. He wants to retain his own culture, religion, and national loyalty.
He loves the money but not the nation that generates the money.
(Clearly I’ve made gross generalizations. Often first generation immigrants and their children are some of the most patriotic citizens.)
Fly – go click through and read the whole article. It’s much more complex than wanting the booty. It’s wanting a decent life, and knowing that they could get it if only they could make it across.
A.L.
There’s no contradiction.
The guy wants a meaningful life.
Either he
1) gets rich in America
or
2) goes to heaven by killing the infidel.
“… they could get it if only they could make it across …”
That’s not the only way they could get it. They could start getting some of it if they would get out from under the masters who tell them that all their problems are caused by Americans and Jews.
At the end of the day, the problem with repressive governments and economic systems – or with fundamentally broken economies – is that they deny ordinary people a chance to participate in history. Their lives have little or no meaning, and they can’t change the situation. This guy wants his chance to participate in history in a way he thinks is honorable, and he clearly doesn’t see that it will happen in his home country.
One aside: Europeans who toss immigrants into a welfare-state hellhole create a very similar situation. They’re more “humane” about it, but the results are similar…
A.L.,
Okay, I’ve now read the Vanity Fair article. I found it interesting. Each human has a complex story and complex reasons for their behavior. It reminded me of similar articles I’ve read about Havana, Cuba. However, the Vanity Fair article had more of an air of personal tragedy.
I don’t buy the author’s implicit argument that poverty and despair breed terrorism. There is too much evidence to the contrary. Instead of weighing all evidence, pro and con, the author is telling a story that illustrates the author’s own beliefs. The humiliation and shame aspects are tied to Arabic culture and Islam and probably do play a role.
Ultimately for Farouk the American dream did seem to be about the ‘booty’.
Re: #5 from Armed Liberal: “Fly – go click through and read the whole article. It’s much more complex than wanting the booty.”
I read the article, and the bottom line is this:
They think you’re evil, and they want to live where you live.
Historically is that a good thing or a bad thing?
This is not something new and paradoxical, it is something as old as mankind, and it is bad news for the targets.
If we take the pirate analogy as valid, David, what do you do with pirates?
I think the most successful answer was the one the British adopted in the 16th-19th centuries:
If they’re attacking you, kill them.
If they’ve attacked you in the past, and come into your power, hang them.
If they have never attacked you, put them to work.
Any reason we shouldn’t be issuing the modern form of ‘letters of Marque and reprisal’? Why not turn some of these militias into soldiers for democracy in their home countries, through cash payments and other benefits?
I suppose there is in Egypt, which is a nominal ally. Iran, however…
#11 from Grim: “If we take the pirate analogy as valid, David, what do you do with pirates?”
Those who are simply rapacious and do not prefer to attack you rather than any other targets can be put to work if you have enemies you need hit, and if they have not already taken up arms against you.
Those ever inclined to define you as their enemies are the enemies you would put the rapacious but otherwise neutral savages to work against.
#11 from Grim: “Any reason we shouldn’t be issuing the modern form of ‘letters of Marque and reprisal’?”
None, and I am for it.
#11 from Grim: “Why not turn some of these militias into soldiers for democracy in their home countries, through cash payments and other benefits?”
Because Islamic forces are in category two, the people we should be issuing others with ‘letters of Marque and reprisal’ against.
Also, democracy is a fine thing, but regardless, the Islamic game is still: “We win, you lose.” Democracy would not protect Abdul Rahman and it would not protect us. If sharia was about to be established by legitimate democratic procedures, I would advocate not respect for the rules of democracy but either fleeing the country or war.
I say our primary war aim should be to diminish Islam. The spirit in which we go about that is very important. I want us to be at our best. But the goal is what it is.
I want allies who that goal is fine with, not “allies” who can only be kept “allies” – if at all – by abandoning the goal for which the war should be fought.
This does not mean I condemn Ronald Wilson Reagan for issuing Muslim forces with the equivalent of ‘letters of Marque and reprisal’ against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. The Soviot Union was no more our friend than the umma, and better armed. We did what we had to.
But that was then. This is now. The Soviet Union is gone, and we know now what we did not know then about where the game of issuing Muslim forces with the equivalent of ‘letters of Marque and reprisal’ leads. (link) (Good advice.)
Lets roll with this one…
The character Farouk is headed to the mosque. It is a snapshot of a life in a culture we have no clue from this vantage in affluence to understand.
Life in Islam
Its not a place, it is an idea. Rancid as it is to our thinking they go on believing that they are clearly being led by Allah.
The purpose in life is submition to Islam. His statement was made in the center of Islam. Of course you can go to the west but you are taking Islam. Sooner than later the numbers of those seeking affluencce but Islamic will insist on thier filthy cultural rights. like honor killing, genital mutilation, torture and slavery, no ‘makee funney of founding Fathers (PBUH) imagey,’ as thier ‘equal right’ while proselytizing the vision of thier faith, which to the western mind, seems to click to the off position once anyone mentions faith. But in practical terms, nations are built on faith. Mountains move with it. Wars are won with it.
Nations in disrepair lack faith in anything except the blanket tacit corruption of thier own indolence. The wonder of a promising future in sports carreering drug use women groupeys melted in a millisecond high rise apartment hunting turned into terrorist becuase hey it made sense at the time and why not do another line while we are at it- mentality of the real religion of the West and its cult of Mammon $200 mil first round dropout Yankees team snooze.
Any wonder why we still havent found the bottom of this cesspit yet?
Arabs are positive that if they can just make it to America, they too will be rich and successful. After all, how hard can it be if all the dumb, fat, lazy Americans can do it?
So they get here, and guess what? They’re expected to get up in the morning and go to work. Every single morning. And to work for a full eight hours.
No one cares what tribe they come from, nor who their clan is.
Worse, no one blames the Jews for everything, and most people turn their backs on the Arab immigrant when the Arab starts babbling about “Zionist plots”, with a look of distaste and dislike on their faces.
Part of the culture shock is that American cops are very large and wear shiny glasses so it’s hard to read their eyes. They are probably un-bribeable. And they’re scary.
The skills you had in Egypt — whatever they were, banking or teaching or accounting or being a doctor — are not valued in America. You can pump gas or run a QuickEMart; else you’re considered to be uneducated.
But … there is credit, and your wife nags you so to shut her up you buy a lot of stuff on credit. You may buy a limousine, intending to go into business on your own. There is a LOT of paperwork involved, though … insurance and city taxes and state taxes and federal taxes and permits. A *lot* of paperwork. And you’re not very good at customer service or being on time or being flexible about taking calls at odd hours.
And one fine morning, you get up, overwhelmed by debt, your son demands another $500 in pin money from you, your wife is nagging (again) for this, that or the other thing – she may want $10,000 for a quick trip back home to visit her ailing parents or her sister who is pregnant. The phone is ringing with creditors demanding money, and there is MORE paperwork in the mail with “final notice” stamped all over it. Some of the calls and mail are threats to repossess your means of making a living, the limousine, because you haven’t been able to keep up the payments.
Yesterday was the 4th of July and all around you, happy Americans are celebrating their success, their wealth, their bountiful lives. And you, a typical Arab from Egypt, must face the fact that you are a failure. But you can’t go back home and admit that, and you can’t tell your demanding wife and kid that you’re a failure and you need help because an Arab man simply does not do such a thing.
So you get your gun (yes, you’ve acquired a gun while you’re in America), and you drive yourself to one place in the city that you KNOW there will be Jews, because everyone in the Middle East knows that it’s perfectly acceptable to kill Jews.
You take your Arab failure to the El-Al counter at LAX, and you try to shoot as many Jews as possible … because you know that you will be killed in return and then you will be a good Islamic martyr. Instead of “suicide by cop” you’re committing “suicide by Jew” … and you die in a hail of bullets, condemned as another “nutcase Muslim terrorist”, when all you really are is an unprepared Arab trying to grab the golden ring that was promised you in America.
You failed because you were unprepared and you had no idea what you were getting into. The rest of us Real Americans are not in the business of helping new immigrants because this is a sink or swim sort of country, and if you’re not good enough to join us then we don’t want you.
America is about “yearning to be free”.
Of the old culture.
Of the old religion.
Of the old family.
Of the old tribe.
Of the old country.
Islam if it succeeds in America it will destroy the very thing which attracted Islamics to America.
I do not think Islam will succeed in America. We will do what we did to the tribalist who occupied the country before Europeans arrived. Kill enough of them (a lot) until the survivors lose interest in enfocing their tribal ways on the rest of us.
The only good Indian is a dead Indian will morph into “the only good Muslim….”
We will not play by Marquis of Queensbury rules with Islam any more than we would do so with agressive Nazis.
Just wanting a piece of the economic pie does not make you an American.
“The amazing cognitive dissonance here – between desiring the dream of America so badly and then, rejected, feeling that “killing some Americans before I die” is the thing that would give his life meaning – is mind-boggling.”
I had a somewhat similar experience in Saudi Arabia:
“The following conversation took place in Saudi Arabia in the summer of 2002. It includes myself (IS), my dad’s friend (DF), and his son (FS).”
“Read it all.”:http://isaacschrodinger.typepad.com/isaacschrodinger/2004/12/unreal.html
sheesh, armed, it is human psychology.
here’s a bit from my jihaadi taxonmy, that dr. yes linked, btw. sorry, blogspot. 😉
[ Link to ‘Quantum Ghosts’ post ‘Jihaadi Taxonomy’ at verboten Bl*gspot via “tinyurl.com”:http://tinyurl.com/yerf6y –Marshall Festus ]
Percieved rejection radicalizes these guyz, just like the Columbine Killahs. I betcha their psych profiles would have the same markers.
david blue, pirates is just law enforcement, proveably ineffective.
we wiped out pirates by wiping out their resupply. they were seperable from the population they preyed on.
jihaadis are not, they are embedded.
genocide of the host population is the only way to kill our way out of the jihaadi factory.
that is why we have to think of something better.
can we completely get rid of the microsoft geeks or the columbine killahs embedded in our population?
nope, but we can reduce their incidence.
Re: #16 from Isaac Schrodinger:
I followed your link. (link) It lives up to its advertising.
Sadly, this kind of illogic is indeed mainstream in the Muslim world. This`is one reason I think we need to look at Islam on a systemic level and beat it on that level, rather than get hooked up on the endlessly multiplying insane grievances of every individual Mohammed, Khalid, Abdul and Fatima.
#18 from matoko_mu’tazhilah: “david blue, pirates is just law enforcement, proveably ineffective.
we wiped out pirates by wiping out their resupply. they were seperable from the population they preyed on.
jihaadis are not, they are embedded.”
I agree.
#18 from matoko_mu’tazhilah: “genocide of the host population is the only way to kill our way out of the jihaadi factory.
that is why we have to think of something better.”
I’ve moved on to discussing new ideas on “something better” in this thread. (link)
In passing, I don’t like the word “genocide” because it’s been heavily abused in Australia, to cover everything from the Holocaust to giving Aboriginal kids as much white culture as possible rather than encouraging racial and tribal separatism. Once a term is used systematically to obscure the difference between school rooms and gas chambers, it ceases to be good language.