A political entrepreneur who fraudulently registered a number of California residents as Republican voters – when they thought they were signing petitions – has been arrested, in part because he fraudulently claimed to be a California resident, as is required by law for those who register voters.
The left blogs are rightfully chestbeating over this – and it supports my contention of widespread efforts to game the system. I don’t begin to have enough information yet to know if this is a real issue or a tu quoque. But I’m beginning to think through a way to look back at this election and try and study the real impact – if any – of registration and voter fraud.
This is the part of the story that got my attention:
bq. _”In a written statement Sunday, the state Republican Party called the charges against Jacoby “politically motivated.” The party said the charges do not support accusations from voters and Democratic officials that YPM has been duping voters into joining the GOP.”_
bq. _”The statement accused Secretary of State Debra Bowen, who announced the arrest, of “using her office to play politics.””_
bq. _”Bowen is a Democrat.”_
If the story is correct as written, Mark Jacoby is a typical con man running a scam.
The state Republican Party’s aggressive defense of Mark Jacoby raises the stakes.
Once again, can we not all agree that voter registration fraud is a serious offense, no matter who does it, against the legitimacy of our electoral system? Will those who inevitably come out to condemn this also condemn ACORN? Will those condemning ACORN condemn this? (For the record, fraudulently registering people is wrong, and if the facts are as alleged, I’m fine with throwing the book at the guy.)
If that’s not the exact same situation as the ACORN regos — ie he’s doing it for financial reasons — then I have NFI what the point of that was.
It’s a secret ballot. If you register a democrat as a republican without their knowledge then you’ve achieved nothing other than defrauding the people paying you to register voters.
Sure, it’s not good for someone to screw with your registration like that, but it doesn’t really effect your vote.
The GOP cry of politically motivated prosecution would appear to be particularly lame. In fact, not just lame but retarded.
If you had just spent 2 weeks talking up your opponent’s links to drugs and 1 single member of your team got busted with drugs, you don’t fkn blame the cops for that, you retards. You stamp that 1 guy’s ticket immediately and then get back to your opponent.
Fkn children running that campaign, honestly.
If that’s not the exact same situation as the ACORN regos — ie he’s doing it for financial reasons — then I have NFI what the point of that was.
It’s a secret ballot. If you register a democrat as a republican without their knowledge then you’ve achieved nothing other than defrauding the people paying you to register voters.
Sure, it’s not good for someone to screw with your registration like that, but it doesn’t really effect your vote.
The GOP cry of politically motivated prosecution would appear to be particularly lame. In fact, not just lame but retarded.
If you had just spent 2 weeks talking up your opponent’s links to drugs and 1 single member of your team got busted with drugs, you don’t fkn blame the cops for that, you retards. You stamp that 1 guy’s ticket immediately and then get back to your opponent.
Fkn children running that campaign, honestly.
If a group is fraudulently registering voters as a means of facilitating fraudulent votes in the actual election, then I’d agree that it’s a serious problem. What other harm does it do?
#2 from Jeff Medcalf:
bq. _”Once again, can we not all agree that voter registration fraud is a serious offense, no matter who does it, against the legitimacy of our electoral system?”_
Sure can, as far as I’m concerned. I think it’s a moral offense against democracy in general.
#2 from Jeff Medcalf:
bq. _”Will those who inevitably come out to condemn this also condemn ACORN? Will those condemning ACORN condemn this? (For the record, fraudulently registering people is wrong, and if the facts are as alleged, I’m fine with throwing the book at the guy.)”_
I’m with you all the way.
It floods the system with noise making actual voter fraud much easier.
I don’t care which side is doing it, they should be locked up. One thing that is certain- the more perceived cheating by one side makes it far more likely the other side will try to cheat.
#7 from Umbriel:
bq. _”If a group is fraudulently registering voters as a means of facilitating fraudulent votes in the actual election, then I’d agree that it’s a serious problem. What other harm does it do?”_
It creates opportunities for fraud whether it was intended to or not. It makes it harder to detect fraud and to confirm that there was no fraud, thus damaging the mandates that honest elections should provide. It holds up honest voters, as poll workers have to grind through bogus data – thanks, creeps! And by supporting the deadly idea that everyone does it, so we might as well get in for our chop it help corrupt an institution vital to the free state.
Throw the book at the bums, if the truth is as reported.
People attempting to game the election shouldn’t be locked up. They should lose their right to vote in the future.
#12 from Jeff Medcalf:
bq. _”People attempting to game the election shouldn’t be locked up. They should lose their right to vote in the future.”_
…
bq. _”After complaints by voters and Democratic Party officials, several agencies launched investigations into Jacoby’s activities. They included the Los Angeles County district attorney’s office, which issued the warrant for his arrest earlier this month on felony charges of voter registration fraud and perjury.”_
That means he’s threatened with both penalties.
Now that we’re talking about possible GOP election fraud, can we get a more positive reaction to reforms like photo ID for voting and purple finger confirmation?
Kudos to AJL for linking the Oct. 18th LAT story “Voters say they were duped into registering as Republicans”:http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fraud18-2008oct18,0,1216330.story?track=ntothtml in comment #65 in “this earlier thread.”:http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/voting_fraud.php
There’s no excuse for any political party engaging in this flimflammery.
The LAT article linked in this post has the Calif. Republicans issuing a statement calling the charges against Jacoby “politically motivated,” and denying that YPM has been duping voters into registering as Republicans. The statement also accuses Secretary of State Debra Bowen of “using her office to play politics.”
Talk about doubling down. The Republican musts really, really trust their contractor to issue a damn-the-reports blanket endorsement like that.
First Rule of Holes. You gonna believe me or your own lyin’ eyes? And all that.
So it’ll either be spectacular vindication of the Republican Party as SecSate Bowen takes a huge fall, or a humiliating ACORN-lite moment. Anyone want to bet on vindication? Bueller? Anyone?
Outsidethebeltway had the right idea. You’ll continue to have this problem (even more so now that it has gotten publicity) if this system of registrations continues.
And the kicker is, this guy was running a scam, but his intentional fraud won’t effect a voter to the degree that someone innocently taking down a mistake in name/address will.
Personally I can’t see any reason other than widespread illiteracy that would necessitate people needing others to fill out a form for them.
If voter roles are considered serious enough to have fraud penalties attached then the registration process really ought to be conducted more seriously than a petition to have a stop sign put up on a street corner.
There’s a strange “who profits?” angle to this Jacoby/YPM fraud (allegations of fraud).
As discussed on prior threads, there are plausible motives for ACORN’s actions and alleged actions beyond the canvasser picking up X dollars per filled-out form.
In this case, the LAT says the Republican Party pays YPM $7 to $12 for each registration it secures, so that piece is analogous. But what would the Republicans gain from YPM’s misdeeds?
* A bunch of Democrats who figure out in November that they’ve been ‘flipped’–and get really ticked off, as they vote for Obama.
* Other Democrats who don’t notice when they vote for Obama on Nov. 5 that they are now nominal Republicans (but who figure it out later–say at the next primary–and get really ticked off).
* “Some” (the LAT doesn’t estimate how many) Democrats who YPM signed up for absentee status who may be unable to vote at the polling station–and will be mad as all get-out.
All this–and the predictable blizzard of news stories about it–helps the California Republicans how?
This would make more sense as a false-flag provocation, hatched by unscrupulous Republican-haters… except that the state party has embraced Jacoby and YPM. Lie down with dogs…
bq. Now that we’re talking about possible GOP election fraud, can we get a more positive reaction to reforms like photo ID for voting and purple finger confirmation?
Don’t you remember the narrative from the other thread? This is _registration_ fraud, not _voting_ fraud, and therefore we need no oversight or checking!
And if you suggest otherwise, you’re paranoid and/or trying to intimidate voters.
Keep the defense in mind as well. The first line of defense for anybody caught up in voting fraud is that the charges are politically motivated and the intent is to suppress voting.
Obama has made that charge on ACORN’s behalf already, and of course ACORN is saying the same. The GOP now will make the same charge, no matter the merits of the case.
There is a serious ‘good for the goose, good for the gander’ spiral of corruption in the offing here. As polarized as the nation is right now, this issue CAN spur real violence. I don’t think anybody wants to see fist fights breaking out at polling places (or worse) but that is the direction we are heading in.
#16 —
bq. The first line of defense for anybody caught up in voting fraud is that the charges are politically motivated and the intent is to suppress voting.
Obama and his campaign presumably calculated that supporting ACORN won’t alienate very many people who matter for the election. True believers will say “so what” or “feature not bug,” Obama-leaning centrist and low-information voters will see the whole fracas as one more not-very-important and not-very-clear issue. I think they’re probably right.
Re: YPM, the modest-sized Republican core will probably also say “so what” (though there’s no obvious “feature” for them to like). But the spirited criminal-lawyer-style defense of YPM and attack on Sec. of State Bowen would seem to invite alienation of centrists. If the Reps have good reasons to believe that YPM’s and Jacoby’s conduct has been proper, the LAT hasn’t exactly bent over backwards to explain why. “We was duped” wouldn’t be an award-winning defense even if true, but it’s better than doubling down on a losing bet. Perhaps the media focusing on spinning the initial take, with added “confusing” facts to come later? Or not…
Look, I’ll go so far as to say that anyone who is caught with fraudulent registrations should be penalized… ideally with some kind of fine. If he/she is making fraudulant registrations in an attempt to create illegal votes, that should be jail time. Also, anyone convicted of illegal voting should be jail time.
I think this guy should be given a rather large fine… enough to scare those that would consider doing the same thing. I’m not ready to accuse of conspiracy yet though.
I agree conspiracy is a big word. Elections are tough- when there is conspiracy to commit fraud etc in the business realm, or even government fraud, the timing isnt necessarilly crucial. If you lock somebody up next year the message is still sent.
But with elections you have a timing problem. By the time we figure out what happened the elections are already over. It seems unlikely at this point that ACORN will influence the presidential election (though not impossible), but there are dozens of local and federal elections that _will_ be close and could be swayed by fraudulent voting. How do you go about correcting that nightmare if a conspiracy was proved a year from now (likely longer).
So I do think the idea of innocent until proven guilty is not applicable in a political sense (we arent trying anyone, this is a political questions right now). ACORN’s pattern of activity is at least suspcicious, and if evidence starts turning up that voter fraud on a wide scale is likely, i dont like the idea of evidence being collected in secret for a grand jury as per the norm. Ultimately the public interest is best served by knowing _before_ the election that there is fraud in the offing.
And that applies to potential fraud by Republicans or anyone else as well. One thing i’m very suspicious of with ACORN is their work in helping to procure mortgages. This was a huge, federally funded program and ACORN collected tens of thousands of names, social security numbers, etc. We should have a full audit of that information, and if it starts matching up with voter rolls, and if any of those people didnt register, then we certainly have a conspiracy. Backed by federal money no less. That is the potential smoking gun.
Jeff Medcalf:
I disagree. Attempts to subvert the democratic process should be prosecuted as treason, equal or worse to betraying state secrets.
Since we’re all candy-ass liberals now, without even enough ambition to hang child-murderers, that means we need to put some people in federal prison. With free cable TV.
This would make more sense as a false-flag provocation, hatched by unscrupulous Republican-haters… except that the state party has embraced Jacoby and YPM. Lie down with dogs…
No, it makes perfect sense.
The guy gets paid for registering republicans. He registers anyone and just marks them down as republicans. They show up, vote however they want and know nothing about it.
Unlike the ACORN registrations where those idiots are just making up details, this guy’s registrations don’t bounce when checked against address lists etc.
What the GOP gets out of this is the same thing that ACORN gets, screwed out of some money.
The California GOP has been embarrassed by steadily shrinking numbers, notwithstanding their success in electing Arnold and also the State Insurance Commissioner. The theory, which I admit doesn’t seem very persuasive, is that the GOP was eager to announce registration gains to improve morale, rather than moderate the views that have led the public away from them.
As far as I know, ACORN has been trying to flag registration forms that appear bogus before submitting them to the state. Mickey Mouse is not going to show up. I am concerned about absentee ballot fraud, but I don’t see evidence that ACORN is facilitating that, nor that the various ID requirements will have any impact on it.
The Ohio GOP is now making robocalls accusing Democrats of an attempt to rig the election.
So we equate this with Acorn? If so, It’s obvious the Rebub’s are terrible at this. A isolated (I hope) incident in California, a state Obama is going to win, agianst multiple elections and multiple states for Acorn.
_”As far as I know, ACORN has been trying to flag registration forms that appear bogus before submitting them to the state”_
And you know this because its what ACORN is claiming now. Is there any independent corroboration for this?
Plains: The difference is that we have in this case we have someone actually arrested on specific charges. Acorn’s offices have been raided in several states, but keep in mind, in many of those states Acorn had already been “working with authorities”:http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/07/acorn_nevada_offices_raided.html to track invalid registrations.
Keep in mind, if multiple people are arrested from different ACORN groups, than we’re looking at conspiracy. Until then, we’re basically working on assumptions.
Kilo – it’s a bigger problem than that. He’s telling people they are signing a petition and registering them – which means if they are already registered, there’s no problem – but if they aren’t, we’ve just created a zombie registration.
Zombie registrations themselves don’t effect elections, but – like leaving unsigned blank checks sitting around – they offer avenues for fraud.
A.L.
Winds of Change readers will be glad to know that the New Mexico GOP claim of 28 fraudulent voters has been debunked. Perhaps they can now devote their attention to why WTC-7 fell down.
It’s interesting at the amount of attention the mainstream media illuminati are giving to this. What about all the ACORN talk that the Ivy-Leaguers blew off? If you’re going to spend time talking about this, bring ACORN, which was more serious, up again.
AJL #27 —
The link you offer doesn’t exactly match your description of what it says. Also, to my knowledge, it wasn’t voter registration issues that caused the collapse of any of the WTC buildings.
OK, AMac, I’ll rephrase what the link says, and what I said before.
ACORN claims to have contacted local election officials and according to them all 28 disputed voters exist. The GOP had already played up the “obvious” fake voter “Duran Duran” without bothering to check that there was such a person in the Albuquerque phone book, which left me with little confidence in their screening.
The GOP had announced a conference call with important information about ACORN vote fraud, but when confronted with ACORN’s claim and told to put up or shut up, they retreated to unsourced and unverified generalities.
It looks to me, frankly, as if ACORN has the upper hand in this one.
As I’m sure you realize, my suggestion that they turn to the WTC is because their argumentation is reaching WTC-Truther levels of desperation. I notice, for example, it is now the received view that Democrats who controlled the Statehouse stole the 2004 WA governor election. Leaving aside for the moment whether the election was stolen at all, the WA Secretary of State was a Republican. If you want to argue he was duped, go ahead. (In the same file: Nixon would have lost in 1960 even if he had won in Illinois. You can look it up.)
Xpressions:
Please note that we generally frown on “sock puppets” here. I recommend that you pick a single nickname and stick with it. Thank you.
Marshal Nortius “Big Tuna” Maximus, acting in that capacity.
AJL #31 —
Thanks for the rephrasing.
You may be confusing two similar statements. “The N.M. GOP fails to tout their claims of 28 instances of voter fraud during a conference call today” is not the same as “All claims that ACORN has engaged in voter registration fraud are debunked.”
Two minutes on Google brings up “this compendium”:http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-complete-guide-to-acorn-voter-fraud/ of a few dozen ACORN-centric voter registration irregularities. I chose it because each of the allegations is itself linked. For reasons that have been discussed in recent Winds of Change threads that you have contributed to, the stupidity of New Mexico Republicans (if that’s what it turns out to be) is not the solution to the problems and illegalities highlighted by the ACORN way of conducting voter registration.
If this was a Republican-friendly group that was gaming the electoral system to benefit Republicans, would you be as sanguine? If their defense, year after year, was to say, “Well, when we hand in reams of forms, we often identify some of the obvious probable forgeries; no need to alter our procedures!,” would you find that settles the matter?
No need to answer.
As far as the 2004 Washington gubernatorial race, I wasn’t aware that Stefan Sharkansky’s numerous and documented claims as to how the outcome was changed by fraudulent voting had been convincingly rebutted. We could discuss one of many likely-titled posts from “this collection.”:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS236US237&q=site%3Awww.soundpolitics.com+Fraud+Rossi+2004+&btnG=Search Incidentally, Jim Miller coined the phrase “Distributed Vote Fraud” in the course of writing about the aftermath of that campaign. The first few posts on “this list”:http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww.soundpolitics.com+distributed+vote+fraud&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS236US237 make interesting reading, and seem to apply to some of ACORN’s activities in 2008 races, as well.
That Washington’s Secretary of State was a Republican is interesting, but wouldn’t seem to prove much of anything. Unless all such Republicans can be relied upon to be paragons of efficiency, probity, and virtue. That may not have been your intended point.
#12 from AMac:
bq. _”The LAT article linked in this post has the Calif. Republicans issuing a statement calling the charges against Jacoby “politically motivated,” and denying that YPM has been duping voters into registering as Republicans. The statement also accuses Secretary of State Debra Bowen of “using her office to play politics.””_
That was what got my attention. Those are extreme charges. You mustn’t just make them and forget them. If you say that, you’ve got to back it up.
#12 from AMac:
bq. _”So it’ll either be spectacular vindication of the Republican Party as SecSate Bowen takes a huge fall, or a humiliating ACORN-lite moment. Anyone want to bet on vindication? Bueller? Anyone?”_
I’m not betting, I’m waiting. Time is going by, while these extreme charges remain unsupported and the state Republican Party’s credibility leaks away.