From the discussion below:
The only thing that will break the culture of self-destruction (suicide bombers kill the legitimate goals of the Palestinians) is an end to the occupation, removal of the settlements, and a fair settlement to the problem created in 1948. Saying “everyone occupies everyone else’s land” is completely false, no one is occupying someone else’s land to the extent is has happened to the Palestinians. Simple Zionist history (as you seem unlikely to pick up Tom Segev or Benny Morris) will clue you in to the simple facts behind this conflict: the Palestinians lost most of their land in 1948, and have had the rest occupied since 1967. There is no historical parallel for one modern society displacing another modern society and then occupying the remainder of that land for 35 years.
That being said, it will be impossible for Israel to withdraw (something a majority of Israelis, myself included want) under the terrorist bombing situations. However I disagree completely with Sharon’s response, which is only fueling the conflict. Does anyone remember in December when we had close to 20 days of quiet on the Israeli side? Immediately after that Karmi was assassinated. It is a cycle that BOTH sides are perpetuating, and BOTH sides must be “broken”. Israel must break the fanatics who are driving the settlement policy, which is really the ethnic cleansing policy in slow-motion. Palestinians must break their claims to their former land and accept fully that their country will be on the W. Bank. Only once BOTH sides have been broken, when the extremist ultra-nationalists on both sides are in the margins, will we move away from this.
— Eric Pinhas
I don’t completely agree, and obviously have some thoughts but this was a good enough comment to promote to the blog and see what other folks think. There are some other smart comments in this thread (I can’t figure out how to link to a discusson thread, sorry…), so take a look, please.
Date: 08/04/2002 00:00:00 AM
Oh well said Joel. I meet those self same fanatics every Saturday night at a Peace Coalition vigil. The have no rational arguments left except to shout abuse at us. You might like to visit the Gush Shalom web site for some extreme views on the other side.
Date: 08/04/2002 00:00:00 AM
“If it weren’t for the Greater Israel fanatics, Israel could have long ago achieved the same kind of peace settlement with Jordan that it achieved with Egypt”Excuse me, Joel, but you do know that the Arab lands west of the Jordan were allocated to a Republic of Palestine, not a Kingdom of Jordan; that the occupation of those lands was (despite the proclamation of their annexation of Abdullah I) was no less illegal that Israel’s occupation; and that Jordan gave up its pretense of representing Arabs west on the river in 1974?
Date: 08/02/2002 00:00:00 AM
Terminus, you’re wrong. The most recent poll (you can search my site to find the URL) has 51.2 percent of the Palestinian people wanting Israel destroyed. And I suspect that number is light on the actual truth, since many Palestinians are smart enough to realize they shouldn’t really admit to what they really want.Second, the charter of the PLO calls for the destruction of Israel. The official position of Hamas is the destruction of Israel, the goal of Islamic Jihad and the Palestinian Liberation Front is the destruction of Israel. The official teaching material of the PA shows a map of the region with NO Israel. The official PA media promotes a no-Israel solution. The right of return is all about destroying Israel.The current Palestinian cause, as it stands today, is totally incompatible with the existence of Israel, which is why no smart Israeli has any trust whatsoever for most Palestinians.
Date: 08/03/2002 00:00:00 AM
Sharon has no longrange plan to end the violence. Given his claim that Netzarim is Tel Aviv, mayybe he doesn’t want to. Netzarim is an isolated settlement in the Gaza Strip that exists principally to show the Palestinians who’s boss on land allocation.See this Ha’aretz columnist.
Date: 08/02/2002 00:00:00 AM
Wrong. The Palestinians want the complete elimination of Israel and the expulsion of all Jews. Withdrawal from the “occupied” territories will do nothing to stop the suicide bombers. The Israelis tried that on their Lebanese border, and Hamas continues the violence there.The only thing that will break the psychotic death cult that now grips the Palestinians is . . . to break the death cult. You know, the way we broke the Nazi death cult and the Japanese death cult. By killing the psychotics and shaming their supporters.If anyone has any real live examples to the contrary, do please post.
Date: 08/02/2002 00:00:00 AM
The statement “The Palestinians want the complete elimination of Israel and the expulsion of all Jews” is ridiculous on its face. Look up the word “generalization” and report back. I’m sure some Palestinians want that, and I’m equally sure that some Israelis want the complete elimination of the Palestinians, and some Americans think we should nuke the whole area and kill them all. But none of these are the official policy in the relevant governments. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the stated policy of all three governments is for a two-state solution with the precise treatment of the settlements being up for negotiation. We have reason to doubt the veracity of each government’s stated policy, based on actions, but that’s the policy. And that’s the framework under which the three sides are laboring, belatedly and half-heartedly, toward a solution.
Date: 08/02/2002 00:00:00 AM
Re: the comment that Hamas is still operating on the Lebanese border – do you have some sort of new, secret information or just the complete inability to tell the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah with their different nationalities, ideologies, and actions?
Date: 08/02/2002 00:00:00 AM
As far as occupations go, it may not be common in the western world, but Tibet, Timor, and Taiwan (there were indegenous people after all) come to mind. And that’s just the T’s. Certainly part of the problem are the extremists influencing policy on both sides. It seems that one of the downsides of parliamentary democracy(at least for the group with a democracy…) is the ability of fringe groups to powerfully influence policy. Our system may produce Republicrats, but it also limits extremist influence.wrharper, fellow Westsider/rider
Date: 08/02/2002 00:00:00 AM
I agree completely. It’s not just the extremist Palestinians who have ‘never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity’ since the Oslo process began; it’s also the Likud and its even more extremist ‘Greater Israel’ allies. I’ve just finished reading Avi Shlaim’s revisionist The Iron Wall, published in 2000, just before the latest Intifada hit full swing. Shlaim is more than a bit naive about the sincerity and/or credibility of Israel’s various potential peace partners over the years, but I purposely chose it to restore some balance to my increasingly hawkish stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If it weren’t for the Greater Israel fanatics, Israel could have long ago achieved the same kind of peace settlement with Jordan that it achieved with Egypt: land for peace. The whole situation has now declined into a battle between give-no-peace extremists on one side and give-no-land extremists on the other. Set against the wider context of the horrific Arab world, I’m still staunchly pro-Israeli, but Shamir, Sharon, and especially the eloquent but devious Netanyahu deserve a large measure of blame for sowing this harvest of Palestinian hatred and despair (which hatred and despair in no way justify the deliberate targeting of civilians).