Avedon Carol has sent some traffic over, so I went to take a look.
Sigh. Its frustrating to me. I feel like some kind of linguistic hermaphrodite, because when I talk about things like patriotism (and in her case earlier, the Pledge issue), I feel like people who Id probably somewhat agree with on many things – look at me like Im speaking Aramaic.
Carol has a long, discursive post, where she starts with my comment about liberalism and patriotism, and drifts onward to a general comment about the Right wing folks (the Ann Coulters etc.) are crackpots, with what I take as the clear inference that I’m on Ann’s side.
Well, heres what Ive said about Ann Coulter
THE WOOSH OF CREDIBILITY FLYING OUT THE WINDOW and COULTER’S ROOMATE … IN HELL
Yeah, Im, a fan alright
She then defends a bitter joke about Kathryn Harris (the one where someone watched the coverage of the Ryder truck bring in the ballots in Fla and hoped OJ had murdered her) by explaining
This is more of a joke about the famous slo-mo car chase than anything else, but considering the nightmare that Harris had subjected America to at the time, the real outrage is that the woman isn’t in jail right now. Having committed significant crimes, she then ran for Congress and was elected by Republicans.
Right. That makes it OK, then
I just dont get it. And, obviously, she doesnt get me.
That doesnt matter much to either one of us, except
that her group is closer to the seats of liberal power than mine, and they keep getting their butts kicked (yeah, yeah, I know Gore won the popular vote, and this election was close
but the Constitution doesnt give the popular vote winner the Oval Office, and most Presidential parties lose seats mid-term).
Perhaps this snippet of dialog will help explain why:
From LiveJournal (via A Small Victory) in response to a post on Pearl Harbor
(note that the bold comments are from Chuck Simmons, the blog author)
remember what happened to a nation that attacked us?
yeah, ‘civilized’ america dropped two nuclear bombs and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings, in addition to causing untold environmental damage. Real noble of us. Many things make me proud to be an american; our ultimate response to pearl harbor is one that definitely does not…
The commenter goes on
There is a moral distinction between us and them (Germans and Japanese). They made war on us and any suffering they had was due solely to their actions. They made an immoral choice and it caught up with them.
Again, it’s not so cut-and-dried as you’d like to think. Judge, judge, judge. “It’s all their fault.” It’s so easy to say.
And on
Why aren’t you proud to be an American?
I AM proud to be an American, I’m just not proud of some of our history, and some of the present-day things our government is done. I’d have to be crazy not to be proud. Unfortunately, those things that I am not proud of are things that put me in jeopardy in other parts of the world. If I were to travel outside North America, I’d sure as hell try my best to pass as a Canadian. Not because I don’t like being American, but because I don’t want anyone killing me because of my government’s actions.
And finally, if America were power hungry, as you imply, demonstrate our empire. Who are we subjugating? Whose lands do we rape and pillage for our own benefit?
The world is our empire. Look at all the places where we have troops stationed (granted, some of those places want us, but others do not). We are the superpower–what responsibility comes with that is what we’ve given ourselves. The European Union is rather strong these days–what would happen if we take a little step back and put ourselves on EQUAL ground with those nations? Would the world fall apart? I think not. There are plenty of places in the world (SE Asia and Africa are good examples) who need plenty of help of the non-war variety. Food and medicine would be a good start. Where are we? Doing some, but not nearly enough to make a dent. What if we spend all the money we’re putting into this Iraqi “war” on HELPING instead of KILLING? Sure, it sucks to live in Iraq now, but at least they HAVE a fairly stable government. At least they HAVE money. People are starving to death everyday, people are dying from easily cureable diseases and we are spending billions cranking out weapons of destruction and getting ready to cause MORE death in the world? Not too honorable of us.
Get my point?? This is how mainstream America sees liberals
because the cutting edge of liberalism in America is dominated by voices like this.
We can blame it on the big bad media. We can blame it on the conservatives who set the agenda. We seem to be blaming it on everyone but ourselves.
When we do, maybe we can get some liberal things done in this country.
(edited for spelling)
(formatted for clarity)
No argument from me. Nicely said.
I agree liberals will have to clean up their own mess. Unfortunately for liberals, each mess is an individual human being.
I have no idea how you’re going to do it.
Your quotes of from AC indicate what the conservatives dream of.
Her positions seem ego-driven. “Look at me. See how angry and at the same time intelligent I am. See how I know the real thing as opposed to the patriotic myths of the rednecks.”
Facts are meaningless in the face of such a drive for ego-indulgence.
It also means you’ll play hell getting her or anybody like her to stop.
Well, anyway, it’s your problem.
I just watch and smile (politely, of course).
Unfortunately, most Americans’ image of a liberal has been defined and publicised by the Right Wing Propaganda Machine. AC simply plays into the stereotypes.
See my many posts on this topic on other liberal blogs (I’m not well today, so I won’t go and look up the references).
I love the notion of a Right Wing Propaganda Machine. Does it have lots of dials and flashing lights? Is it operated by some alien-looking guy with an abnormally large forehead and an mysterious Eastern European accent named “Dr. Distorto”? Any relationship to the Wayback Machine?
My view of liberals is defined by what they say themselves, in their blogs, on TV, in the halls of Congress, and in their newspaper columns. And, with a small number of exceptions (AL, Ted Barlow, Jeff Cooper, a few others) I don’t like what I see and hear. (Although, frankly, I don’t blame liberals who don’t like much of what they see and hear from conservatives)
For instance, I don’t like Chuck Nolan’s condescending view of “most Americans” as too stupid to see what he regards as the obvious truth. Those stupid Americans, falling for the genial smile again, and not seeing the great wisdom of left-wing policies! It can’t be because they disagree intellectually or philosophically, it must be the Propaganda Machine! Where are Gore-man and Raines Boy to destroy Dr. Distorto and his False Consciousness Cloud?
Way to prove A.L.’s point, Chuck!
This sort of nonsense from the “far left liberals” (and sometimes from the rational liberals) will continue until the liberals acknowledge that the “conservatives” agree with 95% of the goals of the liberals, but that they disagree on how to obtain those goals. Liberals want to give food and medicine to other countries, whereas conservatives want to help those countries get to the point where they can provide their own food and medicines. There are many other examples. Caveat: I am not talking about the ultra right wing conservatives here; I am talking about the “normal” conservatives. Dividing the country into two pieces based on their views might reflect the political parties, but the reality is that the country is divided into three pieces: the far right (@ 10-20%), the far left (@ 10-20%), and the middle (@ 60-80%). It is predominantly this middle group that shares many of the same goals but differs as to the means to accomplish those goals.
“It’s not so cut-and-dried as you might think”.
Well. I wonder how many more Americans would have died in ’45, had Harry Truman had the subtle understanding of the world this nebbish claims to have.
We get attacked, are forced to fight a bitter, no-holds barred fight we didn’t ask for, and instead of ending it quickly when we get a chance, our leaders should have displayed some sort of elevated moral understanding and allowed many more thousands of our troops die so as to avoid an unseemly act of extreme violence. Is that what he’s saying?
And his apparent readiness to excuse Japan (and Germany?), dismissing the (what seems to me, rather ultimately salient) fact that they started it — What can you say?
Of course, I’m sure he would quibble about whether it was militarily necessary to drop the bombs; probably even question whether we really didn’t ask for the Pearl Harbor attack.
I pray we never have a fool like him (and his) in power at a time of real international danger.
Hey, my post wasn’t about you, it was about this guy that wrote to me and for some reason seemed to think that Bill Maher making stupid comments somehow changed the fact that Ann Coulter is a crackpot. Well, it doesn’t. I didn’t “defend” Maher’s crummy joke, either. But I did point out that while “our” crackpots (and Maher isn’t really one of ours anyway, but I referred to that dopey actor, who I slammed) are just actual entertainers who fortunately don’t get heard on talk shows every day, the Republicans elect theirs (Trent Lott).
While my blog has a conservative slant, I do hold many ideals in common with liberals. That is why I try to distinguish between liberals and far left liberals when writing about such things.
The same goes for the far right. Too much extremism on either side makes the whole damn bunch of us look idiotic.
Oh, what rubbish. What I had to say about the post at Armed Liberal was what I wrote in the comments to Armed Liberal. What I wrote in my post was a response to to the guy who seemed to think that stupid comments from some actor somehow meant Ann Coulter was not a crackpot. I wasn’t responding to Armed Liberal there at all. (And, by the way, while “our” crackpots are by and large just individuals in the entertainment industry who shoot their mouths off once in a while, the Republicans elect theirs (Trent Lott).
(Now let’s see if this posts, this time.)
“Right Wing Propaganda Machine”–
Another problem with the far-left is that they let some really stupid people do their thinking for them instead of trying it for themselves. Take the above slogan. Nowhere to be found a month ago, now every leftist seems to believe this is the magic incantation that explains all their failures and will lead them to great successes in the future. What exactly is it about this slogan makes anyone who isn’t a leftist and doesn’t agree with it want to change their views?
Until left-wing extremists stop thinking in terms of what looks good on a bumper sticker or sounds good when chanted by a mob, they will continue their slide into irrelevancy
My God. The advocation of diplomatic solutions to problems instead of blind destruction is “liberal nonsense?”
To those who commented here to this effect, please stop calling yourselves the following things:
1) liberal
2) humane
Thanks.
Avedon:
“And, by the way, while “our” crackpots are by and large just individuals in the entertainment industry who shoot their mouths off once in a while, the Republicans elect theirs.”
Much cursing at your incredible A) stupidity, B) dishonesty, or C) both, take your pick.
All I’m going to say is “Cynthia McKinney” – there are plenty of others you can look up for yourself.
Ack! More of the same!
“an actualy liberal”:
And I suppose an analysis of the dropping of the Bombs that shows that quite easily the JAPANESE death toll (not to meantion ours) was VASTLY lower due to the dropping of the Bombs means absolutely nothing, eh?
That’s right, just call it “blind destruction”, and you’re instantly wise and sagacious, and the rest of us who live in the real world are obviously idiots.
I’ll send you a postcard from the real world so you don’t forget it exists…
What I’ve come to think is causing the Liberals slide into irrevalance is the increasing awareness that a significant portion are engaging in magical thinking. (I became aware of the concept from Stanton Samenow– Inside the Criminal Mind)
What coronaborealis’ posts (from the LiveJournal article linked by AL) show is that he/she is vision oriented. Sure we should have defeated Japan SOMEHOW but not with nukes. The liberal vision uber alles(non-violence). Her/his ilk have a dream and no amount of reality is going to get in the way. If others question or oppose their vision or it’s means of achievement then they are stupid or morally lacking.
There is no debating with vison holders, only “conciousness raising” or out-and-out rhetorical combat. Their vision is absolute, transcendant beyond the current social construct that others blithely call reality. Honorable people can disagree but to those beholden to the vision, dissent is heresy and is treated accordingly; gulags where there is the power to accomplish it and rhetorical vitriol where there is not.
This post is relevant to all vision holders regardless of political persuasion. I have no more desire to be governed by theocracy than a compassionate dictatorship of the people.
Oh. My. God. This obsessive debate on who’s right: Liberals vs. Conservatives, Democrats vs. Republicans, Far-Left, Far-Right, Lefties, Righties; is quite appallingly trivial. And this unnecessary arguing occurs not only in this blog, but in the “real” world and, in the end, what have we accomplished? Each of us sitting in our computer chairs feeling quite smug about what an intellectual comment we made which obviously proves we are right, the other is wrong…to what end? What is the point of all this bickering? If it is a mere outlet for purely entertainment values, then by all means carry on. But if something, anything, positive is to be achieved or changed, which I am assuming is everyone’s goal here, then by god we should find a middle ground and represent the UNITED part of our country and come together for a common cause. Division only serves to weaken us and any direction our country takes.
Someone kindly pointed out this discussion, and the references to my “blog”.
The young lady commenting on Pearl Harbor is a 19 yr old college student. As someone said above, she has a vision. And like many people, because it’s so clear to her, she believes it should be obvious to all. I, too, had a vision at 19. It was, however, merely the dream of a 20 oz. beer. At least she sees beyond herself.
I fault the current American educational system. Critical thinking is not taught in our schools, criticsm is. Being able to solidly advance an unpopular idea is what’s lacking in many young people. There are arguements against dropping the bomb on Japan, and against attacking Iraq, but most often their proponents fail to back them up with substance.