Kevin Drum whacks another one into the stands, as he talks about the draft:
but I have a better (and more serious) idea: mandatory national service.
This is not a new idea, but it’s the kind of thing that we should be seriously discussing these days. Patriotism, after all, does not come from reciting the pledge of alliegance every day or flying an American flag in front of your home. It comes from a deep seated notion that you live in a great country and that you share some of this greatness with your fellow countrymen.
Mandatory national service would oblige everyone who lives here to give something back to their country. It would allow teenagers to see firsthand what other parts of America are like, and what their fellow Americans are like. It would allow blacks to work alongside whites, rich alongside poor, and natives alongside immigrants. It would provide a large workforce that could be deployed both domestically and internationally. It would provide manpower for our inner cities and ambassadors to the third world. Military service would count, of course, but no one would be forced to serve in the military, and the vast majority of teenagers would serve in non-military areas.
Add a few things to this proposal
those who graduate get means-tested subsidized basic health care a la the VA, and education and homebuying aid a la the GI bill, and youre beginning to be on to something.
Poor kids could spend time in school, catching up. Affluent kids could spend some time doing service. Adventurous kids could go into the military. Disabled kids can contribute too.
All of them would probably benefit from a break between high school and college or work.
Id steal management from the military for it, though. The military has done a superb job of taking in a random assortment of young kids and turning most of them into adults. This should be boot camp, not summer camp.
Glad you didn’t add to Kevin’s offhand suggestion that America’s youth “could be deployed both domestically and internationally”. I am not a fan of the PeaceCorps, which often sends untrained and unprofessional young people to run programmes in politically sensitive areas.
I’ve been reading responses to Rangel around the blogosphere and the point that is made again and again about the professionalism of today’s military is very well taken, in my opinion. I’d add that humanitarian and development work in the poor world also benefits from the professionalism that has been developed over the past thirty years. It is not a game for amateurs, unless they have good teaching supervision.
It’s not a bad idea, although I’d add three points:
* You go where you’re needed. Sure, you’re a fantastic web designer, but if the National Service Corps already has enough web designers, then you dig ditches.
* No exemptions, except possibly a medical one (and here I mean “you get exempted because you’re a quadriplegic”, not “because you have asthma”. “Universal” means “universal”.
* Voluntarily leaving (and “voluntarily” can be anything from saying “I quit!” to bashing in the head of your bunkie) loses you your medical and educational benefits, maybe even your franchise (none of your civil rights, though). Involuntarily leaving (breaking your hip, say) does not lose you your franchise.
Machiavelli had a bit to say on how citizen mililtias inculcated virtù. A lot of modern quasi-libertarians will quote Heinlein to the effect that a nation that needs conscript soldiers to survive is not worthy of surviving. Let them all read Starship Troopers first, and then we’ll talk.
Can someone please explain to me in what significant ways the prettily-named “Mandatory National Service” differs from “Involuntary Servitude?” Because from where I sit, there is no difference whatsoever. Both propose to deprive people of their freedom and force them to do jobs they don’t want to do in places they don’t want to be. But you color one in the language of patriotism and citizenship, and that’s supposed to make it all good? Malarkey.
Of course, they can “voluntarily” leave, but they lose the right to vote and all sorts of other things. IIRC, the only way, in our nation, one can lose the right to vote is by being convicted of a felony. So this proposition entails making it a criminal offense, or the equivalent of a criminal offense, to not perform Mandatory National Service. Again, how is this not involuntary servitude?
Proposing that one’s right to vote is contingent upon performing a duty that one is coerced into doing in the first place is so profoundly anti-humanist and anti-Enlightenment, it’s amazing that anyone would take it seriously. So much for humans having certain inalienable rights, and for government deriving its power from the just consent of the governed, and all that.
Uh, Phil…
…other than in Robert Heinlein juveniles, no one is suggesting that the only way to get a vote is through compulsory service.
We live in a society where we have been granted ‘rights’ to various public goods. We pay for those, involuntarily and under threat of forcible incarceration, through taxes.
Personally, I think the idea of substituting a measure of ‘community service’ for cash isn’t a bad idea.
In times of serious national emergency or war, a compulsory draft has and should have been used. So I’m not so clear on the notion that there’s some moral ‘bright line’ that cannot be crossed, and I’d hold back on soem of the outrage.
A.L.
There was even a peacetime draft, at one time.
But what is the effect on the economy of taking EVERYONE aged 18-20 and turning them into government employees? Especially if, as Akatsukami says, they are to be sent wherever needed? I knew a few 20-year-olds in college who were busy starting their own businesses (often dropping out to do so) and thus doing the nation a fantastic favor – certainly much more than they would have helped us by replacing existing government employees in low-skill, minimal-training jobs.
How long do you think they ought to be forced to serve? And why do poor kids get to spend it in school, while affluent ones have to sit out for two years? I think that there’s a lot to be said for evening the playing field for poor kids – bootstrapping yourself into the middle class isn’t easy – but that’s no real reason to handicap the rich ones in such a way that they’ll just resent the poor kids even more.
Actually, John was proposing exactly that: ” Voluntarily leaving (and “voluntarily” can be anything from saying “I quit!” to bashing in the head of your bunkie) loses you your medical and educational benefits, maybe even your franchise (none of your civil rights, though).”
Apparently the franchise is no longer a civil right — or at least John appears to think it shouldn’t be, but instead should only be granted after the performance of coerced duty to the state. I just can’t get behind an idea like that.
FWIW, I oppose compulsory military drafts in wartime or peacetime as well.
Mandatory is the trigger word in this discussion. Why force national service? What is the ultimate goal of this program? Is it:
1. Inculcating those values we treasure as Americans? That used to be what civics classes taught in public schools.
2. Giving back to the community? There are numerous civil, community and religious organizations existing in America to do just that. Even better, their very existence is a testament to Americans’ desire to give.
3. Breaking down barriers between races and classes? A noble idea. However, our usual government policies to break down barriers are much different than our most integrated institution, the military. One is primarily a meritocracy, the other still fighting over color-blindness and preferences. Unless national service is run like the military, what would the (unintended) results be? And if we want a national service plan run like the military, we have one…the military.
4. Community service for cash? I *like* this one. If community service is truly important to this nation, let’s have market-based incentives to make it work, not government mandates. Enlightened self-interest rules the day.
One tangent — A.L. mentions that the government grants us rights to public goods. I have a philosophical problem with this. From where I stand, the Constitution grants rights to the government based on our consent, not vice versa. The rights are ours to begin with.
Spot on, Phil.
Ammendment 13, Section 1 of the United States Constitution:
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
So we could draft convicts (assuming it was part of their sentence), but otherwise, no.
God Bless America, the land of the free.
I used to work with a well-known national Christian charity. At one time workers from the national service outfit Americorps came to work at one of our locations. It was a stark contrast: The motivated Christian volunteers, making financial sacrifice so they could better perform this needed service, versus the government handout drones, just killing time and waiting for their college money. Keep charity genuine, is what I say.
Philosophically, I find the notion that taxes are OK but a draft is not pretty bizarre. Yes, a draft is a form of slavery, but taxation is a form of extortion (the extraction of money by threat of force). So what? The state does things which are simply necessary and which would be illegal for me to do. Would we also say, a la Heinlein, that a state which needed mandatory taxes to survive didn’t deserve to?
Weird.
But I have to question this idea even so. A.L., you seem to be arguing not that there are things which urgently need doing, and we must draft young people to do them, but rather that we must force young people into essentially unnecessary make-work projects for their own good.
I really have to wonder about that notion. It’s hard to believe that the good that might come from forcing random people to dig ditches together could compensate for the dual drain on the economy of able-bodied workers and tax money to pay them. You seem to have an altogether too starry-eyed view of the virtues of forced labor.
By all means, let us conscript the necessary manpower to support essential public works. But to make conscription in and of itself a goal? Sounds like a recipie for kids hooking up and lighting up on the public’s dime. Not even the draft attempted to induct everyone.
Finally, John’s idea that people should be “sent where they are needed” shows remarkably ahistorical faith in central planning for the allocation of resources. Left alone, people will go where they’re needed–that’s called the free market. Attempts to tamper with it–to have bureaucrats decide they had “enough” web designers and that no more were necessary–have proven less than successful. Why repeat the worst parts of the 20th century?
You know, the more I think about this, the worse it sounds. We’re talking about creating a large labor pool and using it the way the communists used their population–deciding what people should do, and how much of it they should do, etc, without regard to what the willful human beings at the receiving end actually want to do or are capable of doing. This program will be a total disaster economically, by displacing private enterprise and guaranteeing inefficient allocation of resources…why not let professional road contracters build roads instead of resentful kids?
The military isn’t a particularly good model because a) the military doesn’t displace private enterprise for most of what it does and b) the military is a big ol’ black hole, economically speaking.
Yipe. This had better have some amazing upsides, for the price we’d have to pay.
Rob Lyman writes, “Philosophically, I find the notion that taxes are OK but a draft is not pretty bizarre.” I was uncomfortable with it too, which is part of why anarchism came as such a relief.
What I love most about my nation is its habit of respecting my autonomy. I return the favor every day.
I might be more receptive to the notion of `giving something back to the nation’ if it did not mean in fact surrendering my discretion – and that of everyone else – to the politicians.
Do all you good liberals trust Republicans to use you only in socially-beneficial ways?
What a great idea. All that we have to do to make this little dream come true is discard the notions of liberty and pursuit of happiness, repeal the Constitutional prohibition against involuntary servitude, and institute massive tax increases to pay for it (in an economy which will shrink noticably because of this program). Oh, and I suppose we’ll also have to increase the visa programs for young people coming here to do paying work to replace the lost labor of all of the young people we’d be forcing to work for the chance to avoid punishment, and the promise of future rewards which would certainly never be granted.
I am glad to see this topic being discussed. Like any issue, there are pros and cons, risks and benefits. More important is the fact that significant points, concepts and ideas are being aired. There is real substance here. This is a topic that can’t be easily dismissed in a 5-second soundbite. When politicans weigh in on this, they will reveal fairly deep inner views of how our country should work, and how well current things are or aren’t working. This one can cross race, region, party and economic divides. I think it could be either the best thing we’ve ever done, or the worst, depending on how it’s put together. That alone dimimishes any chances of it actually happening. But in debating this, labels of affiliation seem to have less bearing over where one stands on the issue. And that’s a good thing. Which brings me to my next point: how, if compulsory military service was part of a larger program and done right, we could all benefit.
First, compulsory military service would make people more likely to become engaged in debating whether or not we go to war, how we keep peace, etc. We all share the risk of a loved, or at least known, one being put in harm’s way. More public oversight in Gov. policy could save us from a lot of grief. By being more involved, we become more educated.
Second, CMS would give us all something in common-at least the new generations coming up. In today’s society, regional and economic stratification have produced camps of people who’s background and experiences leave them with little or nothing in common. This, along with an unhealthy dose of media manipulation, has given us political impasse. As most of us have experienced, communication breaks down with great regularity. A shared experience goes a long way towards breaking down borders.
There’s a lot more to this, I’ve taken preliminary stab at the issue in a post at my blog, titled ‘wake up and smell the napalm’. A little something for everyone to disagree on…but the main theme is this: we stand united, fall divided. The domestic needs of health, infrastructure, education need attention. This way we can talk about war, keeping the bushies happy, and get in some much-needed licks about the general welfare and well-being of our broader populace.
Lets not forget the enormous cost of managing this “Mandatory National Service” program. A national program this size will require a large bureaucracy that might dwarf even the Homeland Security boondoggle.
The cost-benefit ratio of this program is too low for it to be taken seriously.
In times of war, we should do what’s needed.
However, we have compulsory attendance in public schools (unless you can financially finagle your own way out via private or homeschooling) and now ages 6 thru 18 isn’t enough?
Sure, let’s have national mandated federal service. Having a peacetime draft once, between 1945-1972, wasn’t dumb enough, so let’s do it again. After all, we can never be stupid enough times redundantly again, can we?
Is the whole world in a competition this week to give me the feeling that I’ve wandered into a school for the differently intelligenced? First Bush’s dumbth about how “deficits don’t matter”, then the “let’s have a draft!” idiocy from Rangell … sheesh-almighty.
As an Air Force NCO I bitterly oppose mandatory national military service. It would not address the need to retain second-term troops, and waste resources on a rotating pool of the unwilling who would leave after their first hitch.
I lived the transition from draft-era-leftover Hollow Force to the effective volunteer service we have now. Sending us back will get people killed just to humor fools (of whatever political stripe) who want to damage the military for the sake of social/political engineering.
Why can’t people in this country wake up? Our military is in the worst shape its ever been in. Enlistment numbers are way down. Why else would Bush call up thousands and thousands of reserves and National Guard people?? Are all you people so blind to see that if we actually get into a war that’s more than cruise missles and helicopters we will be in serious trouble. We don’t have the manpower to fight a ground war at all.
If we are forced to reinstate the draft, they will take young adult men who have no training at all. With mandatory military service, even for one year, guys could get military and job training. Almost every military job has a civilian counterpart. And if we do go to war, we will have people in the military to fight and if we need more, we can have people who are already trained in military service.
And what is this bullshit about ‘involuntary servitude’ and slavery?? I have to clean my house even though I don’t want to. Can sue my parents for involuntary servitude and violation of my 13th amendment rights? Of course not. It’s ridiculus to think about it that way. It isn’t a violation of my rights because it is within my parents rights to make me clean. The Constitution, called the highest law in the land, grants Congress to maintain an Army and Navy (and since planes came later an Air Force). So if the only way to maintain an Army, Navy and Air Force is to require that the young adults to serve, that is within the rights and powers of Congress.
And if you think that the people in Congress might do it, and you’re against it, why aren’t you talking to them about it? Why aren’t you writing letters and trying to change things instead of complaining on a message board? Some of the people in this country disgust me because they complain about how our government is running but then they don’t try to fix it or help out.
In my opinion, requiring military service would help our country if in no other ways then in boosting the ability of our Armed Forces and making the people of this country care about whats going on in Washington.
Please email me if you have comments.
I wouldnt call it compulsary milatry service i would call it being ‘forced’to do something you werent born to do. That you dont want to do. Tell me when you were young and your mum said dont do that or do that and you just do the opposite of what she said. And tell me when someone forces you to do something you lidten to them? No you dont its our natural instink to do what they told us not to do.
I believe that Military service should not be compulsary. I belive that Compulsary military service is the institution of modern day slavery. Yes you can call doing your house work slavery but if you want to keep your house cleen you should do it but these people dont have a choice they have to do it its a law. Its not the law to clean your house or do the dishes its more of a chore.
I think that we should have the reserve scheme or the regular army like in Australia and we should promote these forces making them look more welcoming so then we dont actually have to FORCE these kids to do something their just going the rebell against anyway.
Gotta have it!!!!!! that way we won’t rush into war when the likes of the Bush grandchildren and the children and grandchildren of all the other flag waving conservatives are in the service. Bet your sorry ass that the pols in charge will do it as a last resort.
Hey Bill,
I appreciate your sentiments, but history does not bear you out. Having a draft did nothing to discourage our president and the congress from getting us into that 14-year quagmire called Vietnam.
I’d also recommend you read the Constitution sometime. The 13th Amendment explicitly prohibits conditions of “involuntary servitude” and the 14th Amendment goes onto to say that no citizen may be deprived of “life, liberty or property without due process.”
Military conscription fails on both counts.