and to thank the veterans alive and dead for protecting me and mine.
And worried that what I wrote kept coming out sounding either too qualified or would be interpreted as being too nationalistic.
And I realized something about my own thinking, a basic principle Ill set out as a guiding point for the Democrats and the Left in general as they try and figure out the next act in this drama we are in.
First, you have to love America.
This isnt a perfect country. I think its the best county; Ive debated this with commenters before, and Ill point out that while people worldwide tend to vote with their feet, there may be other (economic) attractions that pull them. But there are virtues here which far outweigh any sins. And Ill start with the virtue of hope.
The hope of the immigrants, abandoning their farms and security for a new place here.
The hope of the settlers, walking across Death Valley, burying their dead as they went.
The hope of the folks who moved to California after the war.
The hope of the two Latino kids doing their Computer Science homework at Starbucks.
I love this country, my country, my people. And those who attack her
from guerilla cells, boardrooms, or their comfy chairs in expensive restaurants
better watch out.
I dont get a clear sense that my fellow liberals feel the same way. And if so, why should the folks follow them? Why are we worthy of the support of a nation that we dont support?
So let me suggest an axiom for the New Model Democrats:
America is a great goddamn country, and were both going to defend it from those who attack it and fight to make it better.
And for everyone who is going to comment and remind me that all liberals already do that
no they dont. Not when the chancellor has to intervene at U.C. Berkeley to get permission for American flags to be flown and red-white-and-blue ribbons to be worn. Not when the strongest voices in liberalism give lip service to responding to an attack on our citizens on our soil.
Loving this country isnt the same thing as jingoism; it isnt the same thing as imperialism; it isnt the same thing as blind support of the worst traits of our government or our people.
It starts with recognizing the best traits, and there are a hell of a lot of them.
They were worth defending in my father’s time, and they are worth defending today.
So thanks, veterans. Thanks soldiers and sailors and marines and airmen. Thanks for doing your jobs and I hope you all come home hale and whole, every one of you.
(11/12: edited for clarity and grammar)
[applause] Can’t find a thing I disagree with in the post.
Thank you, Sir!
This is why I read this blog. I came to it via a link to “Why be an Armed Liberal” and have visited regularly ever since.
A long time ago (in internet time,) prior to my exposure to the concept of “fisking,” I fisked a particularly brainless article on the lost, lamented Themestream.com. The article explained just what liberalism was and why it was, by definition, the right (as in “correct”) way to think. My response (in which I was not kind to the author) pointed out the fact that both liberals and conservatives are necessary to the healthy operation of our society, and I truly believe that.
So long as the liberals are represented by people such as yourself – with the ability to reason, and the belief that the system will work so long as we do our parts – I have hope for the future. But if the idiotarians on the left and right continue to divide the nation…
Thank you. Thank you for representing your side well. (I’ve been wanting to say that for a while.)
Your loyal sometime opposition,
Yeahfreakinghoo! I’m a Democrat *because* I love my country, not in spite of it. (If we stand up for the Bill of Rights and get smeared for being Un-American because of it, well, shame on us for letting that happen.) Good job.
And have a good Veterans Day.
Well, I’m a Republican, but there is nothing in that post that I can find fault with. If there were more Democrats thinking and talking that way, we’d be sweating. This is something that ALL intelligent folks, Democrat and Republican, liberal and conservative, ought to be able to agree on. OTOH, you have your Katha Pollitts and Noam Chomskys, we have our Pat Buchanan (yechh!).
BJ, Standing up for the Bill of Rights is great, if you stand up for all of the rights and don’t forget about inconvenient ones (like the 2nd Ammendment).
Totally agree with the original post and I think it goes a long way in explaining Nov 5.
Ah, a good old school liberal – like I used to remember here in D.C. You know, the type you can work with on The Hill. The type you can compromise on legislation with without compromising one’s values. I’m a dyed in the wool ‘Repug’ … but I wouldn’t mind having someone with your sentiments on the other side of the aisle. Not one bit.
AMEN!
We need both liberals and conservatives in this country. True Liberals keep us looking forward and try to ensure that the ideals of this country are available to everyone. Conservatives ensure that the ideals and values on which this country was founded remain intact and are not altered by change.
We do not need people who do not believe in the ideals of this country running this country!
Keep up the good work!
Phil, a conservative liberal or a liberal conservative.
Good for you.
The problem you face is that the majority of the leaders, or at least the public advocates, of “your” party firmly disagree with you. When you get tired of them, come join us.
Yes, the “right” has Pat Buchanan. But, note, he’s no longer a Republican, and the Republican Party doesn’t care what he thinks. One of the strongest characteristics of the Republican party is that we dump our crooks and kooks.
The “Left” has Katha Polit, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and Nancy Pelosi. And loves them, respects them, and keeps them.
Your choice.
I’m a big-time Republican, but I’m always a little nervous that the Dems will wake up one day -AND DO EXACTLY AS YOU SAY-
You are right on the money, Sir, and I’d love to tangle horns with more liberals who feel the same way as you do.
“‘My country, right or wrong,’ is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, ‘My mother, drunk or sober.'”
– GK Chesterton
I also love America, enough to have spent most of my adult life in or supporting the military. That isn’t to say that I’m blind to our faults. For example, a good friend of mine was interned in camps during WWII because his parents were Japanese immigrants. My friend, a native-born US citizen, was all of 2 years old when interned. Any country that puts people, especially children, into concentration camps has problems. May we never let that happen again. The first step to fixing any problem is to recognize it exists. Our country won’t get better if we’re blind to the faults.
Perhaps the difference between most conservatives and many liberals is the starting point in the process. Most conservatives look at America and see the good things about our country. Unfortunately, some – the “my country right or wrong” crowd – look no further. Most liberals I’ve encountered over the years look at America and see mostly the faults. It takes a healthy balance to make for a better country, as your post describes. For that, I thank you.
The problem is that liberals already love their country, but they love it the way a sculpter loves a block of granite: as something to be chiseled into (left-wing) perfection.
America isn’t a blank slate, it’s something already alive and no matter how well-intentioned the sculpter, those chisel blows hurt and make it bleed. And, yes, a LOT of conservatives are the same way.
You are a man of honor and I respect that in anyone… the only way to resolve tough issues is through honorable conflict and too many, on both sides of the political divide, have lost all concept of honor…
Honor – Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity
Character does matter, integrity matters, trust matters…
If all we can agree on is that we love our country then we have a point in common, a clean, flat spot to start building trust…
sadly, the public face of the Democratic party appears to be turning farther away from that point of common interest…
Thank you for the fresh thoughts and the reminder that we are still brothers…
Loved your post. My disenchantment with the Democaratic Party started when I grew tired of the constantly hearing that every problem in the world was somehow the fault of “AmeriKKKa”. It grew immensely with the advent of Political Correctness — the doctrine that there is one correct opinion on any issue, and that disagreement on any one issue renders any opinion I may have on any other invalid.
But perhaps my my disgust with the Democrats is caused by their assumption that they somehow have a monopoly on human compassion, and that any disageement with any methodology proposed by the party implies that I am a cold-hearted bastard.
Well said good sir!
Nothing for a Libertarian like me to disagree with either. All the parties have their contingents of fools. How the parties deal with their own fools seems to predict how they will do in the future.
I hope that this kind of old fashoned sense makes a comeback.
Jim Gwyn
The thing is, I think America is the best country in the world, I love my country fiercely, my favorite things are in America, I love the Constitution. I have been all over America and I never run out of things to say about how beautiful and fine all of it is. And I hate seeing it get messed up. As far as I can tell, that’s the way every Democrat I know feels, too.
Republicans spent a lot of time attacking California and New York last year, and I don’t spend a lot of time attacking, say, Kansas or Tennessee. (I had a wonderful time in Tennessee.) So I’m not sure it’s Democrats who ought to be hung with the “hate America” label.
(And, last time I looked, crackpots like Ann Coulter are still Republicans, btw.)
TO:
RE: Guiding Points
“…a basic principle Ill set out as a guiding point for the Democrats and the Left in general as they try and figure out the next act in this drama we are in.” —
Good luck!
You’re going to need it.
As far as I’ve been able to see over the last week, there is no indication that the Democrats are ‘learning’ from this experience. Instead, they appear to be falling back on their norm of denial and name-calling. Neither of which is constructive or useful for the republic.
All indicators, from Garrison Keillor to Hillary Clinton, appear to reinforce the impression that the only the Democrats are interested in is POWER.
The Republic. The Constitution. The Law. They all mean nothing to them. It’s all about WHO wins the ‘game’.
We witnessed their own baiting of homosexuals in Montana, South Carolina and Hawaii. They’ll rend their own flesh in order to “win”.
They’ll dance on the graves of their fallen to “win”; vis-a-vis Wellstone.
Some people have suggested that Republicans killed him. I think the Democrats had more to gain from his death and their tap-dancing over his still warm body would point to that.
Well…
…it all turned against them.
And even so, they don’t seem to understand….to ‘grasp’ the concept that “character matters”.
As the old tuna commercials went…
“Sorry, Charlie.”
“America wants people with ‘character’. Not a bunch of ‘characters’.”
Now Bill Moyers, for NOW on PBS, suggests that the Republicans are the ‘evil’ “Party of God”.
So…
…does that make Democrats the ‘good’ “Party of Satan”?
I suggest that Congress needs to disenfranchise PBS. There is obviously a Religious War going on there and our Constitution precludes the government from sponsering “religion”.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Write your Congressional delegates today!
As a conservative who was enraged by an anti-American demonstration at Boston Common over the weekend, it’s nice to know there are liberals who one can disagree with and still respect.
The Boston Common commotion was supposedly against the war in Iraq – ok, I disagree, but I know there are principled arguments against such a war. Principle was notably absent on the Commons, however. While there I witnessed the possibility of war used as a pretext for odious, virulent anti-Americanism. Thanks for renewing my faith that patriotic, thoughtful liberals still exist.
well i sure as FUCK can!!
…er, i might have made some different punctuation choices. other than that…
🙂
Chesterton is wrong. If my mother were drunk, I wouldn’t turn my back on her; I would help get her home and put her to bed to sleep it off. And have a long talk with her the next day about her drinking problem.
Carl Schurz had it right: “Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.” And this is what so many leftists fail to understand. If you think this country is in the wrong, the proper response is not to attack it at every turn. For a patriot, the proper response is to correct the problem. But in order to do that, you have to love your country, not hate it. Most leftists fail that test.
You seem to be equating dissent with being unpatriotic.
Big mistake.
Bob, I respectfully disagree. “Patriotic dissent” is not a contradiction in terms; that’s what Senator Schurz meant when he said “when wrong, to be put right.” But that would be constructive dissent — dissent that points out where our country has gone astray and suggests ways that it could be made better.
On the other hand, dissent that simply spews hatred and contempt for your country is neither constructive nor patriotic.
We have been hearing many pundits and commentators on the right ask, “What has happened to the Harry Truman/JFK/LBJ democrats?” I think that we have found at least one of them. Like banked coals in a fireplace, they are smoldering unseen, waiting to emerge and ignite when time and circumstances are right. Maybe the time has come for the DNC to shake off the ashes of a failed philosophy and throw its fuel on this fire. I hope that this is the beginning of that change. Our country needs intelligent debate from equally loyal opponents in the public arena, not the self-serving prattle of narcissistic ideologues. The Armed Liberal represents what the left in this country once was, and should never have abandoned. I am another republican who would welcome this voice in the national debate.
A very good post. When I was young I described myself as a Democrat. I became a Republican because the Democrats seemed to have a large faction that considered the nation irredeemably evil.
That is something I could not concur in or compromise myself to.
Congratulations on a terrific post. You make some excellent points in favor of a patriotic liberalism. However, as a libertarian/conservative who regularly votes Republican, I’ve got to say that, unfortunately (and I am sincere in regretting the situation) I have little concern about your views posing a significant ideological threat. Not so much because wouldn’t hold appeal to a great many people as an intelligent alternative to my own views, but rather because your ideological allies would shout you down before they could come to the public’s attention. I mean, how long do you think that someone could make a case similar to yours on the Democratic Underground, or even Salon Tabletalk for that matter, before they started getting labled a chickenhawk or a poser or any number of items discounting your liberal credentials. I hope you take no offense to these comments. I really don’t intend any. Just a regretable observation.
An excelllent post! As a Strict Constitutionalist, I find myself neither on the Left nor on the Right. On some issues, I tend toward conservative views, on others towards liberal views, but always from the point of the Constitution as the governing rule of the nation. Your post may be one of the very few posts redeeming the liberal position in todays world. I congradulate you on your post.
“http://raymo.blogspot.com/2002_11_01_raymo_archive.html
Ugh. Many apologies — I tried to trackback a post I made in reference to this post, messed it up, and ended up doing the trackback thing several times. I’m posting this as a comment since you don’t have contact information up. Sorry again.
I came here via RAWbservations. I came, I saw, I bookmarked.
For Avedon: Please read my rant at And they say Republicans are mean-spirited and tell me again that Ann Coulter is a crackpot. And please read the full article linked “The Party of Porn.”
I’ll be back to visit this site. It’s always enlightening to hear from the rational opposition.
On High Horses
Trent and Joe have pulled up the story of teachers abusing the children of military families by accusing their serving parents of being war criminals. Abuse is abuse, and I’ll let others talk about specifics
Goody!
One of the more commented-upon posts I did over at Armed Liberal was this one on patriotism and the Democratic Party. It is an issue I feel strongly about, and one that is behind my
Mogadishu Democrats
This post is about the centrist Democrats who see the importance of the natinal defence issue, but can’t seem to shake some crippling beliefs and behaviours. Let’s call them “Mogadishu Democrats.”
ONLY NUMBERS?
Two hundred, twenty-eight years
That, we have been going to war
Eleven times we said, “For freedom!”
Was, what we were fighting for.
We’ve spent two, point, six trillion
But that was just a petty cost
Compared to all of the spent lives
Of those loved ones, who were lost.
Thirty-two hundred plus, a month
For more than thirty-two years
The total time fighting our enemies
And more time, shedding our tears.
One and one quarter million dead
That’s more than fifteen every day
Since we went to war, “For freedom!”
In our Revolutionary way.
One and one half million wounded
For this Country of the Free
Although some of these losses
Were the Union’s and Confederacy.
But, all of them are Veterans
Who fought for what they believed
In their own way, doing battle
For those Freedoms, they perceived.
As of late, a Veteran’s definition
Has come from a different kind of War
For which we all, are conscripted
To help guard, our Freedom’s door.
Let’s Honor, each and every one
And though we may not know each name
They were so much more than numbers
In every Wartime’s deadly “game”.
And, this November eleventh
In the year, Two Thousand Three
Let’s hope someday, all People
Live in a land, where they are Free.
Let’s make Veterans Day a memory
And a part of days gone past
Learn to live with our Fellowman
In a Free World at Peace, at last.
10-24-2003
NOVEMBER 11TH
There are so many little towns
That make up this great nation
And the heroes from them
Boggle the imagination.
Those who answer the call
In peace and wartimes strife
Who give of themselves
So, we can live this life.
Some go and fight those wars
Some die, some hurt, survive
But all that they believe in
Is what keeps freedom alive.
It is all those little towns
And people who live there
Who stand and fight for freedom
For people, everywhere.
Somebody’s dad or brother
Husband, daughter or son
Mother, sister, cousins
We all, know someone
Who, when freedom was threatened
Here at home, around the world
Were determined to insure
Freedoms flag remained unfurled.
They believe and fight for
The things this world needs
They might not always win
But they will have planted seeds.
In time of peace or conflict
There is always a price to pay
And today, we pay them tribute
On this Veterans Day.
11-6-2000
VETERANS ALL (after 9/11)
Well! We’re in a different world
Than, what, we ever knew
It will never, be the same
As it was, for me and you.
I think that, since 9/11
Some words forever changed
Like the meaning of “Veteran”
Has been, re-arranged.
Now, we all are fighters
For our “freedoms’ cause”
If we don’t stand, be counted
We’ll have lost, “the cause, that was!”
On this Veterans’ Day
In this “land of the free”
We honor those, who gave all
Those with us, and those, yet to be.
We honor those who perished
In attacks upon our shore
And those hunting evildoers
Who came through our “open door”.
We honor all Americans
And freedom lovers of the world
Where flags like, “The Stars And Stripes”
Fly in the breeze, unfurled.
I think from this day forth
All patriotic celebrations
Will always give us pause
To these new, realizations.
We must rid this Earth
Of those “Devils” and their goals
With terror on their minds
Within their hateful souls.
So, here’s to all the Veterans
Who have made “Freedom Ring”
And, those around the world
Who know! We have a “special” thing.
Veteran’s Day 2001
VETERANS DAY 2002
Well, here we are, once again
With Veterans, in heart and mind
Still trying to heal, from 9/11
Facing Saddam, and his kind.
With a new War, looming
And the one that we now fight
Our Soldiers and our Nation
Willing , to do what’s right.
It’s not something, we want
But, something, that we must
As long as we, all believe
Our cause, is true and just.
Seasoned troops and new recruits
And Patriots in our Homeland
All hoping for peace and goodwill
And Freedom, in every foreign land.
Maybe some way, sometime, this day
Will be one, of true celebration
With Veterans a part of the past
And no more War, for any Nation.
11-10-02
Del “Abe” Jones
White Bluff, TN
Please visit my 9/11 Memorial page
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/delabejones/page1.html (9/11 Memoriam)
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/delabejones/instant/memorial.html (more poetry)
I also have my first e-book, “THE WORLD, WAR, FREEDOM, AND MORE”,
(re: Vietnam, Gulf War, and all Vets, Native American, Trail of Tears and
Chief Joseph, ) available for FREE in .zip or .exe format. Just ask for it.
I Once Wrote Something About Veteran’s Day…
…over at Armed Liberal. Here’s what I wrote in ‘I Started To Write About Veteran’s Day…’: …and to thank the veterans alive and dead for protecting me and mine.And worried that what I wrote kept…
Veterans Day
Not to miss: Donald Sensing’s Veterans Day post. It brought tears to my eyes. Science fiction writer Robert A. Heinlein wrote the best definition of veterans that I have ever read. He was a medically-retired US Navy officer himself when…