Update: Charles links over and a hockey match ensues in the comments below. More debate here, as Joe joins the scrimmage.
Folks, if you go to the comments, you’ll see that I’ve edited out a series of comments centering on the notion that LGF should be shut down or sanctioned because it promotes ‘hate speech’.
Sorry, not on this pitch; that’s not a topic of discussion I’m interested in having on one of my posts. Regardless of my bias toward (or against) any blogger, I’m not in the business of shutting people down.
If any of you post on this again, I may elect to ban you.
For all the visitors from LGF, I’m glad you’re here and hope you stick around. Our place is somewhat different from Charles’; think biker bar and college bull session. Each of us (there are a bunch of authors here) control the comments on our threads, and I tend to be fairly ruthless in criticizing and at some point banning people who don’t want to make arguments, but want to have them instead. Hope you browse around and we’re interested in what you have to say.]
I’ve been corresponding with ex-blogger (come baaack!!) and uber-commuter Ann Salisbury about the whole Kos issue, and snce she suggested it, I think I’ll just post our last emails:
…I didn’t get the impression that Nathan was cheering by posting the pic, but setting it out there for what it was — which, in my mind, is tragedy, plain and simple.
I can’t see any violence being “better” than another, but I can see “justified” or “more justified” violence. Self-defense and defense of others is usually “more justified,” but even the law in the United States requires that the perceived threat giving rise to the self-defense be a reasonable perception. (For example, “He looked at me funny,” just doesn’t do it.)
Glad to see you’re working through the hard stuff – and I appreciate you sharing it, because it’s helping me to work through it too.
-Ann
This was in reply to my message:
I’m breaking the issue into two basic areas:
Is our violence better than their violence? And if so, why?
What is the place of hate in conflict?
I’ve met Charles, and he’s a liberal who was shocked by 9/11 into reading Arab media, and shocked by what he saw there. I really do think he’s provided a service in opening that up to wider discussion, and I think he’s damaged the service that he does by allowing his comments to be as bile-filled as they are.
I think that the good thing about our side is that we’re willing to accept the humanity of everyone – including our enemies, which is why we grieve, not cheer, at the picture on Nathan’s site. When we stop doing that – as Kos did, and as many of Charles’ commenters do, we erode our own standing.
A.L.
“Bile-filled?”
Try fascistic.
Charles approves and cultivates the tone of his comments. Try posting a “P.C.” comment on a *thread* with blatantly racist comments:
However, that’s what Quebec gets and deserves for importing scum from North Africa just to bolster the French-speaking numbers. These people are useless and evil.
See how long it takes your PC comment to get deleted vs. the a bile-filled comment.
Charles is the bile.
He’s a hate-monger with thin skin. There’s a difference between providing a valuable service and fostering hate. The scary thing is that his is one of the most-trafficked blogs on the web.
When you ban fellow-traveler Tacitus–who largely agrees with Charles–for criticizing your integrity, you’ve got serious issues.
To add to SAO’s line of thought, I am going to repeat my last comment from the predecessor thread, since I don’t think this point is getting enough attention:
“You are missing a third point here however – an important one – that I will try to phrase in the most neutral way possible: Charles Johnson actively takes part in LGF’s comments section. He often joins in the mocking of dissident posters who are labelled “pc trolls” or idiotarians. This is often done in the case of dissenting posters who object to what they perceive as racist or highly offensive views expressed in the comments or on the blog itself. Johnson also bans quite a number of dissident posters, some of whom are true nuisance trolls, others of whom appear to simply have a strong disagreement. I have not seen Johnson ban the racists, even highly offensive ones or even object to their tone. (Although, neither have I seen him reiterate it.) This is all the more one-sided inasmuch as Johnson does not tolerate any anti-Jewish hatespeech, yet has no problem with the anti-Islamic kind. This double standard alone greatly encourages the latter.
Charles Johnson thereby exercises a fair degree of control over the identity of the posters themselves and therefore the content itself.”
…corresponding with ex-blogger…
Is there a 12-step program for this?
I think that the good thing about our side is that we’re willing to accept the humanity of everyone – including our enemies, which is why we grieve, not cheer, at the picture on Nathan’s site. When we stop doing that – as Kos did, and as many of Charles’ commenters do, we erode our own standing.
I absolutely believe this. We really need to cultivate our better selves–although we may rejoice at our victories, we must never rejoice at our enemies’ defeats. And mourn every human’s death.
This is what I fear the most about a protracted conflict–the “generational” or even perpetual conflict that some talk about–that we will become so hardened that we will have lost some of what’s worth fighting for in our culture.
And railing–which is what I’ve seen in many of the LGF commenters, in Kos’s recent comments, and in some of his critics’ comments–is itself an evil deed.
Who is Nathan in this context, and what pictures did he post?
I have another problem with LGF’s approach of demonizing Islam and Muslims. It is sort of the reverse of the issue I have with the way the European press and political establishment are increasingly defining the Islam vs. the West issue.
I often here on French radio and read in the press here (in Paris where I live) criticism from mainstream French intellectuals/politicians of Bush’s war on terror as a bomb-them-all-to-bits war against Muslims, as though the Bush administration had defined the us-against-them conflict as Muslims versus the West (or the U.S.). This of course is a gross misunderstanding of the Bush administration position, which should be obvious to anyone who has noted the administration’s significant attempts to reach out to the Muslim community, to define the enemy as terrorists and their supporters, to encourage Arab and Muslim moderates, and to favor democratization and human rights.
The ‘mental trick’ I see going on in the French caricature of U.S. policy is that the French themselves often fall into their own “we versus them” error, in which the ‘them’ ‘identified’ as the psychologically ‘legitimate’ representatives of the Muslim world are people like Yassin, Arafat, suicide bombers, Al Quaeda extremists, the Iraqi “resistance”, and even as of today Al Sadr, in other words, the Islamic world is reduced to its worst elements. What happened to the moderates? the progressives? the democrats? the dissidents? the Kanan Makiyas, the Massouds – or people like Zeyad – in Iraq, but also in the Muslim world as a whole? They have been ‘intellectually’ defined out of the debate. (Of course, one could say that the ‘them’ is defined as whoever is opposed to the U.S. or Israel at a given moment.)
This sort of reductionism is just as racist in its way as anything that LGF does. But the highly polarized view, in either case, is neither descriptive of the entirety of the Muslim world, nor particularly helpful. Indeed, it’s politically quite unhelpful.
In fairness to Charles Johnson, I do recognize that he draws needed attention to Islamic moderates as well, even if I find the tone of the site as a whole distasteful.
Nathan is a left-leaning blogger who is trying to debate LGF on their own terms… and losing.
Thus he is the “fifth-column/traitior to America/on the other side,” etc.
Notice the eliminationist rhetoric- the *exact opposite* of the tone here.
I’m heartened to see comments about the horror that is the LGF site. It truly ruined my day when I visited there, and I was shocked that a quality blogger such as Roger L. Simon (that I have been visiting recently) links there so often. It’s disgusting! I cannot imagine what sensibility allows such abject expressions of hate and bigotry to remain there for all to see.
I am an LGFer who agrees that the tone of much of the rhetoric on LGF is wrong. There are several posters who I have asked repeatedly to be banned, bigel and Camel Prophet for example. The problem with LGF is that it is so popular you inevitably end up with fringers, people who populat FreeRepublic, etc. I sincerely wish he would clean up some of the more blatant posts there, especially along the lines of “raze Falujah”, most of which were not academic, but rather vengeful in nature. However, I would like to point out that most of the regulars, save a few of the above mentioned, are not nearly so vile. Indeed, the worst ones seem to come and go, contributing little but bile.
Calling the site fascistic is just as bad as the worst that you accuse LGF of being. It shows your attitudes and biases to no better than those you decry.
And as for being a hate monger, I think that is laughable. Rather, I would say that he has been overtaken by pessism, and sees little hope in the Arab World. The difference is huge, but not easily seen.
Not easily seen, but easily used as an excuse to further hate and its crimes.
And what is that supposed to mean Kori? That he tells his readers to go out and kill Muslims? Give me a break. Personally, I think that he feels that there is no hope for the Arab/Muslim world, and that it is only a matter of time before the Belmont Club 3 Conjectures scenario takes place.
http://www.belmontclub.blogspot.com/2003_09_01_belmontclub_archive.html#106401071003484059
“Raze Falujah” was a post, not a comment.
Charles himself probably doesn’t advocate the massacre of the 200,000 people who live there, but he certainly intends to court and amplify those who would.
I believe he’s responsible for the comments made regularly on his site. Just because he only toys with or halfway endorses disgusting things doesn’t make him any less responsible.
The comments I have collected are all very fascistic: eliminationist, racist, and cruel. There’s really no reason why I should have to go digging through the filth (that you seem to enjoy every day), but here’s more:
Comments made about the rape and murder of a 16 year old Palestinian girl:
Raped and killed at the age of 16? The Prophet would not approve. You’re supposed to rape and MARRY them, and at a much younger age.
Rape, if not by the father, is against Islam. Doncha know?
The Palestinians aren’t really concerned with the rape and murder, after all it was just a girl. The reason they’re screaming for blood is because before the men murdered her and while she was raped they made her take her hajib off.
Nice company you’ve got FH (and A.L. by proxy).
I thought I was pretty clear what I meant. What he thinks and what his readers think (as evidenced by their comments) can differ quite a bit. We are responsible to some extent for our speech. If reasonable readers such as those here can sense the hate emanating from LGF even at a reasonable digital distance in the blogosphere (!), then there’s a problem. If LGF were writing all he were writing about Jews — think. of. the. holocaust. — and letting those comments stand (again substituting Jews for Muslims) would you still hold the same “it’s not a problem” opinion?
You know, violence is a culmination of the violence of internal feelings, and what we read most definitely can contribute to roiling emotions — negative emotions — directed at other individuals, or even an entire people. It makes a HUGE qualitative difference that Winds of Change has their Sufi Islam posts. The feeling you have towards Muslims (I surmise) after reading those posts are quite different from those you leave with having visited LGF. When people start putting feelings of hate into practice, that’s a problem, but it needs to be nipped in the bud, when those feelings begin to emerge. That means calling sites like LGF or people like Sadr on it when they’re either carelessly or purposefully promoting hate.
SAO brings up some good examples. I imagine most of those commenters on LGF aren’t of the background of people such as Juan Cole and though I’m not Muslim, I sense that they aren’t really up to date on what it means to be Muslim at all yet feel absolutely okay, even obliged, to speak derogatively of it. What of the misinformation on that site? We’re not ignorant anymore of what happens when people spread misinformed lies about Jews — some people end up believing it, not knowing any better. So we’re vigilant. LGF is not, to say the least.
SAO, You are “probably” right quite often (to use a word that hearkens back to an earlier point of yours on the recent thread). I’d be on your side of the bet, regarding the “importing scum from North Africa” quote you cited.
Still, I’d like to suggest to those holding the position that LGF should be simply dismissed as racist that sometimes it may be true that a group of people has horrendously wicked traits. Since you haven’t proven that none of the critiques of Arab culture seen on LGF is plausible, it seems that your position simply stipulates that it will always be wrong to say of a group that it has horrendously wicked traits, even if it does have those traits. Such epistemic hand-tying is quite unwise. It makes important truths taboo in the forum. It’s an impedement to knowledge. And it does so on the false premise that denunciation of a group is always racist.
Even if SAO is right that such denunciation is more often than not racist, it isn’t always racist.
You’re quite right, Jim. My main point is in regard to the comments section, which I believe is regularly vulgar, cruel, and racist- and which I believe Charles feeds. I do not believe the posts themselves are ipso facto racist. Nor would I want to “tie hands” in the face of the more savage cruelty which Charles reports on.
The post I’m working on is exactly about the place of cruelty.
I think that it has a place; I don’t anticipate living in a world free of it (nature is cruel in it’s indifference to us, for example) but I think that part of we have to do is find it’s place and keep it locked there.
SAO – I don’t think ignoring those who want to ‘raze Falluja’ is the answer; I think we ingored those who wanted to ‘raze New York’ for too long. I think we need to engage them and deal with the (real) issues that are at the root of the anger – on both sides.
A.L.
Sure let’s not ignore them. Let’s not ignore the fascists on the other side either.
Are you saying we should “engage” LGF? Or are you saying Charles is “engaging” the people who would raze Falluja?
Charles isn’t trying to educate, he is reinforcing hatred. *This* is what education and looks like.
Please.
“Raze Fallujah” are not my words. It’s the title of an article by Tammy Bruce, that I linked to in order to kick off a discussion. If you had bothered to read past your own prejudices, you would have discovered that I explicitly said, in a comment to that post, that I was NOT ENDORSING that view.
Now carry on with your LGF bashing.
Gabriel Gonzalez wrote:
Johnson also bans quite a number of dissident posters, some of whom are true nuisance trolls, others of whom appear to simply have a strong disagreement. I have not seen Johnson ban the racists, even highly offensive ones or even object to their tone.
Excuse me, but how the hell do you know who I ban and who I delete, and who I don’t? Have you been seen my ban file?
This is one of the most disingenuous accusations that people make against me.
I don’t keep track of each and every banned poster or deleted post, so I can’t assure you that the number on each side is exactly the same, but your accusation is totally false. I have banned a number of people for expressing hateful opinions — ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.
So which is it — am I banning and deleting too few people, or too many people?
By the way, we have over 3,000 posted comments already today. Would you, Gabriel Gonzalez, like to take over the task of policing that?
Charles, I’m glad you’re here and willing to participate in the discussion. Thanks…
A.L.
While I certainly wouldn’t have made the “comments made about the rape and murder of a 16 year old Palestinian girl” that Charles did, I can understand why a Westerner would make them–all you have to do is remember the fire at that girl’s school in Saudi where the muttawa were trying to prevent the girls from escaping the fire because they weren’t veiled. Stuff like that certainly makes me feel like I don’t need to extend the benefit of the doubt to such a society.
Now carry on with your LGF bashing.
Charles,
I am not sure that we are engaging *solely* in LGF bashing. I’d call it constructive criticism. Much of that criticism is measured, and it is not entirely without basis. And I am not referring to those who condemn LGF outright – I don’t agree with that reaction, but frankly can sympathize with it. Now that you’ve come into the comments here (hopefully with the intention of returning), my two cents on top of my previous remarks.
A.L. is right that LGF pioneered an approach to criticism of events in the Muslim world where others had not yet dared to tread. Much of that was gutsy and admirable, and the right thing to do. But the tone, the feeding of the frenzied mob backstage, the double standard for anti-Muslim hatred versus anti-semitism, etc. is just too much. I think that’s too bad, because I think LGF should get wider respect among balanced people, even if you are always going to get some criticism and charges of bigotry. It would nice if those charges were entirely without basis and I can’t honestly say that that is the case today.
I’m not going to tell you how to run your blog, and I certainly wouldn’t want to “manage” the crazies out back. But I think you could stop encouraging them, even on occasion maybe even discourage them. It would put your main message in a better light.
I have spoken to many bloggers, reasonable people of all stripes who seem to think you have a problem. Since this has no doubt been pointed out to you in the past, I’ll just repeat it and leave it at that.
Gabriel Gonzalez
Banned from LGF
cp: I did not make those quoted comments.
Those are cherry-picked out of several hundred comments in a very long thread. FACT: I could easily pick out hundreds of comments from any particular thread at LGF to illustrate compassion, humanity, humor, kindness, and camaraderie. There are vastly more of these than the nasty ones; but somehow people like “Senior Administration Official” only see the negative ones. Why is that?
By the way, people; each and every comments page at LGF carries this disclaimer:
Comments are open and unmoderated, although obscene or abusive remarks may be deleted. Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
Is this not clear enough?
Gabriel Gonzalez: you were banned after posting this remark, accusing LGF of being a center for hate speech, Nazis, and white supremacists:
Unfortunately, as your site serves as a vehicle for hate speech (albeit with a preponderance of unobjectionable commentary) and is apparently infested with a number of white supremacists and other sundry bigots, it’s a bit pretentious of you to be referring to IndyMedia as “NaziMedia”. Pot calling the Kettle black.
Sorry, but I have absolutely no obligation to allow those kinds of insults to be posted on a site I’m paying for, especially when the vast majority of our readers are neither white nor bigoted nor Nazis nor engaging in “hate speech.” This is the kind of blanket smear (with a half-hearted disclaimer added) that will get people banned.
And now I understand why you’re posting LGF-bashing comments all over the blogosphere. Thanks for reminding me.
Excuse me, but how the hell do you know who I ban and who I delete, and who I don’t? Have you been seen my ban file?
No I haven’t. That is why I said “I have not seen”, because I can’t know for sure (I spend a little less time over at LGF than you do.)
I am giving you my impression from my relatively infrequent trips to your comments section – I had hardly thought more than a few were necessary to get the general ‘feel’ – and that conveyed to me by others (who I consider reliable). I have noted you ban people as “pc trolls”, or whatever, I have also seen you, rightly, condemn over-the-top anti-semitic statements, in the very same threads (or at least on the same days) where equally offensive (ie, unnecessarily and over-generalizingly offensive) anti-Muslim have been made. Indeed, I for one have never seen anyone banned for rabid anti-Muslim hatespeech on LGF. But I am glad to see that you are sensitive to the issue.
And now I understand why you’re posting LGF-bashing comments all over the blogosphere. Thanks for reminding me.
Charles,
Some have called you thin-skinned. Boy, that’s an understatement.
You are absolutely right that it is *your* site and you don’t have to tolerate anyone for any reason. But the example of my “offensive” statement is a pathetically poor one in the light of the dozens of highly offensive comments on LGF that are put up all the time. If you are going to ban me for that level of criticism, while tolerating the far more rabid hate speech that I was criticizing on your site, you’ve got a real problem. I hope it’s only skin deep.
Gabriel: It’s pretty clear that you’re carrying a grudge. Even after I explained that 1) there are more than 3000 comments a day, and there’s no way to police each and every one, and 2) that I do ban people on both sides of the aisle, you’re still insisting that you know the real truth of the matter, that I “tolerate rabid hate speech.”
You still never answered: am I banning and deleting too few people, or too many? You seem to want to have it both ways.
Gabriel,
I don’t visit LGF (although I’ve clicked through to the site on a few linked stories from other blogs), and I have no desire to defend Charles’s opinions or posts, or any of his commenters. And I’ve read several of your comments on this blog before and have been generally impressed by them.
But — and no offense is intended here — I can’t think of any message board I visit that would not ban a guest who publically insulted the proprietor by claiming he ran a site that was a vehicle for hate speech and follwed up by insulting the entirety of his userbase as a bunch of white supremacists and other sundry bigots. If the comment that Charles quoted you as making is accurate, you might want to reconsider adopting the I-was-banned-from-his-site martyr stance during the course of this discussion.
I’m moving up two posts.
Charles Johnson’s site–as a whole–poses a question that I find to be difficult. What is Islam?
We’ve all heard Bush’s statements about the “Religion of Peace,” and I certainly believe that a good portion of the world’s one billion Muslims are quite nice people. But who represents Islam?
One of my close friends for the past ten years or so comes from a Muslim background. He was born in the U.S., but his parents were immigrants, and most of his extended family lives in a Muslim country that is frequently in the news. When he went to college, he joined the campus Muslim cultural student group. Then he saw the sort of discourse that went on across the group’s email list–as he told me, some pretty vile anti-Semetic ranting went on as a matter of course. He’s a bit of a hothead, sometimes, so he yelled back before dropping out of the association. Fortunately, the threats of violence against him stopped after a few months, without serious effect…but I know it was only the presence of a huge Chinese friend that saved him one time.
So my friend’s a good guy, and there are other people who aren’t. My friend isn’t terribly devout, but the guys in that student group probably don’t buy into the whole “Islam is the Religion of Peace” idea either. Who speaks for Islam?
As important as the Saturday meditations on Sufi thought here are, Sufi ideology is not the subject of the sermons in Mecca, Medina, or Jerusalem. These cities are said to be holy within the Islamic faith–in fact, a pilgrimage to Mecca is one of the Pillars of Islam. But what do the pilgrims hear in the mosques of Mecca? Death to the Jews and the Americans.
So who is the voice of Islam? If there is hope to be found, that voice is not Wahhabist. But we must not ignore the hate that pours out of the holy cities of Islam, for how can it be inconsequential?
Correction: I’ll respond here.
Gabriel: It’s pretty clear that you’re carrying a grudge.
Charles, that’s too easy. You acknowledge that I raise the very objections I am raising now in your comments section (pre-grudge) and was banned for it.
I do ban people on both sides of the aisle… Am I banning and deleting too few people, or too many?
I don’t run your site. That does not mean that I am not entitled to an opinion or impression from what I have seen from it (which is not all bad – I am not making that claim).
I was banned from LGF on my second visit there. I was frankly shocked by the racist tone of a number (a minority) of commenters. In particular, I had run into a few comments about dirty Mexicans and lazy immigrants not adopting the “white man’s ways”. These comments, while not directed at me – more ‘around’ me – came after I had voiced my objections to intolerant comments of this type in particular because I am Mexican and an immigrant (as are both of my parents), but that should be beside the point. My impression at that time – and frankly I haven’t been back for quite some time to refresh that impression – was that LGF did function as a Muslim-bashing immigrant-bashing site, at least in the comments section. It seemed odd to me that these comments could co-exist with the solicitousness about anti-Semitism (which, by the way, I shared). I also did find it ironic that LGF had the chutzpah to be calling IndyMedia “Nazi Media”. I mean, you do notice at least the possibility that some might find that hypocritical, don’t you (didn’t you?).
I can’t think of any message board I visit that would not ban a guest who publically insulted the proprietor by claiming he ran a site that was a vehicle for hate speech and follwed up by insulting the entirety of his userbase as a bunch of white supremacists and other sundry bigots.
Shad,
First, I did not “insult the entirety of his userbase”. Indeed, I described the preponderance of the comments as unobjectionable.
But you are basically right. If you directly accuse the proprietor of running a site for hate speech, then you should expect to be banned. (I actually do not think that a ban was justified for that statement, but I will admit to being overly confrontational with Charles.) But that is still beside the point. Some of the folks over at LGF are white supremacists (or at least nativists) and certainly bigots. And the entire site did seem, at least at that time, to function as a vehicle for Muslim-bashing and immigrant-bashing. That’s sort of the issue here. That may or may not be Charles’ fault, but I can’t help that.
So, Gabriel et al…here’s the question (and it is a question, as opposed to a statement). If some of the posters at Charles’ site are ‘white supremacists (or at least nativists) and certainly bigots,’ and even if Charles were (which I doubt) does that make the site useless and Joe a bad guy for linking to it and me a bad guy for posting on Joe’s site?
A.L.
For the record, I’m weighing in on Gabriel‘s side here. I’ve encountered his comments here and on Roger Simon’s blog and it seems pretty clear to me that he has a balanced mind.
I for one agree with his characterization of LGF as expressed by the comment which got him banned. It’s remarkable to me that something so obvious should be unacceptable to Charles. I cannot but implore you to open your eyes, and read through all the comments you willfully host on your site. Others are reading it, and who knows what ideas they’re getting in their heads?
Charles, you seem pretty sensitive to smears. That’s fair, but there’s quite a bit of smearing of Muslims on your site, no?
Armed Liberal,
If I may, I think it does make Joe a bad guy for linking to LGF (if he has? I’m assuming since you said…) There are six degrees to everything right? So we’re all connected to white supremacists somehow. But the blogosphere is all about linking to make your point or direct your readers to juicy tidbits of news, commentary or whatever. If you’re linking to LGF without any sort of disclaimer, then you’re vouching for that site — all of it.
I think the best way to think of this is this: the innocence test — would you send your kids there to get informed about the world?
You may call me “thin-skinned,” but the accusations that there are “white supremacists” at LGF is one of the most disgusting lies I’ve seen yet. Go tell that to Julie Manyata, an African American GI who posts frequently. Go tell that to our many Pakistani and Indian readers. Go tell it to Alex of the 12th Man, who is also African American.
You people are flat-out lying, in your transparent attempt to smear LGF.
So Kori — were you banned from LGF too? What name did you post under?
So who is the voice of Islam?
Well, I’m going to go back to my earlier point about the French media defining Muslim extremists (suicide bombers, Hamas, the Iraqi ‘resistance’, etc.) as the essential representatives of who Muslims are, unfortunately more or less approvingly (or at least sympathetically) in the case of the French media.
I also know a lot of Muslims: three of my professional colleagues in my office (two of whom are good friends) are Muslims – two from Morocco and one from Tunisia. They are also largely pro-American and anti-Islamist. In particular, they view French policies towards the Arab world as extremely misguided. They are also basically ordinary educated cosmopolitan yuppies. (All of them find LGF offensive, though only one of them is an avid blog reader.)
I think you have to recognize when there is a cancer spread throughout an entire culture. Something like 75% of Muslims support bin Laden and many applaud suicide bombing (although I have no idea what the figures are among educated Muslims and I might question the real depth of the broader support). I certainly wouldn’t want to define the moderates and modernists out of the Muslim world, even if they are a minority.
Charles, keep ducking and weaving. Unfortunately you are responsible for the tone of your site and the comments, *despite your best efforts to shed responsibility.* (And you have the gal to criticize Marcos Zuniga!)
The comments I found were not “cherry-picked” they were the product of a *2 minute search*. If you want, I can spend an hour this weekend and really get down to it. But I have no real desire to dig through the filth you engender every day.
FACT: I could easily pick out hundreds of comments from any particular thread at LGF to illustrate compassion, humanity, humor, kindness, and camaraderie.
Maybe towards “us.” Never towards them. The only Muslims in your world are murderers and rapists.
Shame on you, sir.
Sam Barnes,
I can’t for the life of me think who the Voice of Christianity might be! So I doubt “Islam” is any different. Wikipedia gives a small overview of the different denominations here. Briefly, there are around 1.3 billion Muslims in the world today; 80% are Sunni (which is broken into four schools of thought), the rest are mostly Shi’a. There are also Ibadi Muslims, Wahhabis, Sufis and Baktashi (which are sometimes classified under the Sunni or Shi’a).
Ask the risk of wading into a controversy where angels fear to tread…
I met Charles about two years ago. I was relatively new to blogging and I didn’t know about his blog. He was a very nice man and I checked out his blog. It wasn’t my cup of tea, but he seemed like a good guy and I linked LGF.
I popped over a couple of times, but like I said, it wasn’t my cup of tea, so I stopped reading it. Many, many months later, I was prompted to take another look and was rather off-put by what I saw. But it was his blog to do with what he wants, so I just quietly de-linked LGF from my blog.
Aside from some of the commenters, I think I finally figured out what my problem is with LGF: from the stuff I read, it only reports the bad stuff going on in the Arab and Islamic worlds. Al Jazeera is taken to task, but there appears to be no recognition that Qatar allowed the US to base military operations there. Today, there was no indication that a Jordanian court ordered the death penalty for eight people convicted of assassinating a US diplomat.
Not all of the Arab and Islamic worlds are anti-American or anti-Western, but if you want to believe they are, LGF is your one-stop shop to help confirm that belief.
It’s Charles’ blog, he can do with it as he chooses, and I don’t have to read it. It probably serves, however, as flypaper for the FBI units that investigate domestic hate-groups. In that respect, it serves a useful purpose.
Kori –
Yes, I’d send my kids to LGF, and in fact have done so as they were researching various projects for school. I’ve also sent them to Indymedia and DU, as well as daily Kos and others.
As I’ve noted, the discussions there (LGF) leave a pretty bad taste in my mouth; I’ve raised the pioint here as well as face to face with Charles. Charles reasonably responded then (as now) that it’s overwhelming given the volumes he deals with; I also think that his calibrations are somewhat … wider-set … than mine. I have a very narrow idea of what I want from these discussion threads, and I get it; serious, sometimes impassioned, discussion of isses that matter to me. I’m certainly more strict than Charles is, and my standards are different as well.
I’ve dealt with serious racists in my life (as *noted*, I’m a somewhat dark-skinned mutt), and in my experience with Charles, I don’t believe him to be one.
I think he’s further along the path of believing that a major conflict with the Arab world is inevitible than I am, but I think that the odds he’s right aren’t insiginificant. I’m paddling as hard as I can to keep it from coming true.
A.L.
Charles, I wasn’t banned from your site. I’ve only gone a few times because other bloggers linked to them and I was curious. But I have no desire to visit there again, despite your (I assume) best intentions. It seems you could go further in this argument if you advocated on the part of unrestrained free speech, but otherwise, it’s pretty obvious the type of company you apparently voluntarily keep. I cannot stand such hate and I abhor the fact that it might give people the impression that it’s okay to hate Muslims. Given our history with the Holocaust, and indeed our own founding, I would say it’s pretty obvious that religious persecution is a dangerous activity to participate in (or encourage). It’s a fine line between criticizing another’s religion justly and advocating, even through implication, wholesale smears of it. You’ve clearly gone way beyond it.
I may piss a few people off here–honest to God, I don’t mean to. But some of you guys need to lighten up a bit. I’ve only been to LGF once, but I enjoy dropping in on Idiotarian Rottweiler periodically to have a giggle at the nutballs. I don’t bother to comment. What would be the use? Those people aren’t arguing; they’re ranting. But I mean c’mon, they’re cartoons, walking postmodern parodies of themselves. I don’t come away from Idiotarian Rottweiler hating Muslims. I come away from it laughing at the head cases that comment there.
Kori –
Let me roll a skunk into the discussion.
You say ‘…I would say it’s pretty obvious that religious persecution is a dangerous activity to participate in (or encourage).‘
What if the religion involved is bad? What if it, as a mainstream value, advocates things which we find horrible and intolerable?
You’re starting out pretty much as the rest of us do; assuming that everyone is the same except that they eat spicier food than we do and wear more interesting clothers (hyperbole, I know, but bear with me).
What if they aren’t?
A.L.
Charles deletes “PC” posts rather quickly, A.L.
Why not the disgusting, cruel, inhumane ones? I guess it’s ok to joke about rape, murder, “Yassin-like piles of arms and legs.”
Haha, right? I’m sure if I referred to a “Babi Yar-like pile” it wouldn’t last 3 seconds, and thank God.
Of course it’s inevitably us and them, A.L. (re: your last post) But there are degrees and limits to everything, and Charles is way over the line over and over again. Don’t buy his whole “I have thousands of comments” line, he polices them well enough for what offends him.
It’s what doesn’t offend him that is rather scary.
Ann Salisbury wrote:
Aside from some of the commenters, I think I finally figured out what my problem is with LGF: from the stuff I read, it only reports the bad stuff going on in the Arab and Islamic worlds.
Currently on LGF’s front page is a story about Pakistan cracking down on Islamic terror gangs, two or three links to Iraqi blogs who exhibit a refreshing level of awareness, and a link to a piece by Arab writer Nonie Darwish decrying the Islamic radicalism on campuses.
Charles, I wasn’t banned from your site. I’ve only gone a few times because other bloggers linked to them and I was curious. But I have no desire to visit there again, despite your (I assume) best intentions. It seems you could go further in this argument if you advocated on the part of unrestrained free speech, but otherwise, it’s pretty obvious the type of company you apparently voluntarily keep. I cannot stand such hate and I abhor the fact that it might give people the impression that it’s okay to hate Muslims. Given our history with the Holocaust, and indeed our own founding, I would say it’s pretty obvious that religious persecution is a dangerous activity to participate in (or encourage). It’s a fine line between criticizing another’s religion justly and advocating, even through implication, wholesale smears of it. You’ve clearly gone way beyond it.
SAO –
I’ll suggest that each of us has a voice (in the sense of a voice in a choir) in this discussion. I don’t think that Charles’ is a voice of calm consideration and debate, as I don’t think that Frank J’s is or Mike Hendrix’s is. (Note that I obviously want to wrap that mantle around us here)
You know what he is.
I know what he is, although you & I may characterize him differently (and I’m working on a post on the role of anger right now).
Why does characterizing him make him not someone whose work is useful and sometimes intersting, if distasteful?
Heiddeger is a good philosopher, even if he was an awful man. Arendt is a good philsoopher, even if she loved Heiddiger – even after the war.
I can point to as many cases of this as I have time for.
A.L.
Did I double post? Sorry about that! You’re free to delete it AL! 🙂
I’ll get back to you soon. Have to run out for a moment.
By the way, we have over 3,000 posted comments already today.
That’s pretty good evidence that Charles can be separated from any line crossing that may occur in the comments. He can’t police it, and either he does provide a forum or he doesn’t. The argument that he can anticipate some line crossing in the comments every time he posts doesn’t prove responsibility. Because, again, either he does provide a forum or he doesn’t, and it’s pretty clear that it’s good that he does. It might be a different story if most of the comments were racist; but I don’t believe they are.
LGF bashing is easy only if you assume that in principle no culture should ever be subjected to vehement criticism, and only if you assume that whenever such criticism is in bad form it’s racist. These assumptions just aren’t true.
LGF bashing is hard if you believe that we have an important duty to demand that all cultures meet basic moral standards, and that even making this demand by expressing indignation in bad form is in fulfilment of the duty. LGF bashing is wrongheaded if most LGF commenters are attempting to fulfill the duty, in one form or another. It’s simply not good to brand someone a racist when in fact he is fulfilling an important duty, albeit in bad form.
In short, LGF bashers are going to have to prove that taking the mickey out of Arab culture is always racist, because it certainly isn’t obvious that it is. Otherwise, bash the particular racist commenters (as sometimes LGFers do, by the way), and leave the blog alone.
Thank you, Charles, for all the highly informative posts you’ve given us these last few years.
Because of the subject that Charles covers a lot, the bad side of Islam, LGF gets a number of disagreeable people. That includes racists of all stripes. However, his time is limited. Perhaps Charles should consider having someone act as a “policeman”, or something. Of course, there goes the idea of “unmoderated comments.”
Perhaps the solution would be simply to ban nobody. Leave everything in. I mean, that is the only way to be fair, right?
I understand, A.L. But shouldn’t there be realistic limits for what one can say and remain “under the mantle?”
“Religion of hate, religion of wife-scalping, religion of ignorance.” or, (referring to Americans he disagrees with) “The fifth column.”
You don’t compromise with a fifth column, you silence them. Notice, Charles isn’t interested in “mantles”, he’s interested in war.
Does that make the site useless and Joe a bad guy for linking to it and me a bad guy for posting on Joe’s site?
Well, no. Not in my opinion. LGF is still one of the best sites on the web for information about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Muslim world, and terrorism. I certainly find information there I would not (at least easily) find elsewhere. It focuses largely on the negative, as Ann points out, but that’s partly its orientation, to alert its readers to threats coming from that part of the world.
I also don’t think Charles Johnson is a bigot, as opposed to someone who tolerates them for his own reasons. Indeed, he seems not even to acknowledge that they could exist, which I find odd. It is one thing to say that the vast majority of the commenters are not bigots (indeed, almost all of us here have been commenters on LGF at one time) or that he can’t control them. It’s another to say they don’t even exist. I think Charles’ over-sensitivity to criticism is a bit silly, but maybe it reflects a realization on some level that there is an arguably legitimate concern. (?)
I’m done. The smear going on here is painfully obvious; out of context quotes, out of context thread titles, outright lies, and a whole lot of willfull blindness. Have fun, kids.
P.S. Thank you, Jim, for the kind words.
SAO –
Well, so far, Charles has certainly participated in a reasonable, if passionate discusison here, so what would lead you to think thst he doesn’t fit?
A.L.
Oh, cry me a river, Charles. Did we represent you *out of context*? The irony is killing me.
You can at least stand up for yourself, not whine.
The argument that he can anticipate some line crossing in the comments every time he posts doesn’t prove responsibility… LGF bashing is easy only if you assume that in principle no culture should ever be subjected to vehement criticism, and only if you assume that whenever such criticism is in bad form it’s racist. These assumptions just aren’t true… LGF bashing is hard if you believe that we have an important duty to demand that all cultures meet basic moral standards, and that even making this demand by expressing indignation in bad form is in fulfilment of the duty.
Jim,
How many straw men are you going to put up here? Have you read any of the previous comments to note what is being criticized? Because it has little to do with the platitudes you are defending here.
I wasn’t expecting him to come here and start freaking out. He’s an intelligent and funny guy, that’s why his blog’s so popular. But he’s also being disingenous and coping-out lame excuses left and right.
Did you look at his site again, A.L.? Click “all entries” and compare the post-titles.
Charles may very well be right. Maybe we’re facing something so goddamn ugly and dangerous that all we should do is convince everybody how ugly it is before it’s too late. I just don’t think we’re there yet. Nor do I think we’re on the losing side of this struggle.
Charles has certainly participated in a reasonable, if passionate discusison here, so what would lead you to think thst he doesn’t fit?
A.L.,
There are two main issues at LGF: (i) throwing the red meat (the posts themselves) and (ii) driving the crowd in the back in a particularly (hateful) direction. I can sort of deal with the red meat – hey, how positive can you get with this kind of stuff? – and I don’t fault Charles for lack of crowd control (as some here are implying), but rather controling the crowd in a particular way (as others suggest). Even here, I’m willing to consider that maybe my perceptions have been skewed or are incomplete. What troubles me is that Charles doesn’t recognize a problem when there clearly is one.
Kori,
Not so fast. There IS a difference here between Christianity and Islam in terms of locating a voice. Sure, Islam has competing strains of ideology (of which Wahhabism and Sufism are but two), and so does Christianity (Catholics, various Protestant sects, etc.).
However, if you want to know about Catholic theology, the Pope’s not a bad guy to start with, as a source. If you want to know about mainstream Protestant theology, Billy Graham has been pretty influential in the modern era. Yeah, there’s disagreement, but it’s not that hard to find a short list of major ideological power centers in Christianity.
What about Islam? I’m not necessarily talking about a singular voice, like the Pope, since Islam is more akin to Protestantism in its decentralization. But who are the most influential thinkers? When your average Muslim considers the Koran, of whom does he think, “That guy explains my beliefs persuasively and well”?
A pilgrimage to Mecca is one of the Five Pillars of Islam. Islamic tradition clearly recognizes certain cities as holy. As such, it seems to me that the mullahs and imams of those cities would have a bigger soapbox on which to stand within the faith. Wouldn’t the title, Most Revered Mullah of Mecca mean something to a Muslim, whether he was from Saudi Arabia or Indonesia?
Charles Johnson has pointed out over and over and over again that the religious leaders of Islam’s holiest cities preach a message of hatred–aimed at the Jews and the West. Based on my reasoning above, isn’t this a topic of concern? If these guys truly speak for Islam, then a war of civilizations is inevitable–one that both sides will lose, but the Islamic side will be obliterated. If there are other voices, however, there is still hope.
Ayatollah Sistani may be a sufficiently reasonable man with enough influence in his world to start building an ideological power center that is not at war with the West. I hope there are others as well that can wrest the heart of Islam from the Wahhabists, for the sake of my friend and his family at the very least.
Armed Liberal,
You see, I wouldn’t send my kids there under any circumstances, unless as an experiment in understanding the diversity of views existing in this world. But then I would wait until they were pretty mature and able to think critically.
It’s clear to me that not all adults are able to think critically.
I don’t think it’s an adequate excuse for the type of speech at LGF to say one cannot police all the comments on one’s site because of volume. This seems like shirking responsiblity to me. Either you’re responsible for them or you’re not — there’s no number after which it’s acceptable to let a few of the obscene ones go.
That said, you see, I’m not arguing that Charles has a certain worldview — I’m not criticizing him directly so much as I am his site — his entire site. So whether he holds racist/bigotted views or not is not so significant as to whether racist/bigotted views abound on his site for all to see.
If you will, I consider myself a “paddler” against uncivil political discussion and more dear to me, hate in general.
Now, regarding the skunk:
What if the religion involved is bad? What if it, as a mainstream value, advocates things which we find horrible and intolerable?
Well, that depends on whether it puts its thought into action (including speech) or not. We must see the difference between politics (where we are allowed legitimate dissent) and religion (which, we believe, all are free to reasonably practice).
You see, what we find horrible or intolerable politically is not necessarily the same as what we find horrible or intolerable religiously. Consider abortion, capital punishment, even the issue of whether one should go to church or not. Politics and religion collide when discussion over a society’s “values” is necessary in the case of resolving a political issue. But it’s important to put the donkey before the cart — the discussion is political in nature, first. Which means it must have certain references that will differ from those used in a religious discussion.
This is important because we speak of the Muslim world, but even a quick visit to Wikipedia indicates that there are lots of Muslims out there, and lots of different kinds. Furthermore, they live in lots of different countries, with different histories, socieities and cultures. So, it’s not really possible to speak of a “bad” religion in this case, as it encompasses so much as to be meaningless, but even if we did, we’re having a religious discussion, not a political discussion. In which case, the most important concept to remember is freedom of religion.
If you are talking about speech (“advocation of things we find horrible and intolerable”), then there is reason to believe that it is an action, then it may be political in nature, and all political issues may be legitimately discussed (freedom of speech) and all that. Even if the speech is religious in nature, if the speech is advocating actions intolerable to our political system (terrorism, forced wearing of veils, etc.), then it’s not appropriate. So I guess my answers to your questions are: if a religion is “bad” in your view, then have a respectful constructive discussion about it. If people, religious or not, are advocating things we find intolerable politically then have a political discussion about it.
Don’t mix the two.
It’s very confusing when it appears that people either live in political systems that are religious in nature (Iran, Saudi Arabia…), or they invoke religion in advocating political action (AQ, Hamas, Palestine), but religion and politics are not the same. The cure-all to the Arab world’s Islamic political problem is the concept of freedom of religion, in my opinion. The fact that these advocates don’t tolerate religious dissent among their fellow travellers in this world is the number one indication that they would/do rule oppressively with public policy.
But when “we” show intolerance towards Islam and not Islamist politics (as exhibited on LGF), then we are suffering from the same bigotry that has lead those people to advocate oppressive politics. We’re, in ideas and speech at least, no better.
I visit WoC and LGF daily.
I avoid the comments on LGF because of reason stated above, while I always scan the comments on WoC. WoC is exceptional in the quality of comments. And I know they work hard to maintain this valued aspect of their blog.
Charles could not possibly provide what he provides for his readers and foster commentors as the WoCers do. These are very different types of blogs. However, you can separate the blog from the commentors.
There is no doubt that Charles is especially harsh to some segments of the Islamic world. In my view, the criticism is much deserved. But to characterize his blog as complete Muslim bashing is erroneous. And even if I don’t agree with everything Charles himself may write, I find the majority of his posts interesting and educational.
There are cultures that encourage bad behavior. There are news biases that allow this to go unquestioned. There are folks like SAO and Kori who think it’s racist to bring such behavior into the open. And then those who apologize for such cultures.
I think Charles should be commended for bringing so much news of this nature to one location, without allowing himself to be stifled by objections to his commentors or by accusations of bigotry or racism. And I hope that similar accusations against Joe and AL do not cause these gentlemen to rethink their link to LGF.
CBK
Sam Barnes,
But who are the most influential thinkers?
I don’t know! (Honestly.) But it’s a good question. I’m sure there are plenty.
When your average Muslim considers the Koran, of whom does he think, “That guy explains my beliefs persuasively and well”?
Well, first off, Mohammed. But I think more importantly, I don’t think that among 1.3 billion people, you can find an “average Muslim”. I know far more about Christians and I can’t even envision what an “average Christian” would look like (the difference in Protestants and Catholics being pretty different already — like Sunni and Shi’a?). If you consider Buddhism for example, of which there many many adherants, there is no “average Buddhist” — and the “masters” which Buddhists follow can differ quite considerably (at least they think so). Externally speaking, it’s easy to see them as one big lump but when it comes down to it, I don’t think 1.3 billion people are being brainwashed to sing the same tune, or even five different tunes — I don’t think that’s possible.
Whether hate speech, even when religious, is a topic of concern I addressed in my post above.
As I understand it, Islam can be overtly political, much the way the Catholic Church was for most of its existence (mixing with European kings/emperors and all that). I don’t know enough about it to address this issue, but what these folks really need (in my humble opinion) is an injection of independent thought à la Luther. On the outside, as a non-Islamist state, the US would do better to advocate that than some sort of attempt at converting them to American thought. It’s a fine line, and certainly many Americans (multiculturalists, postmodernists) have been faulted for thinking Muslims are naturally sheep, but they’re not. They were taught to be sheep. Let’s not play the same game and treat them that way too. As soon as stop seeing people as individuals, we’re on a slippery slope to violence.
Charles seeks to provocative. And he certainly succeeds. Based on the comments that his blog can be informative, I guess he provokes thought, but it is also clear from his comments that he provokes hate. He can alter his language to maximize the former and minimize the latter. He chooses not to. That’s informative.
–But when “we” show intolerance towards Islam and not Islamist politics (as exhibited on LGF), then we are suffering from the same bigotry that has lead those people to advocate oppressive politics. We’re, in ideas and speech at least, no better.–
If they can’t manage to find separation between their religion and their politics, how can we discuss the politics without discussing the religion?
And how do you discuss those whose goal is to politicize the religion? And those who use religion as the tool to control politics? Particularly with so many schools of thought involved?
Perhaps we could just label all those Muslims (those who mix politics and religion to the point of being indistiguishable and those who advocate harm and hate and barbarism through religion) under one simple banner…
Something like, oh, I don’t know, “Religion of Peace ™ “
–But when “we” show intolerance towards Islam and not Islamist politics (as exhibited on LGF), then we are suffering from the same bigotry that has lead those people to advocate oppressive politics. We’re, in ideas and speech at least, no better.–
If they can’t manage to find separation between their religion and their politics, how can we discuss the politics without discussing the religion?
And how do you discuss those whose goal is to politicize the religion? And those who use religion as the tool to control politics? Particularly with so many schools of thought involved?
Perhaps we could just label all those Muslims (those who mix politics and religion to the point of being indistiguishable and those who advocate harm and hate and barbarism through religion) under one simple banner…
Something, oh, I don’t know, something with a little sarcasm, a little irony…
How about something like… “Religion of Peace ™ “
Let’s step back for a minute and ask ourselves: what good is being accomplished by the continual gnashing of the teeth?
We know there’s a problem in the Middle East.
It’s in our interest to strengthen the hand of moderate voices within Islam; that’s why I like Joe’s posts on Sufism, for instance.
So why foster an environment that simply raises hackles and is likely to turn off moderate Arabs? If someone makes fun of your parents, for instance, even if you’ve done the same, you get pissed. It’s natural to align ourselves with those close to us when they’re attacked, and anti-colonialism is a powerful unifying force. No need to enable it.
We’re supposed to be the good guys, remember?
As for policing 3,000 comments, having clear posting rules and routinely and fairly enforcing them leads to good behavior.
I think Charles should be commended for bringing so much news of this nature to one location, without allowing himself to be stifled by objections to his commentors or by accusations of bigotry or racism.
He has been so commended. I commend him. To that extent and with the reservations expressed. He is going to get these types of objections pretty much no matter what he does. That does not insulate him from legitimate criticism.
The simple answer to all these questions is, when you don’t know, learn.
If they can’t manage to find separation between their religion and their politics, how can we discuss the politics without discussing the religion? And how do you discuss those whose goal is to politicize the religion? And those who use religion as the tool to control politics? Particularly with so many schools of thought involved?
Oh, but some of them can. We should show political support for them. To engage “the other half”, point out how much worse off, materially, states are that do mix religion and politics are. Appeal to their common sense. Economic leverage helps here. We’ve got a lot of good things to share with them here — freedom of religion/speech, capitalism — if we stopped thinking of the masses as the enemy, we might be able to engage them productively, constructively.
pratike…
What is served by ignoring what goes on in the Mosques of Mecca? Or what goes on between the Palestinians and Israelis? How is the Muslim world served by ignoring this?
Why not accept both Joe’s Sufi Saturday and LFG’s Middle East News Harvest?
You say…
Let’s step back for a minute and ask ourselves: what good is being accomplished by the continual gnashing of the teeth?
I’ll tell you…
We are a forgetful people. We get comfortable in our comfortable (comparatively) lives.
I fear, and I believe Charles does too, that if we don’t remind ourselves of what goes on in the world of our enemies, we will become complacent and be nailed again.
Your parent analogy can be turned too. If you see your father was a deadbeat, you may decide, once you accept this and learn the true characteristics of a deadbeat, then choose no to be anything like your father.
Hmmm… don’t remember suggesting ignoring anything. Just questioning the value of a nearly-constant stream of invective, and the tacit tolerance of the same type of speech that we abhor. It’s not enough to issue a disclaimer. We must set an example for others to follow, and police them when they don’t.
Remember: Or-La’amim.
This is A.L. I’m pulling posts that suggest – or respond to – the notion of shutting down LGF. As noted, I’m not in the business of shutting down other blogs, and I have no interest in seeing my blog used for that.
If you were responding to the poster who suggested the shutdown, please accept my apologies, but I don’t even want the topic raised here.
A.L.
This is A.L. I’m pulling posts that suggest – or respond to – the notion of shutting down LGF. As noted, I’m not in the business of shutting down other blogs, and I have no interest in seeing my blog used for that.
If you were responding to the poster who suggested the shutdown, please accept my apologies, but I don’t even want the topic raised here.
A.L.
Charles has started a thread encouraging LGFers to respond to your attacks on his site:
Now feel the wrath of his lizardoid minions!
“LGF Attacked at Winds of Change”:http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=10532_LGF_Attacked_at_Winds_of_Change#comments
“LGF and all of our readers and commenters are under attack (“white supremacists,” “Nazis,” “hate speech,” etc. etc. you know the drill) at Winds of Change. I’ve had my say. Perhaps some of you might want to defend yourselves against these accusations too.”
Is this really what you wanted, Armed Liberal?
Gabriel Gonzalez And the entire site did seem, at least at that time, to function as a vehicle for Muslim-bashing and immigrant-bashing.
You are way too precious for this Jihad on the West, Jihad on Spain, Jihad on Israel,
Jihad on the USA, Jihad on India, Jihad in Chechnya, Jihad on Kosovo, Jihad on Philippines and so
on.
Um, Mr. “LGF is Hateful,” your analysis is a bit thin. Don’t you think? An activist is no good without analysis.
Gabriel, I’m not sure how to reply to your charge of straw man. Perhaps the problem is that you and I would disagree over what counts as hyperbole/bad form in LGF comments and what counts as racist/bigoted. I don’t think spouting, for example, “Religion of suicide bombing!” is necessarily bigoted. It might even be uttered by an extremely indignant and peace-loving Muslim at his bellicose coreligionists.
if any of you can provide sufficient examples of tolerant islamic religious leaders outside of sufism, please do. otherwise, you will have to admit that LGF representation of muslim world is correct. do not complain about the mirror when the face is ugly…
Search results for Paleostinian (352 matches)
How is this word "Paleostinian" a bigoted word? It’s the truth. These yobs are living in the stone age (paleolithic) same as Sadr’s armed
Shi’ite mob in Iraq.
Read up on the life of Muhammad ya doofus. Read up on his life of
thievery, murder, war crimes and pedophilia. Then consider that the Koran commands the faithful to emulate the “exemplary” life of Muhammad. This is why we have a huge problem.
Total # of comments cited by “LGF is hateful”: 707.
Total # of comments at LGF: 648,025.
Percentage of “hateful comments”: 0.00109 %.
Armed Liberal:
“I think that the good thing about our side is that we’re willing to accept the humanity of everyone – including our enemies,…”
I do believe that this is exactly your downfall (and hopefully not mine). You do not see your enemy as an enemy. When you are attacked, your enemy is somehow a victim, their behavior caused in some way by the “system” or your own behavior.
I’m willing to admit to what I see… We are in a rapidly growing global ideological war. World War III or IV, I don’t care how it’s labeled. The enemy likes to call it “Global Jihad”. Perhaps you wish to give up your freedoms and surrender right now, so we will avoid all violence. It would be the peaceful thing to do, right? All violence is bad, right?
You are naive.
There is a solution to this. For those offended by Charles’ weblog, don’t read it. It is after all a personal diary. A very informative one, I might add, that frequently has information not found in very many other places in the blogosphere (that is my bias showing). If you feel strongly enough about something, start your own weblog. If you are interesting enough and have something important enough to say, you will find readers who you too can hopefully sway in the “right way”. If you can’t find sufficient readers to support your weblog, maybe what you are saying is not really a universal truth.
Technically, Charles’ 1st rights can’t be violated without state action. Then again, there are certain non-discrimination requirements (different amendment) if you’re a place of public accomodation, but that hasn’t been applied to the net. Yet. Also, Charles isn’t a protected class for those purposes (again, probably). I think Charles would lose that suit, but it might be close.
And by the way, not one of the words cited by “LGF is hateful” can be found in anything I have written.
As an Arab and a (fairly) regular participant on LGF, I find racist not LGF, but the anti-war people and sites such as this, people who would rather see us suffer under the brutality of Arab and Islamic regimes lest, god forbid, America should protect itself.
why do you not protest against the Arab and Islamic opression of women? the brutal Syrian occupation of Lebanon? the PA/PLO’s terrorism of Palestinian dissidents? The endemic mutilation of girls’ genitals in Egypt?
Do you actually care about the well-being of Arabs? or only about venting your hostility towards America?
By the way, LGF has at least 4 arab regulars. How many arabs and muslims do you have participating here?
You are the racists, not LGF
This is A.L. I’m pulling posts that suggest – or respond to – the notion of shutting down LGF. As noted, I’m not in the business of shutting down other blogs, and I have no interest in seeing my blog used for that.
If you were responding to the poster who suggested the shutdown, please accept my apologies, but I don’t even want the topic raised here.
A.L.
By the way, as an aside…
If you want to learn how to set up and do web pages and a weblog, go to Charles’ weblog and use the links that he kindly provides to a host of sites with specific information on creating web pages, CSS, etc. Really good stuff, so no darn excuses. Stop whining and start blogging.
I suppose we’d need to ban Kos from the “intarweb” then, too, wouldn’t we?
Listen – did you ever hear about an organization called the ACLU?
Did you know that they protect the Nazi Party?
Did you know they protect the Nation of Islam?
Did you know they protect A.N.S.W.E.R?
Do you even understand what free speech is?
Do you understand that free speech means that right-wingers can’t stifle you?
Do you understand that free speech means you can’t stifle the right-wing?
You will never, ever, ever convince someone you’re right by forcing them to shut up. If anything, you’ll teach them quite the opposite.
Ever heard of learn by example?
You apparently have never heard of any of these ideas .
Yo! LGF is Hateful. . .
Do you realize that you managed to come up with a percentage of 1.345 to the -03?
807 out of over 600,000 comments verging on 11,000 posts. You could toss in Nuke Mecca and/or Medina and several other objectionable comments and you still would have the barest fraction of 1% of the total comments made on LGF.
Look, you all seem like reasonably pleasant people but I side with Charles in this; Islam is both religion and political movement, dangerously so. More politics these days than religion in fact. It is the Red Scare of the 21st century and should be treated as such. What frightens me is the refusal of so many to stare cold harsh truth in the face and be willing to call things what they are.
I don’t like the hateful comments either though there have been rare times where I’ve allowed passion to overrule discretion. To broadbrush the entire site as hateful, fascist, white supremacist or in some other way dismiss it is to bury your head in the sand and hope those bad people go away.
I’m also a (fairly) regular participant at LGF. Yes, there are a few posters that take things too far, usually just after another homicide bombing in Israel or somesuch.
But often the offense that sets off the PC trolls (and yes, that’s what I honestly consider them) is when Charles simply points out something that’s a fact, like the bile spilling out of Egyptian state-run papers, or the often shocking results of opinion polls in the Arab world, or something similar.
I don’t think there’s much hate there that isn’t righteously earned.
First of all those who uncomfortable with LGF please answer me one question…
What is you opinion of the Taliban, of muslim extremists and of Terrorism in general.
Does LGF in any way shape or form say that it is attempting to give a description of all of Islam? Many times it posts links to comments from Moderate Islams and we applaud those who stand up to terrorism.
We all hope and pray that a true moderate voice of Islam will show it self….CAIR is not it.
While the comments section is at times filled with reactionay and incinderiary comments. The worst of these usually are a result of a horriffic attack on women and children.
Now if women and children being deliberately murdered does not enrage you, there is no further point of discussion.
LGF helps to shine a light of awareness onto many of the ugly truths of Militant Islam and the dangers we face in the world today. I do not post often, but I do post. Does that make me a racist now? Should I tell my friend and co worker when he gets back from Pakistan to hate me?
LGF is helping to ask the questions and raise the points about terrorism and the middle east, that our politicians are too afraid and too concerned with re election to bring up.
If we are upset over the celebration of American soldiers deaths and you have a problem with that I suggest you stay away.
I am going link 2 examples to ask you all a question.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=10503_An_Iraqi_on_Al-Sadr
now this article is from an Iraqi criticizing Sadr is he a racist?
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=10492_The_Watchers_Are_Watching_Us
Then this interesting post that seems to foretell this drive to attack LGF.
I love WoC for excellent articles and breakdowns of current events. It would be a shame if you were also accused of hate speech simply because of comments posted on your site.
Because those out there who do not want Terrorism discussed for what it is, who want the US to go back to sleep….thats what they will do…
I have seen endless debates on the comments section with those who disagree with the majority. Those who keep it civil, do not spew vile and racist remarks, and do not attempt to label the site racist…Stay and they come back…..
Debate ideas …please discuss the issues he raises, but do not attempt to silence him because you do not like the truth as he sees it.
You neo-liberals are so clueless!
When you constantly shelter Muslims from criticism of their religion, you not only are complicit in cheating them out of a reformation, but also of the opportunity to be more whole.
Thank you Charles for not being intimidated by the PC thought police.
As an lgf regular of Palestinian muslim stock (and an avid Winds of Change reader as well, although I don’t comment here as often), I find the suggestion that lgf is a racist hate site laughable. Individual posters may go around the bend, but they don’t reflect the group consensus there. Most of the time, they get yelled down. If they don’t, it’s because they’re being ignored, not because they’re being agreed with.
I wish lgf had a way to sort threads by conversations; it would make it immediately obvious that the most hateful posters are either chastised or ignored.
The claim that Charles is racist or hateful is untenable. It’s clear that being unable to convincingly pin the “racist” button onto his lapel is driving some of his critics batty. The best they can come up with is “he refuses to ban some of the hateful posters”. Thin gruel. He also won’t ban some of the longest-running trolls (I’ll be kind: persistent contrarians) such as Gordon, DU Jimbo and BPP. view from Ireland lasted over two years before he had to ban her for only derailing threads, never contributing anything. That’s remarkable tolerance.
I wonder how long the Republican versions of those four would last on Democratic Underground.
It’s pretty clear that his quickest ban triggers are egregiously offensive posts and the obnoxious trolls that assume multiple identities and carry out imaginary conversations with themselves. And spammers. I think the chief complaint here is that Charles isn’t following the exact parameters for banning people that the complainants think that they would follow in his shoes. I suggest that the obvious rejoinder to that is to start your own site, and police it accordingly! Charles has his personal system, and he’s comfortable with the result. Deal. You don’t *have* to read the comments; you don’t *have* to read lgf at all. Why so much venom at the site? FreeRepublic and Democratic Underground, among others, have far rowdier, viler comments but don’t seem to inspire anywhere near such dedicated energetic denunciation. Every few weeks, this same conversation turns up on yet another blog. In Charles’ shoes, I’d be much thinner-skinned in the face of such repetitive tedium (I’m not talking about Armed Liberal, but some of the commentors in this thread). He’s quite patient to keep explaining himself, as if he owed someone like Gabriel Gonzalez an accounting of his actions and inner moral compass.
I enjoy Winds of Change for some of the most astute analysis available anywhere, including the comments, but the quality of the comments is way down on this particular thread. Not everyone, please don’t be offended, unless you’re one of the clowns who knows who you are. In that case, yes, I’m talking about you.
I’ve been reading LGF for nearly a year and I have NEVER seen a SINGLE racist comment by Charles.
Y’all are calling LGF racist because crying “racist” is the last-ditch argument of the far left. Disagree with FoxNews? They’re “racist!” Don’t like W? it’s a “racist administration!”
Why don’t you on the Left have some dignity and make principled arguments instead of just name-calling?
This is A.L. I’m pulling posts that suggest – or respond to – the notion of shutting down LGF. As noted, I’m not in the business of shutting down other blogs, and I have no interest in seeing my blog used for that.
If you were responding to the poster who suggested the shutdown, please accept my apologies, but I don’t even want the topic raised here.
A.L.
Okay, late to the thread, but perhaps have a thought or two…
Several people don’t like the tone of many of posters at LGF.
Why this matters has not been established, but still, an interesting point, given the popularity of the sight.
Here is my feedback, as a daily reader and occasional poster. Some of the comments are certainly crude, non-PC, occasionally hurtful, inaccurate, poorly considered, and quite frankly, lazy.
In short, they represent a fairly average cross-section of American political life. This does not make me proud, per se, but life is life. As a professional journalist, I deal with it all the time.
But that’s not good enough, since we are talking about a broader issue here, which is whether LGF and “the minions” are hateful and having a negative effect on discourse.
The answer to that is…..no. Hell no.
I have found–and so will you—that the preponderance of angry remarks at LGF is in direct correspondance to what has been posted By CJ. For example, given Hamas/Al-Aqsa MB, Hizbollah’s infatuation with slaughtering large amounts of Jews whose crime it is to go to work on a crosstown bus, should CJ post the news of this…maybe a picture or two of a bloody stump, especailly if it’s a kids…well, some of his Jewish readers who’ve lost relatives, or worry about ones over there, or even the rest of us, who’ve headr far off, unpleasant things about ovens in years gone by, and read MEMRI….well, they get pissed.
CJ got pissed and stayed pissed. He takes it personally, I guess, which might be dumb. Except: he’s not wrong. CJ is a transcriptionist, a link whore, if you will, for something that has been swept under the rug for way, way too long.
Islam has been given a very free ride for ex-libs and Dems like me, who looked the other way for a long time, pretended to neither see or hear, in the hopes of being inclusive and multi-cultural.
As someone who watched people jump out of a building in NYC 30 months ago–I was walking in as they were falling out–I dont think enough people get pissed, quite frankly.
So people post some stupid things over there, to be certain. Get over it; I certainly have to, when I check out DU, or quite frankly, KOS, now that he’s working this “Merc” Jag.
tahnk you for your bandwidth. you have a fine site and should be proud. Ill look for the tipjar on the way out.
Charles, your math is off. I calculated the figures twice and came up with 807. “LGF – the site that fact checks your ummm tush”
Let me state that lgf is one of the 3 or 4 sites I read almost every day, the comments irregularly.
In my opinion Charles is the greatest service to the internet. NOBODY else is willing to strut out the real facts on the prevalence of absolute medeival backward hatred and violence present in many Islamic countries around the world and what is really said in their media – tv and radio. Mosques, schools and right down the line.
So while Jordanians arrested supposedly the murderers of an American diplomat (I haven’t read that yet) the Jordanian Parliament has also rejected 5 or 6 times a law banning honor killings by law.. and the people elect most of these guys, while the King was the one who proposed it several times.
Finally, as I read through most of the first 2/3 of this string I once again note how Charles nailed Gabriel. Charles is incredible how he remembers everything and does not allow anyone to get away with their bullshit.
That being said sometimes lgf posters do go over the line… big wup! Comparing it to Indymedia which is overall a majority blatant moonbat hate site, is total moral relevating bullshit.
One example I will give – while I find what Rachel Corrie did and how the PLO is purposely utilizing Western kids to throw into dangerous situations and if one should die, a big +…. and while I am enraged at how ISM and the PLO through an eager Reuters (of course) and general worldwide media lied about the way she died, supplied a false picture and of course blared how Israel “ran her over” while she was protecting “a house”…. Well, What else is new? Al-Dura on the PLO essence in my opinion is lying whenever possible I still think it is stupid and makes lgf look bad when jokes about her being pancaked is made….
On the other hand without lgf leading the way the blatant propaganda above which is still accepted and likely believed by some here, would never have been exposed the way it was….
So while I might have a few minor quibbles with lgf it is overall an invaluble site that I check out every day….
And to Charles who thankfully is an extrmeley intelligent and thorogh guy, as well apparently a pretty good guy, I SAY THANKS MAN..
Mike
PS You name any liberal blogger you know and they all likely check out lgf pretty regularly. I can name a few and I bet Charles can name many others that would not readily admit it.
The info is invaluable and squashed in the PC media.
The only criticism of immigrants I’ve seen are:
1) ILLEGAL immigrants
2) Those who want to do us in, like these guys…
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/100401picts.htm
Scroll down. Ya, there they are at an ATM. Ya, in WALMART! Ya, at your corner gas station.
They are here. They are around us. I’m critical of these guys. Not exactly hate speech, now is it.
This is A.L. I’m pulling posts that suggest – or respond to – the notion of shutting down LGF. As noted, I’m not in the business of shutting down other blogs, and I have no interest in seeing my blog used for that.
If you were responding to the poster who suggested the shutdown, please accept my apologies, but I don’t even want the topic raised here.
A.L.
I think that LGF provides a useful outlet in the blog community for exploring the true depths of depravity in the Islamic world, without having to put any fig leaf of political correctness over it. The Islamists consider us to be their enemy, and they wish to destroy us. There is no good use in trying to soft-pedal that message. You cannot figure out how to deal with a situation honestly until you honestly know what the problem is.
Having said that, I heartily disagree that Charles only shows us the depraved side of Islam and the Arab world. I have personally come across many hopeful posts, indicating signs of sanity and moderation in the Arab and Islamic world.
The problem that many posters here seem to have is indicative of a general symptom among modern Americans — people are no longer comfortable with concepts like “enemy.” People tend to believe (or hope?) that if they could only try hard enough to understand why others hate them, then they might be able to talk things out and everything will eventually be okay. Unfortunately, this is a distinctly Western mindset that has no basis in reality.
This is A.L. I’m pulling posts that suggest – or respond to – the notion of shutting down LGF. As noted, I’m not in the business of shutting down other blogs, and I have no interest in seeing my blog used for that.
If you were responding to the poster who suggested the shutdown, please accept my apologies, but I don;t even want the topic raised here.
A.L.
[What Tony abu Tuz said-especially “Do you actually care about the well-being of Arabs? or only about venting your hostility towards America?” and “By the way, LGF has at least 4 arab regulars.”]
On LGF, there is peace between Arabs and Jews! Isn’t that something?
Or do we Arabs’ opinions not count unless we hate America and hate Jews?
Auston wrote:
“Does LGF in any way shape or form say that it is attempting to give a description of all of Islam? ”
YES – THAT’S THE WHOLE POINT
every time it posts a story about what one person did and then says “Religion of peace does X”
Like recently there was some story about some guy somewhere who didn’t like his wife’s hair so he scalped her or stabbed her in the head or something. So charles puts up a headline saying something like:
RELIGION OF SCALPING WOMEN!
by the by… the so-called “house” was a cover for a smuggling tunnel where weapons, bombs, guns, hookers and drugs were regularly smuggled….
OF COURSE, this wasn’t how it was portrayed in the media.
Hey, Pinheads!
The goal of Islam is to rule the entire world with Sharia law.
So are you looking forward to your new masters?
I read LGF all the time and it is far more accurate and truthful than what I would get at CNN or NBC or CBS. The comments are also worthwhile because they provide additional links and of topic links to other current events that might or might not get a headline on LGF or any other blogs.
Oh, and if you Muslim ‘friends’ deny it then they are just pulling your leg and you are falling for it… If they meant it they would speak out against the fanatics… But they do not! Instead they collect money for Hamas
What about Islam’s intentions towards the America and the West that you folks don’t understand is beyond me.
All I hear in all this palavering about the supposed racism on LGF are frightened people who can not face the reality of this age. Charles and those who post there can.
I’m not wasting my time digging through your archives but I wonder if you have ever dissected the rabid hatred for America on Indy sites. Or perhaps their rhetoric is more appealing. I don’t really care – racism is such a bogus charge to start with, unless you want to point out exactly which ‘race’ is Muslim.
CAIR does a fine job defending Islam, perhaps a contribution to them would satisfy your sense of the proper way to deal with terror – a bit more delicate for those who wish to walk to their deaths with blinders on.
Because the bottom line is that any more of this PC applied to dealing with this war will kill us all.
Yes, boys and girls. We are in a war and the enemy is Islam.
There is no racism on LGF.
Period.
Get over it. Those who can’t, just go back to sleep.
You serve no purpose in my world, that’s for damn sure.
so “LGF is hateful” since you took my bait and answered my post …where is your denounciation of terrorims and militant islam?
Where is your stance for that woman? or do you just dont care???????
Austin
Ah yes, “we’re really not hateful- just the occasional dupe.”
Sure. Count the nasty degrading things written in response to *this post*. Not exactly a lone racist being “yelled-down” or better yet, banned. In fact, it’s almost like they’re competing to see who can make the most light out of murder and rape.
Classy joint you run there, Charles.
This is A.L. I’m pulling posts that suggest – or respond to – the notion of shutting down LGF. As noted, I’m not in the business of shutting down other blogs, and I have no interest in seeing my blog used for that.
If you were responding to the poster who suggested the shutdown, please accept my apologies, but I don;t even want the topic raised here.
A.L.
Ummm LGF is Hateful. . .
Did the individual in question scalp his wife for any other reason? NO. It was because this sort of treatment of women is acceptable in Islam. For many years before the U.S. became involved in Afghanistan, cries went up about the cruelty shown women by the Taliban, an Islamist regime. Not Christian, Buddhist, Jewish or Hindu but Islamist.
You may not like it but it is representative of the fate of women under Sharia law.
“Please help Shut down funding for Hate-Site LGF”
Posted by: LGF is hateful on April 7, 2004 04:42 AM
Does facism fit you? Thought so….
“they meant it they would speak out against the fanatics”
I know quite a few Muslims, considering I’m over in Malaysia a lot (ya, some guy in a black Suburban seems to follow me a lot here in the USA [wink]). Most of these Muslims are silent on the issue of Jihad. They don’t praise it. They don’t condem it. Just silence.
“He also won’t ban some of the longest-running trolls (I’ll be kind: persistent contrarians) such as Gordon, DU Jimbo and BPP. view from Ireland lasted over two years before he had to ban her for only derailing threads, never contributing anything. That’s remarkable tolerance.
I wonder how long the Republican versions of those four would last on Democratic Underground.”
DU Jimbo is not a troll. He only trolls over at Democraticunderground where he posts under the name JimSagle. He has managed 3500 posts over at DU without being banned. Pretty good job considering he’s only over there to disrupt. Jim is a true Lizardoid. Do not speak ill of him.
jheka
Holy crap this thread is moving.
I too have met Charles personally and know him to be a very gentle, soft-spoken and thoughtful individual.
LGF is, ultimately, a ‘linker’ site. Charles does not write essays saying “These Islamists are savages.” He links to endless scenes of Islamic savagery, from on-site reports and pictures, and says “These Islamists are savages — and here is WHAT THEY SAY and here are some pictures of WHAT THEY DO.” This is not Charles’ OPINION. It is journalistic EVIDENCE.
How is this racist, exactly? And just out of curiousity, does the left have any ideas remaining, besides screaming RACIST!
Any?
And as far as some of the more extreme comments go, perhaps you might want to take that up WITH THE PEOPLE WHO WROTE THEM.
Just a thought.
A few of the regulars at LGF are garden-variety nativists or racists, but Charles tends to ban them. The real question here is what A.L. has been getting at: what do you think the terrorist threat is, and what is its extent? Your answer to that probably determines your opinion of LGF.
That said, read LGF before you answer that question, and leave your ears open to what you don’t want to hear. Then go read the CAIR homepage and do the same. Judge them on their merits and their truths.
Senior Administration Official:
LGF is exposing the brutality and horror of Arab culture and regimes, as shown in the example you link to. That’s racist?!?!?! Thank god someone like charles is showing these horrors, unlike people like you who remain silent.
Speaking out against the evils of arab culture is moral. glossing over them is racist.
see also my earlier comments.
Jheka-Oh, oops 🙂
Comments areas such as this one and that at LGF are 1) valuable and 2) certain to attract objectionable posts. Melanie Phillips, one of my favorite bloggers (if you haven’t read her, you should), wrote this on Feb. 16: “After considerable thought, I have now reluctantly disabled all readers’ comments on this site. Despite my having recently restricted them to a seven-day period to make them more manageable, the popularity of this site — for which I am legally responsible — means that I simply do not have the time to ensure that nothing creeps onto it that is libellous or otherwise unlawful. I am sorry to deprive readers of this facility, from which I myself have learned much of interest, and I may therefore review this decision in the future.” Charles faces the same question and answers it differently. Neither Charles nor Ms. Phillips can be faulted for their respective decisions. The comments area of a popular blog will receive more responses than can be policed, and it’s inevitable that some of those comments will be indecent. Holding the blogger culpable is foolish at best. Consider this Winds of Change post. Are the proprietors responsible for the comments that you find unacceptable? Absolutely not. The subject of this post is highly charged, and bound to provoke attentive readers. The same goes for just about everything on LGF. Stop blaming Charles.
LGF is hateful –
What in the heck do you think will happen when Sharia is accepted as apart of the law in Canada (which might happen) or in the US. Are you willing to kiss away the rights of women and babies for the sake of making the world a Caliphistic State ruled by the Sharia. Sure it might be an exaggeration now! But look at what the Taliban did in Afghanistan! They destroyed historical relics without any thought! They forced women into slavery. LGF is pointing out that this is what happens when people are RULED under the Religion of Peace…it is not a religion of peace it is a religion of cruelty and barbarism. What kind of religion promotes the use of kids as suicide bombers? Women as suicide bombers? Of bombing trailway cars and railroad stations? Do you think the terrorists will stop bombing in Spain once Spain pulls out its troops? Or do you think it will continue til Spain completely capitulates into Al-Andulus (sp.). This one article (and there are many) show the path of what will happen when the Sharia is encoded into law. And I must say its interesting that you failed to note that that person (and I use the term loosely) will only get a MAXIMUM SENTENCE of 3 years in Malasyia, do you call that Justice?
Hey Dan; this is moving somewhat slowly by LGF standards. But hey! SAO wants a policing of all comments on all threads to maintain a certain P.C. standard.
BTW SAO, would you be the arbiter of what is good and true? P.C. is slavery. Life is offensive. Nobody has the right to NOT be offended. I don’t go out of my way to offend people but I’ll be d*mn*d if I’ll have somebody tell me what to say as to not would some nitwits delicate sensibilities.
wow.
pass the popcorn.
Senior Administrative Official says: See how long it takes your PC comment to get deleted vs. the a bile-filled comment.
Bullshit. Just plain bullshit.
I tangled with a few of the “worst” LGF denizens (see, e.g. this exchange with “Caton”) and lived to tell about it. And not get banned or deleted.
What’s frightening about LGF is not that when you challenge them on their (admittedly) hard core outlook that they shout you down. OK, if you’re a hardcore idiotarian, sure they will – as will WoC. (Tony Foresta, anyone? Jean Bart?) No, the frightening thing is that they respond with sufficient erudition and historical perspective that you really start re-examining your own convictions.
Charles, face it, LGF is populated with some really self indulgent comment posters. “Haters” isn’t really too strong a word.
But in defense of the “worst” of them – Caton, bigel, et al – to claim some sort of moral equivalence (“we’re sposed to be the good guys”) with the haters on the left or the islamists is just crap. The latter espouse and apologize for terror. The former respond to terror in self defense. They espouse excessive measures and they take a distasteful pleasure in the destruction of enemies – but to equate their feelings with the agrgessive hate our real, declared enemies is completely unfair.
I would like to stand up for Charles Johnson. I am a regular poster at LGF, and I disagree with Charles nearly constantly, and he has NEVER banned me or deleted my post. A lot of what you criticize at LGF is simple “shout at the devil”. I for one am glad that Charles is the watch-dragon of the blog’verse.
I love WoC, and read it everyday, ditto Instapundit and Amritas. But I read Charles first.
Gabriel, you would have enjoyed the thread Charles hosted with Micheal Ledeen the other day, where LGFers participated in a discussion of meme transmission and cultural genetics in Islam.
I haven’t seen any other blog in the blog’verse with the passion and energy of LGF, and I find myself resentful of your unsubstantiated generalizations. Gratitude, A.L., for letting me speak my piece. A vrai dire, Charles even tolerates my bad french.
I am an avid LGF poster and reader and, while some of the regulars are real troglodytes, Charlie is doing the world of truth a favor. Beleive me I’ve been panned as an LLL a number of times when I called for some restraint from our side. Nowhere else in the media has anyone been relentless as he in turning over rocks to display the seamier side of Arab and Islam culture to the rest of the world. Between namby pamby political correctism and nihilistic, anti-Jew and America mentality of professional leftist scumbags, Muslims and Arabs seem to get a pass on their barbarism and cruelty by the same puffed up fascist hypocrites who are the first to denounce Israel or Bush for failing to bow correctly. Face it, the Arab/Muslim neanderthal killers have replaced the Black Panthers and the Viet Cong in the intellectual elites pantheon of murderous third world fascists who will bring off the revolution that they are too scared to start. So 1 Charlie is needed to counterbalance a 1000 Zuniga/Chomsky/Queers for Palestine/Cockburn braindead fifth columnists. He has his work cut out for him, and it aint easy!
Evariste, you tell em!
Its understood that there are many varied religious, and ethnic backgrounds from all over the world that read and comment at lgf….
There is a real hatred and virus in the Islamic world and it dominates it and can not be questioned due to the lack of democracy there. The internet is the only option for the true moderates there and in Iran and ironically many of them comment and are linked at places like the Buzz Machine (He has a collection of links to all the foreign blogs), Roger Simon, Charle’s lgf which is the main site and others…
When far lefty loons try to portray a site or idea they don’t like they need to fit it into their bottle fed propaganda they’ve read at places like WRH, Indymedia and from ANSWER meetings…. which is its the Western White Imperialist, Walthy, Capitalist, Neo-Con Racists oppressing the Poor, Darker, Left Wing Good guys of the world.
Therefore Charles’s site must be a White hate Neo-Nazi site…
Of course anyone with a fing brain in their head knows that Neo-nazis would never set foot at Charle’s site… its not a friendly place to tout their top 2 groups for hatred blacks and Jews…. they spend all their time linking up with their friends in the Islamic and Left Wing sites…
And Charles just linked how Quatar and Bahrain recently had their favorite Neo-Nazi speaker in town for a conference on the evil Jew worldwide conspiracy.. Mr. Baker..
NUFF SAID….
Gabriel you got torched by Charles for what you said…. And its amazing to me and probably you as well!! that he actually remembered it….
Mike
Try posting even a mild critiscm of Israel on this Fascist LGF site and you are off, permanent.
No balance whatsoever.
Site reserved for knuckle dragging anti Muslim bigots.
Ed.
LGF is great and Charles Johnson works very hard at publishing information that is overlooked by the mainstream media.
If reports on Al-Qaeda, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other fascist Jihadis make you uncomfortable, that’s your problem.
Many in the PC crowd are so afraid of being intolerant that they become tolerant of intolerance (in this case, racist, mass murdering Islamic intolerance).
Charles never posted anything hateful and he’s not responsible for anything users post on his site. Here’s for example my policy on FactsOfIsrael.com regarding comments:
“Comments are open and unmoderated, although obscene or abusive remarks may be deleted. Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of FactsOfIsrael.com. See the Terms of Use for more details.”
This means that although users can post whatever they want – the comment will probably get deleted if they are calling for the murder of Jews, Muslims or anyone else (most of the hateful comments come from Muslims and European leftists).
As my site grew I found it increasingly difficult to manage all of the comments and eventually I had to write some special code to access the comments table directly in the database.
FactsOfIsrael.com doesn’t get a fraction of the traffic that LGF gets – so imagine how much work Charles Johnson has to find and delete hateful comments.
LGF is one of the most valuable sites you can find for seeing what is happening in the Arab/Muslim world as it intersects with our civilization. Many of the posters on LGF are having fun ranting. A few are over the edge, but most are normal people with interesting points of view.
The regular media has been much too lazy. Most news sources insulate people against the dangers of the rapid spread of Wahhabism. Charles Johnson’s blog has been invaluable in waking many of us up to the genuine dangers that threaten us.
Some of the people commenting here who don’t like LGF are really saying that they don’t want to learn about what’s going on. Why heap such scorn on a good site? LGF has its own unique characteristics. There are plenty of sites run by people who think that if they say nice things about Muslims, then the problems will all go away. Sorry, folks, they won’t. So look straight at the dangers and then form your opinions.
“Gabriel Gonzalez”, you say:
There are two main issues at LGF: (i) throwing the red meat (the posts themselves) and (ii) driving the crowd in the back in a particularly (hateful) direction.
This is complete nonsense.
What you call “throwing the red meat” is simply accurate reporting of the constant stream of horrors that Islam is caught up in.
Charles does not “[drive] the crowd in the back” in any particular direction. He does sometimes join in the comments, for example to remark on the inanity of Air America Radio. He does not promote anger – it is the acts of the Islamic extremists that do that.
Now, there are some posters – bigel and Camel Prophet are the same two that I have in mind – that I would personally ban if LGF were my site. But the vast majority of the commenters are reasonable people, and the vast majority of the comments are likewise reasonable.
LGF is no hate site. But emotions run high there because the subject matter is indeed hateful. Charles Johnson does us all a huge service by seeing that these events are not buried and forgotten.
SAO – why would you even want to post a PC comment? What value could a PC comment possibly have in such a discussion? (Or any discussion?)
Try posting an informative comment or an insightful comment rather than a PC one, and I think you will be received much more warmly.
No one I know, including myself, primarily goes to LGF for the comments. It’s for the posts. Does Charles make them up? No. Are those stories wrong, do they skew the Arab street’s image, are they generalizations to paint a racist picture? Only if the sources that Charles links to are. Does he carefully select sources to shape the discussion on radical Islam? Of course he does. Every news outlet does that.
Charles does have a personal agenda. Period. What amazes me is that quite a few people in here demand that Charles put aside his own agenda and … and what? Only give double-checked facts about the Arab street? Give no facts about the Arab street anymore, shutdown LGF? Find other facts about the Arab street that paint it in a more favorable shade?
So, there you are, problem solved. Ignore LGF, start your own anti-lgf.com, and post all the wonderful stories about Islam’s capabilities for tolerance, the wisdom of the Arab street, the vivid reform process from Cairo to Teheran, Muslims and Jews happily celebrating together.
Oh, I hear them complaining already. “You’re putting up your own strawman.”, “They need more time to evolve.”, “You can’t judge the Arab street by your own standards.” And that exactly is the point. You do not want Charles to paint a different picture of the Arab street. You want him not to post any news about the Arab street at all. “The Arab street is sick, she needs rest.” Case closed, move on, there’s nothing to see here.
And that exactly is what we had in the last decades. And I say, no, keep the spotlight on, fully focussed on the target. Let’s hear those stories that get filtered by our media. For that is the very reason why people visit LGF. Yes, it may be painful, and sometimes disgusting, and some might call it hate-speech. But we do need that reporting.
Anyone is welcome at LGF, to DISCUSS anything.
Barge in the door calling us Nazis, or with any of the dozens of cut-and-pasted Left Talking Points, and you’ll get the treatment your non-thinking idiocy deserves.
Show up with the repeated-ad-nauseum ‘I just happened upon your site and in 30 seconds deduced you are wingnuts’, and you’ll be mocked mercilessly for a trite Idiot.
If you can participate in a give-and-take rational discussion on the topic at hand, or even sustain your own position beyond the first layer of canned response, you’ll be given respect.
Use the usual lazy unthinking charges of ‘racists!’ or ‘nazis!’ or ‘circle-jerk’ when pressed to defend your points with logic and real-world factual substantiation, and you will indeed be mocked and derided.
Likewise, come to deliberately spar while answering none of the questions or points made to you, or by refusing to make any declarative points of your own, and again, you’ll be scorned and tossed out.
And for the human waves of Idiots that still don’t get it – the LGF community is multi-national, gender balanced, racially mixed, and contains a wide range of political affiliations, including Democrats, former (pre 9/11) Democrats, Independents, and yes Dorothy, Republicans. The thing almost all of them have in common is some strong Jacksonian tendencies, and a strong addiction to factual information.
You’ll find us primarily focused on the global threat and activities of Radical Islamic jihadists, the WoT, and everything related to Israel.
If you cannot discuss any of those three withOUT foaming at the mouth and making baseless / grossly inaccurate accusations at us, don’t bother coming over.
We ravenously devour information from ALL sources on the Internet, be they bloggers, big and little media.
You’ll most often find news stories linked directly from AP or Reuters, though usually with scorn for their atrocious PC / Pro-muslim / anti-Israel bias.
The Guardian, Beeb, ABC, CBS, WaPo, Times are quoted / linked AT LEAST as often as Newsmax or the Wash Times.
Again, if you think ALL of those are anti-Left, don’t bother coming over.
Lastly, on the subject of bannings – unlike most of the blogs / forums on the Left, LGF / Charles does NOT ban dissenting viewpoints. The people that get banned are the folks that solely post tripe like “Fucking JEWS! / Nazis! / Racists!”; that come to play self-referential games with multiple mutually-supporting Nics coming from the same IP; that show the comportment, reasoning skills, or manners of a cranky 3-year-old. The last category are those that ONLY ever post personal attacks or non-constructive criticims of the forum, particular members, or the operator.
Leave the Projection behind, and come on over to a place where you really will be challenged – and if you are capable – learn additional information and viewpoints on many topics.
Everybody is welcome, if they can support and defend their viewpoints with historically factual information, and are able to sustain an exchange beyond the opening slogan.
Ed-
Are you speaking from experience? Or are you just making this up as you go along?
Thank God for Charles and LGF! One of the few place in America left were one can speak their mind without having to worry if someone is offended. If you are offended (and I have been on both sides of that at times), you are allowed to confront the offender with logic and facts. The posters on LGF are some of the most intelligent and thoughtful posters I have seen. It is refreshing to find an outlet where one can enjoy such lively exchanges.
Ed.
Pray tell what “mild” criticism did you post that got you banned? Something along the lines of comparing Israel to Nazis? Or their defence against terrorist thugs as naked agression against the poor, oppressed “Palestinians”?
I’ve seen the kind of Israeli critical remarks that lead to bans. Probably very similar to those of Gabriel Gonzalez.
By the way, “LGF is Hateful” has an e-mail address of “none@hotmail.com”
This is exactly the kind of sniper in the basement courage that so many of the tryly moonbat fringe seems to have devolved into.
Charles Johnson has the courage to post under his own name, and to suffer potential lunatics at his door. That is called having the courage of your convictions, which is more than can be said for craven cowards like LGF IS HATEFUL, who wish to silence other people when he lacks the fundamental courage to sign his name to what he claims to believe.
Miserable. Pathetic. Loser.
(Hey, it’s a Rachel Lucas flashback! Just another person with the guts to leave a valid e-mail address)
twisterella,
Aaaarrrgghhh!!! French!!! Stop that.
LGF bothers to tell the truth.
What the others don’t want us to see.
I like being informed.
Obviously there are people out there who like being kept in the dark.
Muslim extremism is all over the world now.
Time to stop it.
You can lull yourself into complacency and pretend that radical Islam hasn’t declared war on the civilized world, but that won’t make the war go away.
Tolerating Intolerance: The Challenge of Fundamentalist Islam in Western Europe
‘nuf said.
Charles ,is by far, the most fair person one could read. I notice no one has ever gave ONE EXAMPLE of Charles distorting what Islam or Muslims are. ALL I hear about, is what LGF comments are compared to “Kos actual comments. The LLL has reached new lows for a “debate”!
Muke Necca.
Assasinate Arafish.
Blow me, Saint Pancake.
Sue me, LLL!
I’ve been looking at LGF for a short while now, and have a few observations:
1. It is remarkable how the core concepts that define the site resonate with my own take on the crisis in the Middle East. I’ve been listening very, very carefully to what’s going on there for many years now, and have spent lots of time in the area. The posts at LGF (not the comments, mind you) exhibit a really nuanced understanding of the cultural dynamics. My understanding of what a sham the Palestinian cause is came from personal experience and is best summarized by the television program Frontline that deals with the second intafada.
2. I consider myself a person that has no patience for dogmatic obedience to the increasingly absurd culture of tolerance. (Note: that is something different than being intolerant.) For example, if you tell me that you are “transgender” and that I should stop referring to you as “he” or “she”, I will laugh in your face and rant at you about the perils of negligent parenting. On the other hand, if I see your transgender butt getting kicked by skinheads, I’ll step in and save you at the risk of my own hide. Is this getting through? I’m not being very clear, but hopefully you understand something about the detente of my cultural sentivities. I see Charles lining up in somewhere near the same spot on that dial, and that’s rare, and it pleases me to have an ally. If you take your rose-colored glasses off, you might even see what is quite brave about Charles’ position.
3. The worst thing about LGF is the commentary. Every blog eventually collapses into trolldom. I’ve seen it happed so many times in so many ways. Keeping meaningful discussion afloat is tough to do. The comments as LGF are generally inane, with notable exceptions. There are many people there who feel the need to confirm their approval of other people’s opinions. I suspect it’s a symptom of their fear of being original, which is ironic and unfortunate, since it diminishes the unconventional nature of the site’s core premises. My personal theory is that Charles, being something of a pragmatist, attracts personalities that value action over reflection, and the result is a lot of back-patting, agreement, amplification, reductionism and a tendency toward pre-game pep-talking.
Have I lost the plot? I’m being quite sincere, even if I’m too tired to articulate this point.
but religion and politics are not the same
*******************************************
Islam does not distinguish between religion
and politics. Much in the same manner that
the Catholic Iquisition did the same.
When the final arbitrator of all Law is God?
There can be no separation of Church and State
they are congruent.
PS 1.3 Billion can so be brainwashed to one
mode of thought, all it takes is enough time
left unopposed.
Hey Armed Liberal
Thanks for letting us have a say here. I appreciate your graciousness.
EA your comment is complete bullshit.
You can criticize Israel and will not be banned unless you say something hate filled.
However, if you bring your bag you better have your shit down because there are many commenters there than know their shit and Charles has openly endorsed an eventual 2 state solution.
The problem is giving a state to the present political atmosphere there and leaders would lead to exponentially more deaths on both sides… and that’s the point anyone who wants to read what is actually said on the Pal side realizes.
Mike
My experience is that people who don’t use a real e-mail address are ashamed of themselves and their views.
“Oh, but some of them can. We should show political support for them. To engage “the other half”, point out how much worse off, materially, states are that do mix religion and politics are.”
I’d say that Charles does exactly that. LGF provides as balanced a view of Middle East events and opinions as one is likely to find from a source that produces the volume that Charles produces. This is not to say that there are an equal number of pro and con posts regarding Muslims/Arabs and their cultural structures, because there are not. This is more a product of the material than of the reporter.
LGF frequently runs stories on voices of moderation and modernity in the ME. It also runs considerably more stories on voices of hate, racism, treachery, blatantly false and inflammatory propaganda and calls to violence, many of which emanate from mosques and from political leadership.
Unfortunately, Charles’ reporting is a reflection of reality. If it seems unbalanced, it’s because the subject matter is unbalanced. Along with everyone else here, I wish this were not the case. But, it seems to be. Ignoring it will solve nothing, nor will criticizing Charles for reporting on it. Turning a blind eye is simply not helpful.
His commentary is largely restricted to his posts, and his participation in the comments section is minimal and usually administrative in nature. He does editorialize, and this will obviously be flavored by his worldview. It would seem that this privilege is part of the point of having a blog to begin with. If the commenters here agree that Charles is no racist, then the criticism lies solely with his management of the comments section. If that’s the case, I’d recommend to those who disagree with Charles’ largely hands-off style that you simply not enter the comments sections.
“I think that the good thing about our side is that we’re willing to accept the humanity of everyone – including our enemies, which is why we grieve, not cheer, at the picture on Nathan’s site. When we stop doing that – as Kos did, and as many of Charles’ commenters do, we erode our own standing.”
I can only respond to this, I’ll leave alone any silly DU flameouts.
“we’re willing to accept the humanity of everyone – including our enemies, which is why we grieve, not cheer,”
So you were not happy with the rocketing death of the hamas spiritual leader ? You grieved his death? You grive the deaths of suicide bombers ? You grieve for Mohammed Atta too ? etc, etc, etc.
Bunch of you lightweight metrosexual types need to grow a damn nut or two. When a crazed animal storms into my house and attacks me or my family, I kill it. And I am happy to see it dead.
There are the happy nesters and there are those who build the nests. Hunker down if the demands of being this grotesque human being animal repulses you. I heard it takes as much courage to cower as it does to stand and defend yourself. You decide where to place your energies and I will mine.
LGF FOREVER !!!
justdanny
So I see that what we have here on a website I formerly had a great deal of respect for is a free-for-all bashing of Charles Johnson’s stellar Little Green Footballs, and most of the comments here seem to be from formerly banned posters from Indymedia and friends of Kos. Well, that they would want to bash LGF is no surprise but that Winds of Change would offer itself as the vehicle for this little hate-fest is surprising; surprising and disappointing.
As long as I’m here let me say this about LGF. It is a forum for the free-wheeling, uninhibited discussion of subjects which are off-limits in other venues as being ‘hate speech’; i.e the discussion of Muslim hate speech against the “kufhr” or “kaffir”. And I would add that any visit to Indymedia would teach a visitor the true meaning of hate speech and racism.
This has all blown up out of Kos’ nasty little posting on his Liberal blog “DailyKos” that he felt nothing about the “mercenaries'” deaths in Fallujah and his sneering remarks about their presence in Iraq. The US military, having cut its forces to the bone to be lean and mean, no longer provides personnel to guard food shipments to their various bases to supply the troops, or for equipment en route. Those things are now guarded (and they must be guarded, they can’t be shipped without a guard and be expected to arrive due to robbers and thieves roaming the country), and the job of guarding these various shipments falls to outside companies who are paid to provide competent people trained and willing to go into dangerous territory. A sort of armed “meals on wheels” for the troops. But these are people of courage putting their lives on the line to deliver a service and they deserve respect every bit as much as the troops do.
It was the MANNER of their deaths which drew the world’s attention, not that they deserved attention more than the troops. Yes, five troops did die that day but they weren’t burned alive, then drawn and quartered and practically crucified and hung from a bridge over the Tigris River. These four people’s bodies were treated that way and that’s why the world and LGF drew a collective breathe in horror and when that small-minded, over-achiever, Kos, chose to put his sneering spin on the manner of their deaths and then compound the error with a mealy-mouthed spin of an apology in which everything was about him and how he grew up and we should understand him, he quite rightly drew the wrath of the LGF lizardoid minions. They danced and capered all over every weaselly word and so they should have. The dead whom Kos had maligned had no one else to defend them.
But in all that was written about what Kos said, not one word–NOT ONE–mentioned his race, his gender, his colour (if he has one) or any personal detail. It was all about his shallow perspective on the deaths of some noble and brave young people who, though earning a salary to do the job, nevertheless lost their lives in a very grisly manner while doing it–and there will be no medals for them for guarding the chuck wagon, so to speak.
LGFers are proud of telling it like it is and dropping all the politically correct “nice-niceness” but the only ones who get banned are those who go over that line and use ad hominem attacks or make racist comments. If you stick to the issue there’ll be no problem but slop over into racism, visciousness or ranting with the caps locked and you’ll be cruising for a bruising and get banned.
I’m proud to be an LGFer of long standing and you can look at all my posts under my current nom de plume above or my former incarnation as “Elizabeth” and in none of them will you find swearing or viscious personal attacks. But I can be very pithy and bald on occasion and totally drop the nice-nice attitude in order to make my point. That and a dash of humour is the essence of LGF and I’m proud to be a member of several years’ standing. It’s also the ethic which makes people want to check in every day for their daily dose of the TRUTH without P.C. frills.
Everyone: read Internet Haganah.
There are many sites more hateful than LGF on the internet that need policing. That is, sites that advocate and organize the murder of individuals based on their race, religion or nationality. Why are people wasting their time here, arguing for censorship at a site that frequently, if not perfectly, encourages discourse at a fairly high level. It is shameful and infuriating.
This is why we need LGF.
I posted this comment on Roger L Simons post about Orianna Fallaci and I am a rabid LGF fan. I dont believe it is racist to call a religion what it is…and Islam until it finds a center is an immoderate mess. Sorry if that offends some of you. LGF provides a service and instead of me being worried about offending muslims let them be worried about offending me. Let Victor Davis Hanson say it…
===========================================
Quite simply, any society in which citizens owe their allegiance to the tribe rather than the nation, do not believe in democracy enough to institute it, shun female intellectual contributions, allow polygamy, insist on patriarchy, institutionalize religious persecution, ignore family planning, expect endemic corruption, tolerate honor killings, see no need to vote, and define knowledge as mastery of the Koran is deeply pathological.
==========================================
And my post on Roger L Simons site is to the point that I believe many of you forget. We are at war.
Do you feel like you are in a war? Do you feel fear? Why not? If you are a frog in a pot do you feel the water getting hotter? Comment (0) | Trackback (0)
A comment I left in response to a typically interesting post by Roge L Simon. Does This Lady Have a Bodyguard?
Im not so sure that even the US should escape the wrath of Oriana. We are at war. A group of maniacs came into our country and murdered us with no warning in numbers unthinkable to civilized societies not at war. In our greatest city, those maniacs who slit the throats of innocents ran jets full of fuel, mothers, fathers and innocent children into buildings full of other innocents, murdering 3,000 of us in one 3-hour period.
Do you feel like you are at war right now? No one, not the British nor the Germans nor the Russians managed to kill 3,000 of us in our greatest city and the surrounds. Did I state that plainly enough? Our greatest enemies never managed to kill that many of our citizens at any point in any city much less our greatest. The murderous tyrant and favorite enemy of the left Hitler never managed it, the far grander thug, murderer, and enemy of the right Stalin never managed it, and yet it happened. The people who made it happen might be the worst enemy we have ever faced, I happen to believe them much worse but qualify it since I remain open to argument on that point. Do you feel like we are at war? I feel like I’m sharing a pot with a bunch of other frogs and the water is getting hotter so gradually that soon I will be cooked and that will be that.
So again here we are at war with a group of people that have so far managed to kill more of us than any other mass-murdering thug ever managed, do you feel fear? Exactly how do we fight a war when none of us feels like we are in a war? At what point do we wake up and realize that all of our platitudes of equality of religion and tolerance have been turned against us in a manner that would make any follower of Sun Tzu proud. Why shouldn’t you feel fear hasn’t the enemy already declared his religious desire to kill thousands if not millions more of us? Should we not take him at his word? Do you feel fear? Neither do I, why not? I don’t know why I don’t but I do realize at times late at night that it’s not rational to not feel fear about this war. In the daytime it seems unseemly to display fear, it feels unseemly to write these words. Yet 3,000 of us died. More are promised violent terrible deaths. Do we ignore these threats? This is a very confusing war.
George Bush has my deepest sympathy. At times in my late night sessions of cowardice I wonder if I would not just throw my hands up and quit were I in his position. Constantly attacked and vilified while trying to wake up a nation to a war. However, his hands are not clean. In trying to minimize the economic affects, didn’t he tell us to go back to our regular lives? Did he expect us to remember that we are at war? Is there such a thing as ADD for a nation? What sort of pills does a nation take to remember we are at war? Maybe it would have been better for him to call the entire nation to arms, instead of just calling to the military in that brilliant September 20, 2001 speech, perhaps he should have called on the nation to be prepared to answer the call. I do not know, I am not that clever, all I know is it does not feel like war around my city. But in my heart of hearts I know we are in the most desperate war of our lives, the stake of civilization depends on us fighting it, and yet it doesn’t feel like war.
John Kerry will appease the terrorists and declare victory, just like Clinton did.
Pierre
I reluctantly would like to add to the LGF examination.
LGF to me is a powerful wake up call to the Left and Islam. I’ve long enjoyed reading LGF and its commenters since the 9/11 terrorist attack. It was very addictive for awhile – I found many of the posters to be quite intelligent and willing to have a discussion. Unfortunately, what started as sharp criticism of Islam and Liberal politics became hate speech and one dimensional thinking. While I agree with Charles’s zeal on the injustice given to Israel in world politics- he doesn’t show the same enthusiasm for hate against muslims- often posted on LGF, and other minorities, often posted on LGF. Criticism of Bush policies are a no-no on LGF, which doesn’t make much for discussion purposes.
Jheka-
You can probably add me to your list of trolls not banned (yet)
It’s good to see that Charles encouraged the LGF crowd to show everyone how reasonable and well-balanced they are. And to show us the impressions of Islam and the Middle East they’re soaking up from his balanced, well-informed blog.
The overall upshot of this: a whole lot of adolescent breast-beating about “PC,” a little name-calling, a few repetitions of urban myths about a certain dead protester, some “Muslims want to conquer the world” conspiracy theory… and to top it all off, Johnson has what looks to me like an outright lie posted on his blog, claiming that he’s been called a “Nazi” and “white supremacist” here. But it’s okay, the racists over at LGF are just local colour, nobody really pays attention to them. Whew.
Well, I don’t think Johnson is a racist. Based on what I’ve seen here and what I’ve seen in the past, I just think he’s clueless, dishonest, and a liability to serious debate about the Islamic far right that he claims to care about so much. Colour me better-pleased than ever not to be an LGF reader.
I’ve seen the strongest of comments as LGF as being anti-Islamist, not anti-Muslim. There’s a distinction there between the animals who blow up civilians in Israel and the average Muslim working joe. It’s just that LGF is focused on the extremists and the danger they pose.
Nobody’s saying we should ignore radical Islam, or not judge it.
What I am saying is the comments are disgraceful- bordline fascistic- and the posts present a lop-sided view of Islam.
Believe me, I think demonization has its place (try WWII), but we’re not there yet. I could be wrong.
Senior Administration Official
Perhaps you do not understand what the term fascistic means?
Here is a definition from dictionary.com
3 entries found for fascistic.
fas·cist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fshst)
n.
often Fascist An advocate or adherent of fascism.
A reactionary or dictatorial person.
adj.
often Fascist Of, advocating, or practicing fascism.
Fascist Of or relating to the regime of the Fascisti.
I do not see this going on at LGF!
SAO,
as stated above – open your own blog to show us that LGF’s view of Islam is lop-sided. Don’t have time? What a pity.
Now, now Jack Frost
First of all, you are not troll. Definite contrarian and somebody with whom I almost always disagree but no troll.
Bush criticism is fine. But pick your points. Why bother with the straws at which the left seems so fond of grasping when there are legitimate targets? Immigration anybody? AND – given the choice, I reluctantly back Bush. John F’ing Kerry is not a viable choice considering we are engaged in a war which he doesn’t admit is a war.
Care to substantiate that “and other minorities” comment? And since a vast majority of what Charles posts regards the Middle East, how exactly are Muslims a minority?
What good little dhimmis you multicultural liberals are going to make.
Next time a Christian fundamentalist blows up an abortion clinic, I’ll be looking forward to your hand-wringing and “root cause” search.
Boy, I have to say that it’s pretty interesting to watch WoC painted as a leftist, Kos-loving site.
Among other things.
Robert,
I know from experience.
Take up the challenge. Try a criticism of either Sharon (Rumoured here as going to enter Jerusalem next Passover riding on a donkey, thus proclaiming himself to the world as the Messiah) or Israel’s possession of atomic weapons or the tactics of the IDF etc etc and that is your last post. Apologies to any folks out there whose religious sensibilities I’ve offended.
Sometimes I think that Charles is just a front for the IDF.
Ed.
Wow. Joe, look at the post above this one from E.A. Woodman. Is this what you want your blog used for?
“What I am saying is the comments are disgraceful- bordline fascistic- and the posts present a lop-sided view of Islam.”
Posted by: Senior Administration Official on April 7, 2004 05:56 AM
So, are you now saying the first entry was in “error”? We are actually talking about apples and oranges here, SAO. “Kos” comments compared to a blog’s various comments? Shall I go retrieve some various comments from some “Kos articles”?
Charles has nothing to apologize for. He is not a racist or a bigot. LGF been voted as the best blog at Wizbang for a reason. It is a good, informative, truth-seeking weblog and vibrant community of intelligent people.
As for policing the comments section, Charles does a good job. He cannot read 3000 comments a day. He controls only the most egregious violators. The rest of policing is done by his readers.
Ed –
ROFL!!! Actually I posted a comment to LGF about Sharon being in a battle to win a confidence vote in the Kennest that I heard from a friend of mine…I never got banned.
OH and as for your “rumor” about Sharon, which I must say is probably the funniest thing I have heard given how old the man is….Do you happen to have a link? Or did you just make up this “rumor?”
As for the Nukes Israel has, it doesn’t bother me in the least, it serves as a deterrant to the other 8 or 9 neighbors that have repeatedly invaded Israel over the past 60 years.
It’s far past time that we raised the temperature of our rhetoric regards muslim extreemism.
Pussy footing around the issue has only made it worse.
This is not a war on terror.
Terror is no a person, a group, a nation or a movement.
This is a war with Islam, not just the extreemists, but the moderate apologists and faciltators as well.
LGF and Charles are just the leading edge of those of us that have chosen to wise up and see the situation as it really is, a confrontation between modern society and the hateful savagry that is the core of modern Islamic theology.
SAO,as stated above – open your own blog to show us that LGF’s view of Islam is lop-sided.
I’m not arguing LGF should be shut down, and it certainly has its counterparts on the left and elsewhere already. The arguement is between me and Armed Liberal about whether a site that links to LGF can morally condemn Marcos Zuniga.
I don’t think so.
praktike says “Boy, I have to say that it’s pretty interesting to watch WoC painted as a leftist, Kos-loving site.”
The people saying that aren’t familiar with WoC, obviously, or they wouldn’t say that. I wish some people wouldn’t shoot their mouths off before they’re entirely familiar with the ground they’re standing on. That said, a lot of the comments accusing of extreme leftism and such are directed at the lgf detractors in these comments and not at the site itself. I for one love this site (and the comments), and many other lgfers do.
Hey Ed.,
Care to answer my question? What did you say that got you banned? I bet if we asked Charles he could dig it up. Pretty simple task of calling BS on you if you fudge it a bit.
praktike
Here? A couple perhaps. I really don’t know too much about Winds of Change so I won’t pretend to comment on it. I do have it bookmarked for when I can get around to browsing which is rarely. I have no idea what LGFers are saying since I’ve spent my commenting time on this thread alone.
Charles,
You can dish it out but can’t take it can you? That post was tongue in cheek and quite mild to the bigotry from the crapheads on LGF.
Ed.
I personally have seen Charles’ LGF site on several occasions muster enough public feedback and pressure to change the flow of current events. One time, it was a 15-year-old girl in some godforsaken Arab country (I forget exactly *which* godforsaken country right now) being accused of adultry, and sentenced to being flogged. No one in that Shariah-run country had evidently ever heard the word “rape” in connection with a 15 year old expatriate girl having sex. I *know* that after Charles publicized this case on Little Green Footballs, the Shariah court changed its collective pea-brain and merely deported the girl, rather than flogging her to death. I doubt very much that Senior Administration Official could have accomplished the same thing.
One of the other most touching and memorable experiences I have *ever* had either in real life or on the Internet was when Charles spontaneously started a discussion of 9/11 by asking, “Have you lost any friends over the war on terror?” And it turned out that yes, most of the posters on Little Green Footballs believe so *passionately* in the cause of freedom and democracy and what we are doing that we have all lost or cut off both friends and family.
I strongly urge the nay-sayers here who are focusing in on what may be politically incorrect personal rants of people pushed over the edge of politeness – I urge those people to go back to LGF and look up that very very long thread of many many people discussing why they think this country is important, why they are supporting the war on terror, and telling their own individual personal stories of what happened on that day on that September.
And then come back here and dare to post that the people there are hate-filled.
It’s far past time that we raised the temperature of our rhetoric regards muslim extreemism.
Pussy footing around the issue has only made it worse.
Steve, I understand that and we’ve heard it a million times before. There are other ways to go about “waking people up,” though. Why don’t you take a look around Joe’s site?
Ed.
No WAY! That was hate speech. Just like every single comment over on LGF. No? Didn’t think so.
/sarcasm
I just wanted to voice a positive comment in support of Charles and LittleGreenFootballs.
I find the topics and comments from Charles helpful, hopeful and have thanked him on more than one occasion for his site.
I worked for 9 months in and around the Red Zone of Ground Zero and developed a gnawing emotion that I knew was part anger but I could not quite put a name to or try to assuage.
After reading, posting, laughing and crying with some of the posters at LGF since first visiting has helped me to deal with my experiences. I find the Community at LGF to be some of the finest people and friends a person could want. Not to mention well informed (always backing up arguments with facts), intelligent and eloquent.
Thank you Charles and Thank you all at LGF for the Community.
Charles,
You can dish it out but can’t take it can you? That post was tongue in cheek and quite mild compared to the bigotry from the crapheads on LGF.
Ed.
Yes, but that’s what LGF IS to me. It’s where I go to find out what the true Islamist nutballs are up to in the world. Its focus is not on political correctness or providing a “protected” place for PC discussions with no hurt feelings.
LGF’s a great place to see what’s in the press in the Arab world, and to keep informed about political happenings there. I have seen some crude comments there, but I usually take them to be in reference to participants in whatever Islamist atrocity is being discussed at the moment … whether it’s an “honor” killing in Jordan or a car bomb in Jerusalem.
Some people will always make stereotypical and racist generalizations based on race or religion. They are a minority.
Most know who the enemy is … radical Islam, not all Muslims.
The enemy is the funder, the supporter, the advocate and the participant in acts of terror against civilized societies.
He’s the Saudi Royal who supports HAMAS, a Toronto shopkeeper who funnels money to Hizbollah, an imam who uses his power to incite murder, and at the lowest level … the subhuman animals who murder civilians.
That’s what you read about at LGF. It’s looking at radical Islam without the rose-colored glasses of the national media. And the comments reflect that.
Charles does a good job of controlling nuisance posters, like the idiot trolls who spam the boards occasionally … but there’s no way he could read every post for political correctness, even if he wanted to do so.
I believe that Moslems would prefer to live without fear of getting carted off to go through paper shredders. I believe that most of them are probably a lot like me and, if given the opportunity, would be content to putter through life in their house and garden without blowing the shit out of somebody.
I believe that democracy can work in the Arab countries. I want democracy for all the population, not just the male portion of the population.
I believe the Moslem religious leaders are in a deliberate partnership with the dictators in the region for a combination of money and power. Keep ’em stupid and tell them Allah wants it that way. The partnership precludes real education for the populace because then they might develop independent thought and independent action. Being sent through school and only learning the Koran and jihad is NOT cutting it for living and competing in the modern world (but then again, that is the point, isn’t it?) Is it racist to think that Arabs deserve a decent secular education for both sexes, not just the children of the dictators/cronies/”religious” leaders?
I am now in a situation where the religious leaders are calling for me to get killed because I am a Non-Moslem and Westerner, and yet it is somehow racist of me to notice this or read anything about it, but not racist/sexist of them to target me? Is the rationale for this that if it were ignored it would all just go away? As a southern woman, I can overlook/ignore a lot of things out of sheer politeness; i.e. most folks know when they’re being incredibly stupid, you don’t necessarily have to rub their nose in their mistakes. Overlooking the fact that there are practitioners of a religion, some of whom are in my own country and actively working to kill me right now, is not something that I am willing to overlook.
I take the idea of religious leaders of any religion calling on the faithful to kill me (or somebody just like me) rather seriously and would terminate any attempt with extreme prejudice if I saw them coming first. Oddly enough, seems that it is Moslem mullahs calling for my death. Really. The Buddhists appear to be indifferent to me. The Catholics don’t appear to want to end my period of earthly existence. The Amish want me to leave them the hell alone but maybe buy a quilt and some pasture-raised chickens. Knowing what people that want me dead are up to at the moment is pretty important to me.
Since Charles posts some articles (among others) regarding attacks/threats/murders or enslavement of non-Moslems (or different Moslem factions) by Moslem extremists in Spain, France, UK, Netherlands, India, USA, Israel, Australia, Indonesia, the Sudan, Malaysia, Philippines, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, Dubai and others, then Charles is the racist? How is he a racist when he exposes the horrid living conditions/nightmarish worlds inhabited by the oppressed Kurds, Syrians, Iranians, various African countries? (Darn, he had some articles about Afghanistani female policepeople. Racist pig.) Exactly what part about showing pictures of the mass graves, some of which resulted from the way the Kurds and Shi’ites were not supported after GWI because of UN sensitivities is racist?
I suppose I must not understand that word racist very well.
Washing your hands of these people and making excuses for them because “it is their culture” and “life under Saddam was better” sounds pretty darn racist to me.
As the LGF “House Liberal,” (although I’m really not that liberal, certainly not in context of this blog) I can say that Charles does not ban many people. I have posted numerous attacks on the LGF mentality on LGF when I have been saddened/sickened/appalled/nauseated by it. While I have endured serious written abuse from some of the other posters (not being entirely innocent of such tendencies myself), I have also had worthwhile discussions with the majority on the site which opposes my views.
Some of the posters on LGF do put up racist or fascistic bile; but the answer is to call them on it. And Charles allows that without banning people right and left.
LGF has an interesting and valuable perspective on world events, even if I don’t agree with the slant Charles puts on it much of the time.
Charles bans people for being left wing
but he encourages and certainly more than tolerates racism, and often genocidal speech
search for ‘nuke mecca’ on his site – nearly 200 matches
Gordon,
Yes. Too much freedom is far better than not enough. IMHO.
The timing of “LGF is hateful”‘s latest post is priceless!
Thanks, Gordon. That gave me a good laugh.
SAO,as stated above – open your own blog to show us that LGF’s view of Islam is lop-sided.
I’m not arguing LGF should be shut down, and it certainly has its counterparts on the left and elsewhere already. The arguement is between me and Armed Liberal about whether a site that links to LGF can morally condemn Marcos Zuniga.
I don’t think so.
Posted by: Senior Administration Official on April 7, 2004 06:08 AM
So, no one can have an opinion now in your facist-land(except the LLL of course)? Welcome to the Socialist Party Of the United States of Facism….
Idiotmedia Alert!
LGF is hateful,
You’ve never heard of hyperbole? Anger? LGF is a great place to vent when homocide bombers do their thing. At least we just *type* nuke Mecca. They are actually trying to *kill* us. Which is worse?
And isn’t your nick a little case of Pot Kettle Black?
“Nuke Mecca”: 200 matches.
Total # of comments at LGF as of this writing: 648,157
Percentage of comments containing “nuke Mecca”: 0.0003 %.
Gordon,
I am quite sure that Attila the Hun would be regarded as a trendy left wing liberal on LGF and be hounded off the site.
Ed.
E.A. Woodman,
I thought Charles took it pretty well tonight, considering the bile he had to put up with.
And at least 4/5ths of those posts are people complaining about Nuke Mecca posts. By the way, you can now get 6 hits for Nuke Mecca-on this thread alone! And no one’s calling for Mecca to be nuked here.
Instructive.
I guess we now know why LFG is hateful has been banned..or at least cowering and hiding like a troll or coward or
This thread is undergoing serious devolution, I think anyone should be able to see what Charles is about, just by reading the LGF prayer.
A.L., you can borrow my pony anytime! 🙂 Gratitude to you and Joe for allowing this discussion.
Would that so many would take such offense at Palestinian or Arab bigotry.
Lets see, Individual posts news and pictures about atrocities against human life, allows heated commentary denouncing and otherwise condemning the behavior and the people who commit it, sometimes overly expansively.
And you choose to take offense at the people typing, instead of the people blowing themselves up.
I suggest you seek counseling.
First!
(Sorry, wrong blog)
FWIW, several people have made the claim that Charles doesn’t show the sunny side of Islam and its cultural accomplishments. Or something like that.
Well, exactly what would that be? What sunny-side news from the Islamic world are you looking for?
I think some of the news that gets posted is ugly. Some of the poster have very ugly thoughts, and were I 3000 Charles Johnsons, I would find the time and methods to ban them and delete the posts. There are a few persistent bigot who aren’t banned yet. But what do you want – a simon-pure blog that has nothing offensive? What would that accomplish? And how would that be done?
Give the level of comments at DU, I think LGF is a huge success. It – in the main – stays on track. There are persistent trolls who seek to derail threads with pointless comments or well-known irrelevancies, but for the most part, they are ignored by the regulars.
And for the persistent, we roll out Mr. Holland’s Opus. What more could you want?
“Percentage of comments containing “nuke Mecca”: 0.0003 %.”
Posted by: Charles Johnson on April 7, 2004 06:21 AM
OH SHIT! The friggin world is going to end now with all of this hate at LGF!
Next….
Twisterella,
“This thread is undergoing serious devolution … you can borrow my pony anytime!”
Hummm… Self-fulfilling prophecy?
Saying things that in spirit amount to “kill all subhuman arabs” is not “blowing off steam”
How would the average LGF reader react if there was a website that was the flipside of LGF and did nothing but demonize Jews all day long, and threaten to nuke Tel Aviv based on what one person did in a news story ?
If LGF had a thread talking about such a site, the LGF people would go apesh!t and call the Internet Haganah on them and try to get their website shut down, and attack them in any way possible, like you have done to Daily Kos for much less.
And rightly so!
So look in the mirror, LGF people
maybe not every LGF poster is racist or hate-filled but bile-filled hateful rants and demonization is such a central feature
of LGF that it taints the entire thing.
In your zeal to paint LGF with a broad and partisan brush, under the specious pretext of defending Islam, you folks don’t pause for a moment to consider that Muslims suffer first and most under the intolerant, xenophobic, mysoginistic, anti-Semitic, and homophobic faith of Islam. It is the one Abrahamic faith (and I’m an atheist, so I’m not picking favorites) in which literal adherence to scripture is the norm. Picture Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell running the U.S.A. In Islamic states, women are systematically abused and stripped of all dignity, Jews have been expelled or murdered, homosexuals are beheaded, Western society is demonized in textbooks, news is state-run, and apostasy from Islam is punishable by death. This is all in the Qur’an, and the saddest thing is that if a Muslim dares to speak or act against these precepts, he doesn’t stand a chance. These people deserve better.
Don’t you people check out any Iranian student sites? Or the voices of people who have escaped the tyranny of Islamic states? This is not a matter of being P.C. or loyal to ones particular partisan ideology, it’s a matter of the brutal supression of human rights in the name of God.
I’m not registered with any party. I’ve voted Democrat, Green, and Republican in my lifetime, so this isn’t a partisan issue for me. It’s a plain issue of loving freedom, and longing for freedom for all of my human brethren. It seems that many people here are ready to sign up for dhimmitude in the name of not being offensive. Guess what? Islam is offensive. It offended itself all the way out of the Arabian peninsula, across the middle east and northern Africa, and made inroads into Europe through ruthless force of arms and rapine. It’s the most political religion there is, and it’s never been reformed. Charles makes sense, while hard-left and hard-right sites harangue with emotional, insubstantial screeds towing the party line. Dhimmis—that’s what your children will become if you continue to appease Islamofascism.
The great contribution that Charles and LGF make to this war on terror is that Charles doesn’t shy away from the reality that Islam proper is inherently brutal and largely at fault for making the Arab and Pakistani world et al behave in such a brutal fashion.
To ignore the common denominator from Bali to Casablanca is to be a damned fool…….and Islam (not a improper interpretation) but Islam itself motivates people to great evil!
If any of you have actually studied the 1400 year resume of sheer terror inspired by Islam, you wouldn’t be surprised by the many people that post on LGF who are correctly disparaging of Islam.
In addition to that, the greatest exposer of Islam is its own bloody damned teachings….whether in the Quran, Sahih Burkari or Life of Muhammed and other writings that form the Sunnah of Islam.
Muhammed was a man that brutally murdered 800 innocent Jews, bedded a nine year old girl when he was 53, incredibly taught the murder of anyone that leaves Islam, teaches the beating of unsubmissive wives and on and on it goes in the Quran and Sahih Hadiths.
Islam is evil…….pure and simple…….however, and this is where some of the posters get it wrong at times, not every muslim adheres to Orthodox Islam……..Muslims are not a monolith……..many Muslims are indeed moderate or liberal or secular or non practicing……..BUT, the closer one tries to follow Islam literally and exegetically honestly, the greater for evil will one find him/her supporting.
The knowledge of Islam by some of the dimwitted dhimmis is appalling…….Islam will eat you up….they will gladly use idiotic ignorant westerners and our freedoms to strangle us with Islam later down the road……..this is Fact….
Please speak to Ex Muslims the world over and there growing legions to find out what Islam is truly all about……..Western Muslims will always give you a whitewashed version of Islam….the True Islam is the one spouted by Al Hazar or from the Imams of the Grand Mousque in Mecca etc etc……and there messages are pure Hitlerian.
Please visit the brave ex muslims of
http://www.faithfreedom.org
Islam needs to join the dustbin of history along with its cousins Nazism and Marxism…..very little difference….except that Islam is more patient and subtle.
Thanks
BY THE John “Effin” Kerry WAY; (Radical) Islam/Muslims have KILLED more people than LGF. Who/what is the hate site?
How would the average LGF reader react if there was a website that was the flipside of LGF and did nothing but demonize Jews all day long…
There is. It’s called the “mainstream Arab press”.
I’ll echo the other LGF’ers coming here to defend Charles and his blog, but in addition to that I think that it’s also necessary to defend the comments section on LGF.
The comments at LGF have gotten a bad reputation because leftists have deliberately attempted to shut them down, either through sneaky attacks of “hate” posts, plain nasty insults, or just endless repetition. The regulars at LGF, of which I try to keep up with, are people of the highest moral character and judgment, who post knowledgable links and engage in well thought-out discussion and hence are an invaluable service to the blog.
It can be intimidating to read a 350+ comment thread, and one can assume based on rumor that such a thread would have a series of nasty posts in it. That is simply not the case, and instead it typically involves either the well-thought out fisking of a leftist parroting obsolete arguments, or a major discussion on an important news event.
There are certain people who don’t like the truth that LGF exposes, because of their own political agendas, and hence will do anything it takes to smear LGF and the thousands of people who read and comment on it every day. But LGF is not like Democratic Underground, or even like Daily Kos (requiring registration). It’s a free exchange of ideas and Charles bans only the most vicious liars, trolls, and hate-filled people. He has AMAZING tolerance.
If you don’t believe that the Global War on Terror is really a war, then LGF is a thorn in your eye and must be destroyed. But everyone should realize that Charles is perhaps the CONSCIENCE OF THE BLOGOSPHERE, because many other blogs are too tired to deal with these issues daily, or too afraid to bring up the potential consequences.
Charles should be commended for doing what he does, and the regulars on LGF should be proud of the discussion they have.
Wow…feel like I am watching a hockey game.
Likely, I am the Julie Manyata that Charles mentioned above. I’m a native-born American, but my father is Kenyan.
Back in 1998, a whole lot of people who, at one time, looked a lot like me ended up looking a lot like those four Blackwater security guards in Fallujah.
A lot of people who look like me and even more who don’t, ended up the same way in NY, DC and PA in 2001.
And a whole hell of a lot of people who look like me are dying in Sudan because they refuse to convert to Islam.
So you will excuse me if I don’t get in a tizzy about a few knuckle-head posters on Charles’ site. You will excuse me if I applaud Charles in his attempts to expose those who would like nothing better than to barbecue and filet a few more infidel bodies for show.
Saying things that in spirit amount to “kill all subhuman arabs” is not “blowing off steam”
***I am only for killing the RADICAL Muslims, not arabs. Muslims come in all races and ethnic backgrounds.***
How would the average LGF reader react if there was a website that was the flipside of LGF and did nothing but demonize Jews all day long, and threaten to nuke Tel Aviv based on what one person did in a news story ?
***Isn’t that Al-Jezeera? Well, come to think of it,….any Arab media would have that (or worse) in a daily newspaper.***
If LGF had a thread talking about such a site, the LGF people would go apesh!t and call the Internet Haganah on them and try to get their website shut down, and attack them in any way possible, like you have done to Daily Kos for much less.
***HUH?! I haven’t seen much mention of Internet Haganah on LGF, but I do visit them also…***
And rightly so!
So look in the mirror, LGF people
maybe not every LGF poster is racist or hate-filled but bile-filled hateful rants and demonization is such a central feature
of LGF that it taints the entire thing.
***Ever visit Dumb-ass Underground? Daily Kos? Read some of THOSE comments!***
Posted by: LGF is hateful on April 7, 2004 06:28 AM
Charles Johnson
So why do you delete left-wing posts and ban them, but you leave up the most vile racist filth? Clearly you watch your site incredible closely, all day long, and the fact that you choose to leave it up implies your approval.
Maybe you want to attract the type of people who search on google for ‘raghead’ or something along those lines?
And so what if only a small percent of actual comments contain the words “nuke mecca” ?
A more revealing statistic would be what percentage of threads on LGF contain hate speech, racial epithets or calls to violence
And anyone that’s ever read the site knows damn well it would not be 0.0003 %
“There is. It’s called the “mainstream Arab press”.”
And it is much larger, influential and state sponsored.
And so what if only a small percent of actual comments contain the words “nuke mecca” ?
Posted by: LGF is hateful on April 7, 2004 06:38 AM
The mark of a…. LOSER!
To a leftist, the mere posting of a conservative opinion is “hate speech.”
“LGF is hateful” apparrently has appointed himself high commissioner of What People Are Allowed To Say.
What’s the matter? Can’t stand the argument?
If it were mere “hate speech” that this person is concerned with, he’d attack legitimite targets like Democratic Underground, which often calls for the violent deaths of people like John Ashcroft, George Bush, and nearly everyone else in Bush’s cabinet.
LGF posts on important news events, even if one-sided, is not hate speech.
But to the self-appointed policemen of the internet, such distinctions are too fine to make when you’ve got to control the political opinions of the masses.
The only people that I’ve seen banned at LGF were folks that constantly did things like supplied links to gay porn sites or spouted things like: Kill the (choose group of your choice) a. Jews. b. Blacks. c. Gays. d. Whites. e. Christians. f. Americans. g. Other group of your choice, and all in very pejorative language.
Banned because you had a mild dissenting comment? Nah, probably because it was more something like f**k yu nazi jew motherf****** and yur family and dog i hope yu dye. It’s when those posts are coming from alleged “universities” of “higher education” that we get really sad because apparently being literate is no longer a criteria for attending college. Of course, somebody’s 6-year-old child MAY be playing with the computer, but I wouldn’t bet on it. Of course, posting the same dumbass comment about 25 times is also grounds for being banned.
Charles does NOT ban commenters for left wing views. If you feel that he does, I’d recommend going to LGF and engaging in honest, civil debate.
If and when you’re banned, come back here and tell us all what views you were banned for. If you’re vulgar, attempting to derail a thread with arguments you refuse to substantiate, or posting with numerous nics, you probably will get banned, and that can be explained and exposed here.
If you behave reasonably, you run the risk of having your convictions shaken, but not of being banned.
I’m sorry if I missed something, but did Ed quote exactly what he said that got him banned? Did Ed say under what name he posted at LGF?
If he could supply either, we could look it up.
I support Charles 100%. Even donated a little money to his blog.
I comment from time to time over there, and don’t consider myself to be a racist, fascist or white supremacist. Don’t consider guys like Michael Ledeen, James Lileks, or Glenn Reynolds to be racists either — though all three and many other famous names post on LGF. I don’t have to spell out the bona fides of a guy like Michael Ledeen, do I? If Michael Ledeen doesn’t have a problem with LGF, why do you people?
Not only has LGF broken new ground in the blogosphere in terms of shining light on the seamy underbelly of the Arab world and radical Islam, it’s also served as an incubator for talent. People like E.Nough, Glen Wishard, and Iowahawk are among the most talented bloggers and blog commenters out there, and all three used LGF as a launching pad.
Seems like this “LGF is racist” debate flares up about once a year; the Anil Dash affair of a year and a half ago comes to mind. He ultimately lost that debate. So will you.
Folks, if you go upthread, you’ll see that I’ve edited out a series of comments centering on the notion that LGF should be shut down or sanctioned because it promotes ‘hate speech’.
Sorry, not on this pitch; that’s not a topic of discussion I’m interested in having on one of my posts. Regardless of my bias toward (or against) any blogger, I’m not in the business of shutting people down.
If any of you post on this again, I may elect to ban you.
For all the visitors from LGF, I’m glad you’re here and hope you stick around. Our place is somewhat different from Charles’; think biker bar and college bull session. Each of us (there are a bunch of authors here) control the comments on our threads, and I tend to be fairly ruthless in criticizing and at some point banning people who don’t want to make arguments, but want to have them instead.
There’s no political or religious position you can take here that will get you shut out, if you’re willing to engage fellow commenters in real debate.
There’s no political or religious position you can take here that will save you if you just yell at the top of your lungs.
I’ll keep this as an open thread and be a lot more ‘liberal’ about it here, with the caveat that I’ll ask folks, as above, to get away from the ‘shut him down/ sanction him’ notion – you’re more than welcome to suggest that on your own blog – and I’ll ask you to keep it clean; this is a PG-13 rated blog.
A.L.
It’s interesting that people here, for the most part, who object to the “Muslim bashing” on LGF don’t seem to feel offended at the biased “F” ’em of other nations such as those in Europe.
LGF offers an extremely valuable service and I read it regularly. However, I stopped posting there long ago because of the bigotry against anything this is not red-white-and blue in the American sense. No one else has any value for Charles and the crew except Americans. And if one dares to point out to the “nuke Mecca” crowd that perhaps Israel is not always playing “kosher” well, that will get you swarmed by a bunch of hate hurling Israel/Jewish fans. Israel can do no wrong on LGF. And that, to me is wrong.
As for the administration and its doings. Those truths never get posted as “news” on the LGF site.
I have noticed that reasonable people tend to come and leave—fast. The extremists and “nuke Mecca” folks stay.
“Religion of hate, religion of wife-scalping, religion of ignorance.”
Well, that is what Ali Sina and many former Muslims or Muslim apostates call Islam, SAO: “Today Islam is a danger to human civilization far greater than Nazism was in its time. . .
“. . . We simply do not believe that reforming Islam is possible. And of course we do not see any point to preserve the name of Islam and the belief in a mass murderer, pedophile, rapist, plunderer, and assassin prophet. Christ could be a mythological personage but he is a saintly personage. There is nothing saintly about Muhammad. If anyone behaves like Muhammad today, he would have to expend the rest of his life in Jail. What is the point believing in a pervert man when you do not want to follow him? It is like trying to reform Nazism and make it a doctrine of love. What is the point? . . . “
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/brigit.htm
Kori you need to educate yourself about Islam before making so many PC comments regarding same. It’s NOT the same as “diverse” Protestantism. Islam is a political, social, cultural and so-called religious system covering all the bases in life.
Islam is politics and religion all rolled into one and according to the Qur’an, and cannot be separated nor can Islam be secularized. Islam is mandated to rule the world and that is what makes it more dangerous than the Nazis (as Sina says) because Muslims are virtually everywhere with the same “war manual” in hand— the Qur’an.
“Appeal to their common sense. Economic leverage helps here. We’ve got a lot of good things to share with them here — freedom of religion/speech, capitalism — if we stopped thinking of the masses as the enemy, we might be able to engage them productively, constructively.”
Kori, the masses think of us (the “unbelievers”) as the enemy. Please, read the Qur’an and some books and websites on Islam before trying this PC stuff. It won’t work. They hate us, they want to “revert” us, subjugate us or kill us. Living in peace is not what Islam is all about.
OTOH—On any number of liberal sites IF one should dare to tell the unvarnished truth about Muslims and Islam, even if one uses quotes from the Qur’an and the hadith as well as quotes from Ali Sina’s site “Faith & Freedom International” or newspaper articles in their very own words—well, that will get one attacked with four letter expletive-deletives from all directions and or banned.
One gets the feeling that some people, on either side of the aisle, would kill for peace.
For REAL hate you should go to Islamic sites. Those don’t get shut down, why should LGF? Someone has to tell the truth about the Islamic agenda.
Lili
Paul McKay
Apparently that’s too much to ask. See my question directed at Ed. above. He sticks to his guns yet avoids answering.
While I disagree with you SAO, thank you for engaging. Kori, sames goes for you.
for the record, wandering from the comment sections on yahoo, I don’t think you really have a justification to critique each other in that way. For that matter I don’t think the attack on Kos was all that warranted, although I am not aware really of how influence comes in blogs. If the owner of a blog [who carries a president’s ad banner] comes out and advocates defiling corpses of innocent men, does it carry more weight than an anonymous commenter?
Honestly LGF was a breath of fresh air. Realwest, Rayra, Evariste, Engineer, zulubaby, etc. seem like completely rational conversationable people to me. I find their perspectives valuable because I am immersed in a place where the popular instinct is to shun the questioning that they advocate, to own an Al Franken suppository[book] without really ever cracking the pages.
Charles, since I’ve been there, seems to participate little in the comments section of his own blog, and that may be indicative of the level of sweeping he has to do. That it makes it hard for him to control the direction of the conversation through his own participation. All he can do is present the usual extremely controversial item in a post and hope noone goes ballistic in the comments section, while he’s out buying groceries.
Without LGF, I would have no idea of what was happening in Iran a month ago [the voting fiasco]. That is an example of Charles posting something that portrays parts of the middle east[the protestors, not the guardian council] in a positive light. Healing-Iraq, Zeyad, those blogs, I found them through LGF.
The invasion of Iraq and the quick fall of baghdad and the way it was covered, exposed the subordinate relationship between arab media and the arab state, which is as Charles points out, creeping into Reuters and BBC. I begin to wonder when supposedly unbiased reporting can’t bear to call an Islamic terrorist a terrorist, and instead calls them an Arab militant. That’s an affront to arab militants. I think questioning the liberally dominated media in the way that charles advocates is a good thing.
FWIW, some people on there lately seem to have gone off the deep end, ranting like ‘prophets’ [hint] that the west is doomed to fall to the Islamists because we are too PC. Although there are things that point to that, I’m not convinced that’s going to happen. Americans at least aren’t conditioned to respond easily to radicals. If iraqis were we’d have 23,000,000 sadr followers against us instead of a couple thousand. Are left-blogs free of radicals? Can you point me to some blogs that are free of radical voices?
Proud Albertan,
These people are traumatised. Take the Iraqis for example. Downtrodden by the Turks. Then after WW1 downtrodden by the Brits who occupied the country for 41 years, during which time they and the Americans stole their oil. downtrodden by Saddam. Now they are occupied by an American coalition who are just there again for the oil. What do you expect from them? Roses?
How about Nth Africa? The French, the Spanish, the Italians and the British have lorded it over these people for decades. Shot them, raped them, bombed them and used poison gas on them.
Then to top it off, Zionists with the help of the United States are esconsed in Palestine. Just remember that these the predominantly Ashkenazi
Jews from Russia (Marxists), not a drop of Abraham’s blood in any of them. Try being a Hebrew in Israel. You will be treated like a dog.
If it wasn’t for the injection of American taxpayers’ money (over a trillion dollars to date), Israel would have been a failed state decades ago
You wonder why they hate the West? Just digest the above for a while.
Ed.
“advocates defiling corpses”
see there you go doing your LGF thing, that’s not even close to anything he said
Consider this. If there is a drive to shut down Charles Johnson’s site LittleGreenFootballs, you need to remember one thing. That sword swings both ways.
I’ve just read all of the comments. Some are clear and brave, some are patronizing and some are just down right silly. But that’s what freedom of speech is all about. A little rememberance might help you go a long way. If you should find yourself living under shar’ia law you will not be enjoying the openess and direct exchange of ideas and opinions you are involved in right now.
My last comment is this. If you are afraid to face the truth. If you are afraid of the reality that is not comfortable, safe, copacetic and urbane then don’t come to LGF and read the news/information contained thereof.
Really? I’m anyone. I’ve read the site. And I know no such thing.
And you know why I know no such thing? It’s because you are making all this shit up as you go along, that’s why.
Where, exactly, is Palestine again?
“LGF is hateful”
Your post is a perfect example of the LLL ranting, mantra, rhetoric that is devoid of any real, profound quintessence. You make exaggerated claims of hate speech with the minimal evidence to corroborate such claims. Simply saying that LGF is hateful “because I said so” is a weak condemnation, you better have some compelling examples otherwise most will dismiss you out of hand.
Excuse me, but how the hell do you know who I ban and who I delete, and who I don’t? Have you been seen my ban file?
This is one of the most disingenuous accusations that people make against me.
I don’t keep track of each and every banned poster or deleted post, so I can’t assure you that the number on each side is exactly the same, but your accusation is totally false. I have banned a number of people for expressing hateful opinions — ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.
Completely disingenuous. My first (and last) experience contributing to LGF consisted of my responding to a typical string of vitriol regarding the Palestinians. Nothing racist or vengeful or expressing hatred…just pointing out the hypocrisy of the messages being posted. The result? Not only was my message removed, by my IP address was blacklisted, preventing me from posting any follow-up message. Is that your idea of freedom of speech, Charles?
You’re an asshole, Charles. Cut the mullet and get a life.
Note — that last reply of mine was to “LGF Is Hateful”.
I think that many LGFers have sufficiently defended Charles and LGF here, but I would like to add one summarizing comment. It seems that the fundamental divergence between WoC and LGF is that the people on WoC feel there is a moral equivalence between Islam and the West, and that Islam is merely “just another religion.” In harsher terms, WoCers are moral relativists who believe that the West’s conception of good and evil is no more valid than that of any other culture. LGFers, on the other hand, feel as if they have been slapped awake by 9/11, and many have come to a shocking realization — after grokking mountains of evidence — that Islam is NOT the equivalent of Judaism or Christianity or Hinduism or any other religion. There is no moral equivalence. Islam is not the benign happyland philosophy that WoCers wish it was. Islam is, at its core, extremely ill-intentioned and not good for humanity. “Moderate Muslims” are only moderate to the extent that they reject true Islam. A “moderate Muslim” is merely a backsliding jack-Muslim (to use Mormon terminology). LGFers have arrived at these conclusions not through ignorance or hate, but through investigation and perceptiveness. And it is the belief of most of us at LGF that the rest of the world — presented with sufficient evidence — would wake up to these facts as well. Which is the reason why Charles posts an unrelenting and irrefutable barrage of information supporting the accurate notion that Islam is the greatest danger to the world today. He is trying (and succeeding) to educate naive and complacent people.
Final comment: WoCers might be surprised to learn that (by my estimate) at least 50% of the posters at LGF are “former liberals” (or even current liberals) whose loathing of Islam is a natural outgrowth of their progressive ideals. Just like hatred of Nazism was a natural outgrowth of progresive ideals in the ’30s.
Try reading LGF with an open mind. Ignore the extremists and trolls you don’t like. You might learn something.
I can only hope.
E.A. Woodman……….your post plays perfectly into the Islamic mindset……….I simply cannot respond to such lunacy…..I would be wasting my time.
Thanks
“Sellam Ismail”
One, your e-mail address shows up as ‘nobody@littlegreenfootballs.com’ — an obvious forgery.
Two — name the thread this allegedly happened in. I’ve never seen you on LGF, and I go there regularly.
littlegreenaddict –
You don’t know how wrong you are when you say ‘the people on WoC feel there is a moral equivalence between Islam and the West, and that Islam is merely “just another religion.” In harsher terms, WoCers are moral relativists who believe that the West’s conception of good and evil is no more valid than that of any other culture.‘ Can I invite you read around and revisit that idea?
A.L.
Ed Woodman is an antisemite and is not contributing to the conversation.
Just to debunk one of his viler points, Ashkenazi Jews are genetically quite similar to other Jews, and different from Russians and Europeans.
But don’t let facts and science bother you, Ed.
Several times, especially when I first started reading LGF on a regular basis, I was put off by some of the comments there. One day, I complained to Charles, and he rightfully explained to me (in an eloquent email that took time out of his busy day) that he couldn’t adaquately police the huge volume of traffic he gets – and more importantly, many of those people have a very good reason to overreact.
This hit me where I live, because for that one morning I’d lost sight of what’s most important for me… protecting my family, my home, and my country. That one morning, I actually heard myself saying something stupid like, “Why do they hate us?”
The islamofascists hate us because we believe in freedom, and we dare to flaunt that freedom in the face of their backward beliefs. And their extremist, fascist, hate-filled leaders inspire them to kill us and our families for daring to violate the tenents of their barbaric culture.
Some of us have every reason to hate them in return.
That we resist at all the impulse to hate like them and instead focus our rage only on our enemies (while continuing to show compassion to the innocent) is a testament to the inherent goodness of our Western cultures, religions, and ideals.
Never forget. And piss on anyone who tells me to calm down. Click on that link up there and look into that man’s eyes and tell me that I have no right to hate the bastards that killed him.
No, I shouldn’t hate. But when I calm down and choose not to hate, it’s on my terms, not yours.
I was banned, and my IP blocked as well by Charles for simply and civilly speaking my mind – trying to represent non hate-filled Jewish left wing people
I was never rude or abusive, though I was often cursed at and insulted by the LGF people, simply for expressing carefully written and often well documented information
Eventually they presumed that I must not really be Jewish after all and that I must be one of the Arabs that they are so obsessed with.
I am incredibly grateful for LGF. LGF is doing a great service to you all, including its critics, the liberal left and the indifferent.
As a previous poster said, we are in a war. It doesn’t feel like one, but this is just because you all trust the US armed forces which defend our freedom in those badlands. An enemy is someone who is willing to get killed in order to kill us. 3000 of us, or more. Who is this enemy ? And why does he want to kill us ? Why is he our enemy ? The great service LGF is doing us is to show us who the enemy really is. Not how we define him, by trying to include his motivations in our western intellectual framework. But who the enemy really is, what his fantastic ideology is and what it is capable to do. Look at those armies of black clad robots marching and chanting for death. LGF is giving us a magnifying glass into our enemy’s evilness. Thank you Charles !
I think what I object to at LGF, based on the comments I’ve seen here (and my past experience at the site), is that the people there overwhelmingly hate others, rather than phenomena. You can see it in this comments section — thoughtfulness was hijacked in favor of hating anti-LGFers. SAO hates the racism and fascism he sees at LGF far more than he hates LGFers, I believe (based on his/her comments), but it doesn’t appear such a balanced approach is reciprocated. It seems quite a few LGFers take it personally.
This is a shame. I don’t believe it can lead to constructive political dialogue; rather, it debases it. Hating each other will never get us anywhere, except maybe to our own hell on Earth.
As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I am one who believes the most efficacious way to combat and pass victory over an enemy is know him. Hate will only cloud your judgment and if too strong, render you useless, or useful to someone with malevolent intentions.
Odd…I just linked to LGF through WOC and was not allowed to comment…anyone know why that might be? Honestly, although I was prepared to defend WOC, Joe and AL, I had positive things to say about the information offered on the site.
I’m going to briefly wade in to the very shallow end of this discussion (for now) to say that (as anybody who has seen me post knows) the shmuck posting as “Jheka” above is not me (Admin can compare IP addresses). This same anti-Israel shmuck has done the exact same thing on Charles’ site, Allahpundit’s site and, recently, Kathryn Cramer’s blog (and likely other places) posting hateful comments as a number of different pro-Israel DUers and former DUers. He is one of the people who inhabits or used to inhabit the Israel/Palestine forum of DU and is now in the People for Change site that is inhabitted by the fringe elements of DU (and that’s saying something). He trolls LGF and stalks certain posters from site to site. On Allah’s blog, recently he was using an AOL account. He was using an MSN as recently as yesterday (so Kathryn Cramer informed me in an e-mail thanking me for giving her a heads-up). He has, in the past, posted as me, DU Jimbo, DRDon326, Herschel and other current and former DUers that he is seeking to smear.
He has been doing this schtick for months (and is now trying to get Jim Sagle banned from DU using my name … subtle.
Ed.
Since when is paying to discover it, paying to drill for it and paying for the oil itself theft?
Yes let’s. Home of those responsible for the Locherbie bomber. Home of those responsible for the bombings in Spain. Home of Sudan, responsible for the murder of 2 million Christians and animists (unless one considers it to be central Africa.
Ahhh good for you Ed, finding the racist elements there. Care to provide some links or proof. I have some educational material you may find enlightening.
Try going here and here and here and here and here and here and finally here for a few clues on why you might have been banned. You refused to let the facts stand in your way of accusing the Jews of being land grabbing, tyranical invaders.
TC-you should be able to comment unless you’ve previously been banned, which it doesn’t sound like it. I’ll ask Charles on your behalf, hopefully he’ll see it and respond.
TC –
I just posted on LGF and had no probs at all.
Reading through these posts, and I am wondering if the issue is hate speech or that the general political slant of LGF is to right of many of the “loudest” complainers – particularly when it comes to the War on Terror.
E.A. Woodward – posters don’t get banned on LGF for arriving and announcing something derogatory about Israel or Sharon. Posters might get called on it – asked to produce some facts / links / details to substantiate their viewpoint as fact or opinion. The only ones who get banned are the ones who go way over the top in invective.
Despite the name calling, people on LGF aren’t knuckle draggers or rednecks – they are as educated and as traveled as any group of people representing a large number of countries. On LGF we use use links to define facts or to back positions – and these also differentiate fact from opinion. As with any site with open commentary – you will frequently get plenty of opinions.
In the discussions of these opinions and the resulting debates – you will find passionate defences and claims. You will also find more tolerance than on many webblogs for different viewpoints. Good comments and positions are recognized for what they are – and crass ones are equally fast to be addressed by those who disagree.
Perhaps what bothers you the most is that opinions without willingness to debate in good faith and politically correctness are generally not tolerated well.
The bile and hatred one can find on “left” leaning blogs in my opinion far exceed the statements of hatred on LGF. And unlike LGF, anyone referencing differing points of view on those other sites, are more likely to be shouted down, intimidated, or banned.
Charles’s role with LGF to me is to stimulate discussion, and let people interact, and on the site we will learn about issues that we are facing. You call it a hate site because at times LGF is less than friendly towards Islam. Some people cherry pick comments to support this viewpoint – but how many of you came to LGF with an open mind, a willingness to debate in good faith, and an understanding of history or a supply of facts?
Do differing viewpoints threaten you so much that it has to be defamed and shut down? Or are your egos such that you aren’t willing to participate, learn, and perhaps have your viewpoint handed back to you by someone else on LGF who might be able to educate you at same time.
Debate and discussion are what takes place on LGF. Only on rare occassions does the rhetoric cross that line – and on those events either the regular posters or Charles step in. I’ve seen as many events that have involved hatred from both sides of the philosophical aisle. That’s real life. That’s what happens in debate and discussion. That is freedom of speech.
But to denigrate the site because you don’t agree with it isn’t intellectually honest. Stay away from it if you wish – but if you do – its really your loss.
As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I am one who believes the most efficacious way to combat and pass victory over an enemy is know him.
Which is exactly why you need to keep reading LGF.
I was suspicious, Jheka! What a creep!!
Kori, we hate an ideology…..an Ideology that is called Islam that makes people behave in the most obscene brutal ways and has done so for 1400 years……please learn what a dichtomoy is……Muslims are the first victims of Islam…let us never forget that….
Thanks
TC — ISTR that CJ announced that he had to group-ban a bunch of AOL addresses, so it might be that your domain is blocked.
Babylonian — wow, another “I was banned!” story from somebody who I can’t remember ever seeing in the comment threads. What, did you guys all get the same script?
What threads do you remember posting on?
Another long time LGF poster here – going on 2 years – and I just wanted to repeat the obvious – even though it has already been stated so eloquently by others. Charles provides an incredibly valuable service and community unlike any other around and I thank him for it.
As anybody who has tried knows, if you go to LGF with a sincere desire to debate, you’ll meet dozens of well educated men and women more than willing to participate. I’ve occasionally seen dissenting views that were misunderstood to be trolling, but assuming they stick around and display the remotest hint of sincerity, they’ll find a warm (albeit challenging) environment.
LGF is an indispensable tool for anybody serious about understanding what’s going on in the world right now – that a fraction of a percentage of comments are over the top should not deter those serious about seeking knowledge from learning from both the LGF posts/links and the comments.
Again, thank you Charles for all you do.
Chuckg-I should have thought of the AOL thing. D’oh.
Charles is being disingenuous about who he blocks and why:
I was banned, and my IP blocked as well by Charles for simply and civilly speaking my mind – trying to represent non hate-filled Jewish left wing people. I was never rude or abusive, though I was often cursed at and insulted by the LGF people, simply for expressing carefully written and often well documented information
Eventually they presumed that I must not really be Jewish after all and that I must be one of the Arabs that they are so obsessed with.
Who knows, maybe Charles wants to present Jewish people as hate mongers, and incites it on purpose.
And you know, it’s not just that the site is often racist and hate filled.
The site gets really into calls for ethnic cleansing too and other funkiness:
Charles wrote:Guaranteed: bring up the subject of “transferring” Palestinians and the usual suspects will start shrieking “genocide.”
In that ethnic cleansing thread Charles writes:
“To be honest, I hesitated to post this entry because I knew I’d be called a racist and an “ethnic cleanser” just for mentioning it.”
well gee, Charles, whatever made you think someone would think of you as an “ethnic cleanser” for sounding all pleased that a US Republican endorsed ethnic cleansing in Palestine and then posting supporting pro-ethnic cleansing materials from an ultra-right-wing ultra-nationalist illegal settler pirate radio station? You never did say if you thought it was a bad idea did you
Say what you want about some of the LGF posters, but you cannot accuse Charles of banning people for being “liberal”. It takes a real abusive ass, or obvious troll, to get banned from LGF. The reason why so few liberals are present on the site because it’s a sharktank for such individuals, not because anyone censors them out.
Pity we can’t say the same about sites like Daily Kos and Democraticunderground, eh?
Based on your ranting persona here you’re not missed, Babylonian, and I doubt your self-characterization as a civil, fact-equipped poster is accurate.
Proud Albertan,
Yeah, don’t go on believing everything George W. Bush tells you. Try reading a bit of history instead. There are libraries full of them.
You might for example try reading the history of Chechnia and the brutality inflicted on them by the Russians over the centuries. They never considered themselves as part of Russia and have always fought against them. But of course by G.W. Bush’s definition they are to be regarded as terrorists.
If Alberta Canada was invaded would you join in the fight against the invader and be prepared to
be considered a terrorist by the enemy?
It’s all about OIL and Israel. Remember that Bush, Cheney and Co. are all oil guys!
Saddam was a cream puff and didn’t constitute a threat to anyone. Bush, who never served in a conflict himself was quite prepared to sacrifice the lives of American troops in a big oil play.
Ed.
Ismail, I don’t know either way what you posted or didn’t post at LGF. You allude to it, but you don’t quote it.
Can you say _exactly_ what you said, without paraphrasing or ellisions? I find it hard to believe that you’d be banned and deleted w/o some cause.
Of course, you don’t have to respond to me. That’s your right & no harm, no foul. I’m just curious w/ what led to your banning.
I stopped visiting LGF not only because I was outnumbered (I’m here, right?), and not only because the right-wing commenters were routinely hostile and personally insulting, but principally because most of them don’t know their heads from their asses on the Middle East and don’t want to learn.[*] Sure, it’s good that LGF republishes some nuggets from MEMRI or even Debka, but once you’ve found those links, why stay for the comments? Just an echo chamber of people looking for a safe place to write a type of bigotry that, even against Muslims or Arabs, isn’t acceptable in polite discourse.
[*] LGF was split between commenters who claimed Israel would never officially practice torture (and only anti-Semites would think that) and those who claimed that Israel practiced torture that was well-justified by the security situation (and only anti-Semites would deny this right). My attempt to get A to argue with B while I took on the winner, alas, failed.
evariste:
Have a little faith, my friend … I did not suddenly turn troll 🙂 … the real Jheka
TC wrote:
Odd…I just linked to LGF through WOC and was not allowed to comment…anyone know why that might be? Honestly, although I was prepared to defend WOC, Joe and AL, I had positive things to say about the information offered on the site.
You got caught in a block against the UCLA IP range, that I had to put up after a series of insane posts came from there. I removed that block, and you won’t have a problem now.
Armed Liberal…
“…WoCers are moral relativists who believe that the West’s conception of good and evil is no more valid than that of any other culture.’ Can I invite you read around and revisit that idea?”
Perhaps you should expound further on your comment at the very top when you say…
“we’re willing to accept the humanity of everyone – including our enemies…”
I’m not a philosophy expert, but this sounds like moral relativism to me. The key word is “humanity”, which has many meanings.
Ismail: tell me the name you posted under. It’s easy to make an accusation like yours, but if you have any courage, you’ll give me the information I need to track down your exact post, so we can all see why you were banned.
Kori
So when exactly do you know your enemy well enough? How long? Will it be before they attack again? Will it be before another terrorist attack decides our election? Many of us at LGF believe we DO know the enemy. Certainly well enough to remove the rose colored glasses.
In case you didn’t notice, you’ve got it whether you want to engage in “meaningful political dialogue” or not. War has been declared on us and whiile you stuggle to understand or engage, people are dying. The time for talk is over. Talk is cheap, particularly in this case.
I find it very interesting that none of the LGF-bashers here have seen fit to address the “skunk” that was rolled into this discussion by Armed Liberal earlier:
“Let me roll a skunk into the discussion.
You say ‘…I would say it’s pretty obvious that religious persecution is a dangerous activity to participate in (or encourage).’
What if the religion involved is bad? What if it, as a mainstream value, advocates things which we find horrible and intolerable?
You’re starting out pretty much as the rest of us do; assuming that everyone is the same except that they eat spicier food than we do and wear more interesting clothers (hyperbole, I know, but bear with me).
What if they aren’t?
A.L.”
This, to me, is the 800-lb gorilla sitting in the room with us here. I am a regular LGF reader and find it invaluable because IT DOES NOT IGNORE THE SKUNK. I am easily able to sort out what is racist and intolerant in the comments section, which, IMO, is actually a very small percentage of the total.
Kori: you seem to be opposed to hate in all its forms. I’d like to challenge you with the words of Lance Morrow, written on Sept. 12, 2001:
“For once, let’s have no “grief counselors” standing by with banal consolations, as if the purpose, in the midst of all this, were merely to make everyone feel better as quickly as possible. We shouldn’t feel better.
For once, let’s have no fatuous rhetoric about “healing.” Healing is inappropriate now, and dangerous. There will be time later for the tears of misfortune note.
A day cannot live in infamy without the nourishment of rage. Let’s have rage. What’s needed is a unified, unifying, Pearl Harbor sort of purple American fury—a ruthless indignation that doesn’t leak away in a week or two, wandering off into Prozac-induced forgetfulness or into the next media sensation (O.J. … Elián … Chandra …) or into a corruptly thoughtful relativism (as has happened in the recent past, when, for example, you might hear someone say, “Terrible what he did, of course, but, you know, the Unabomber does have a point, doesn’t he, about modern technology?”).
Let America explore the rich reciprocal possibilities of the fatwa. A policy of focused brutality does not come easily to a self-conscious, self-indulgent, contradictory, diverse, humane nation with a short attention span. America needs to relearn a lost discipline, self-confident relentlessness—and to relearn why human nature has equipped us all with a weapon (abhorred in decent peacetime societies) called hatred.”
All the banned people claiming “I wasn’t like the others, man! I was reasonable and nice!” are about as credible as all the guys in jail who are “innocent”. Charles doesn’t ban people for disagreeing civilly with a level head. That’s just a load of…
And the regulars won’t abuse and curse at and insult someone who’s really there to have a conversation, either. Babylonian and Ed Woodman just sound like delusional ranting street preachers.
What poppycock.
By the way, some of the people posting here are now trying to get our hosting company to terminate our account.
Lovely folks.
I barely have time to toss in my ” 2 cents worth”, but LGF (on the whole) is interesting, informative, funny…and that’s why thousands of people visit the site every day.
As for getting flamed, I’ve had disagreements with various LGF posters, including Charles, but I never got anything but polite debate. Perhaps it’s because I didn’t preface all my posts with, “Now listen here, you flaming rightwing suchandsuch!”
E.A. Woodman
Your last post reveals all anyone needs to know about you.
I believe LGF is the most timely and informative site on the internet. Eighteen to twenty-four months ago I followed some link to LGF and have been visiting almost daily ever since. At first, I could go there in the evening and read all Charles’ posted news items and all the comments in less than an hour. Now that’s impossible, with comments exceeding 1,000 and more most days. The notion that Charles can monitor every comment is ludicrous. Comments which are deleted are not simple dissent from the views held by most posters, but what I think of as stink bombs thrown out mostly to be offensive.
Some regulars do have strong views and make comments that some will find offensive, but I have to admit that most don’t bother me. During the twentieth century we had a war where only total defeat and unconditional surrender of the enemies was considered acceptable. Some at LGF think we might be headed toward that with radical Islam, and they at times express opinions consistent with that view, and some include the states which support and/or tolerate the international terrorists. I don’t think anyone can say for certain it won’t come to that, and I believe whether it does or not will not be determined by the west, but by the longer range intentions of Muslims.
After reading LGF for a time, one learns about the regular posters and where some of them “are coming from.” Quite a few can tell you about what percent of the families were lost in the holocaust, or how their parents or grandparents managed to escape. So, LGF is very much anti-terror and pro-Israel.
But in spite of the occasional over-the-edge remarks, one can come there and get perspectives from many Americans of various backgrounds, plus Europeans from several countries and Israelis, particularly interesting when major events take place. As mentioned in other posts, there are many very intelligent and well informed participants, and most anyone could learn a great deal if they get in on the right discussion thread. The regulars are extremely quick to answer any questions, and almost always produce well reasoned and well documented responses.
But all the PC hairsplitting going on here seems ridiculous. I don’t care how many nice Muslim co-workers one might have. Have you heard the term “bloody borders”? Do you know if your nice co-worker believes that Muslims have a religious duty to bring Islamic law wherever they might live? Do you wonder why every opinion poll shows 60% or more of Muslims supporting OBL and suicide bombers? What do you really know about the actions of the prophet Mohammed during his lifetime? Do you believe that Islam really does mean peace?
All these self-appointed moral arbiters getting getting off criticizing Charles and LGF because of occasional over-the-edge remarks by posters mostly seem naive and very impressed with themselves. Maybe you should come to LGF and find some old threads of interest to you, and read enough newer ones to really get a flavor for what goes on there. I think many of you could learn a great deal because there is a wealth of well supported information that has accumulated over more than two years. Or maybe you think 9/11 and all that’s happened since, and continues to happen, is nothing to be concerned about. But if you think it is something to be concerned about, LGF is the best place on the web to stay informed about the WoT, Israel, Islam and other related topics.
But people there are no where near as hyper-sensitive and PC as some of the posters here. And, yes, PC does have a lot to doe with this entire discussion tonight.
I don’t understand this percentage defense, Charles.
Who cares if it’s 0.003% or whatever. The fact of the matter is that you see the post and do nothing about it, but manage to quickly delete any anti-semitic comments in a matter of minutes. I’ve visited the site a few times and noticed one particular poster by the name of camel prophet, who constantly talks about killing all muslims before it’s too late. You even attribute him as the source (ie “hat tip”) of some of your posts.
LGF takes individual stories from a sample pool of 1.3 billion muslims (the percentage defense works here too) and makes gross generalisations. There’s nothing new to this tactic, it’s been used against blacks by several groups.
Of course Islam needs to be questioned in this critical juncture, but not in the manner that’s conducted by LGF.
My theory is that Charles feels that if he takes too hard a line against the anti-muslim posts his visitor counts will take a huge hit.
Ed
Quite a surprise seeing anything regarding history coming from you, oh willfully blind one. Physician, heal thyself!
Considering the amoung of hackneyed, trite, resoundingly pummeled canards you float, I can see why you were banned. Yet you reject my links AND my request for an answer to a very simple question.
If it was really about oil we’d have drilled in ANWR and invaded Mexico and/or Venezuela Ed. Closer and cheaper.
Lili,
I’m hardly educated about Islam, and I have no problem saying anything “politically correct” (though I’ve never been accused of such) if I happen to be so. That said, I understand what you are saying about Islam covering all the bases. It is, however, diverse, which seems obvious to me. And certainly offshoots/subcategories such as Ibadi Muslims, Bahai’i, Sufis, arguably Sikhs have very different ways of intepreting the political aspects of the Qur’an — a book which, by the way, is written so poetically, can be quite flexibly interpreted.
You know that just because some fundamentalist types have declared a war on our civilization doesn’t mean that’s what it is, right? They’re not going to win. That should be obvious. It is therefore up to us to determine the terms of engagement. Democracies don’t do “wars of civilizations” — religions and political religions like fascism do. But by and large the regimes comprising the Arab regimes are creaky autocratic entities buckling from political, demographic and economic pressure. They’re not necessarily religious in nature, and not all events occuring there need to be viewed through that lens.
Living in peace is what all religions are/should be about. Some do this better than others. Obviously Catholicism has been put in its place. There is no need for us to cry The End of the World for Islam to grow up too. Especially when the part of the world we’re really worried about — the Arab world (which is only one part of the Islamic world) — can be engaged on numerous fronts excluding the religious ones. Don’t be so narrow-minded; you’ll never convince them to open up that way.
Oh and the other thing? Remember that there are 1.3 billion Muslims out there. It would be pragmatic to not treat them as all the same. It would also be wise to note that if you’re thinking all of them are worthy of destruction, that’s quite a bit of death. Better to learn how to coexist, and evolve towards peace.
NTropy – I’m a little baffled by your comments. Do you feel we’re not acting enough? I don’t think you can ever stop knowing your enemy — the whole point of action is to destroy your enemy — then you can stop knowing him! 🙂 But who is that enemy? Is it Islam? Or the perversion of Islam that many are using to politically oppress or murder with? I like “Islamofascism” myself; I think that captures it nicely.
Furthermore, there’s never a time for talk to be over on blogs. 🙂 If you think it’s cheap, I don’t believe anyone is forcing you to type your words?
JC – I engaged in the skunk, way way upthread. But frankly, so many people are posting, it’s hard to keep up. I may not continue.
‘is hateful:
“see there you go doing your LGF thing, that’s not even close to anything he said”
Well, I if you read my post I didn’t condemn Kos for his post. I merely question what he said, that he felt it was conscionable for Iraqis to defile the bodies of americans. Later he said it was because they were paid mercenaries instead soldiers. Forgive me if I am still left wondering what he is implying, being that he was popular enough to have a presidential campaign banner. In the other parts of my post I also talked about inappropriate comments on LGF. Do you agree?
Kori: “the people there overwhelmingly hate others, rather than phenomena”
A phenomena did not fly those planes into the Twin Towers nor the Pentagon nor a field in Pennsylvania. They were specific men, driven by a specific set of beliefs, the same beliefs held by many other men that would proudly do the same thing, killing more of our friends and relatives.
why do you not protest against the Arab and Islamic opression of women? the brutal Syrian occupation of Lebanon? the PA/PLO’s terrorism of Palestinian dissidents? The endemic mutilation of girls’ genitals in Egypt?
Excuse me, “brutal Syrian occupation of Lebanon”? Since when do the Syrians fire missles from Apache helicopters into crowded marketplaces, or raze entire towns with American made bulldozers? You might do well to buy a whiff of perspective here, Tony.
By the way, LGF has at least 4 arab regulars. How many arabs and muslims do you have participating here?
Wow, 4 whole Arabs, out of a pile of hundreds of frothing, raging anti-Arab zealots. That’s a useful statistic.
We judge you by the company you keep, Tony. Do the words “sell-out” mean anything to you?
Ismail: I’m waiting for your information so I can check on why you were banned.
If you really were.
Tim
In all earnestness, do you have a suggestion? How would you do it?
Yes, Arabs who don’t hate America and Jews don’t count. Thanks for the clarification, Sellam Ismail.
And Clarence Thomas is an Uncle Tom.
You’d do better to keep quiet, because when you speak we can all tell how ugly you are inside, Sellam.
Glad to read that Saddam was a cream puff (?) who never posed a threat to anyone, Ed. Guess those mass graves filled with, among others, toddlers and their toys weren’t anybody.
Did they not count because they were children? Did they not count because of their religion? What, specifically, was the reason that they don’t count? I’m really curious about that. Why didn’t their family members and villagers count, Ed?
And why aren’t you checking my account Charles?
“Arguing from extremes” in comments sections, whether here or at LGF, or on the Yahoo chat boards, or at DailyPundit, etc., is simply a ridiculous pastime.
Can it really be distilled to such simple terms that LGF is a hate site and Charles the hate-monger? Charles posts a translation from MEMRI of a sermon from a Mosque in Riyadh, and out of hundreds of comments, some are quite vile.
By extension, can it be also be said that Yahoo is a hate-site and Yahoo News the hate-mongers? After all, Yahoo posts a story from the AP about 12 Marines killed in battle in Iraq and out of thousands of comments, some are quite vile.
Sounds silly to me; Yahoo is clearly not a hate-site yet some of the comments on Yahoo are nothing less than racist.
This leads to the question (one I am sure asked here before): Are the comments in a site considered a part of the editorial content of that site? I don’t believe they are; I am sure there are those who would disagree with me.
As to what Charles deletes and what he does not: although I cannot cite the case exactly (so to speak), I do recall that a comment advocating the deaths of muslims in the US quickly disappeared with a warning from Charles. This example is anecdotal, but I believe not unique.
Are some of the comments simply hate-filled emotional posts and “arguments from extremes”? Yes. All? No. Are they a part of the editorial content offered by Charles on LGF? No.
Do some of the comments on LGF erode our standing “..to accept the humanity of everyone – including our enemies”? This is tricky, since a comment is, to me, a “letter to the editor” while a blog is analogous to an old-fashioned pamphlet; the comments represent only the commentor in response to a post. In Charles’ case, the post is a link to an existing news source. I don’t believe the comments erode our standing. I do believe, however, that a position taken on a blog is a different matter and, as an essentially editorial statement, represents our standing whatever that standing may be. I have not read anything by LGF that could be considered (editorially) hateful.
Caveat: I personally eroded that standing as A.L. describes it when I exhibited not a little joy when Yassin was assassinated. It was a hasty post in an emotional moment, and although I am embarassed by it now, I leave it up along with a later, more sober, post. I also get about 4 comments per week, so policing comments is easier than for some of you guys. However, a comment on my weblog is not my weblog, and it represents not me but the person who left the comment.
OK, this is turning into a blog post in and of itself, and so enough rambling from me!
Well Max Darkside, obviously, but they were also phenomena in that they took advantage of our leaky immigration system, our sleeping intelligence services, and our general cultural lack of awareness to their existence, not to mention bases of operations in Afghanistan, to support and fund their trip to heaven. Don’t fall into the same trap the extreme left does — these aren’t people that woke up one day to kill us. They have systemic financial and military support and coherent ideology — they have in short, strengths, and therefore weaknesses. So do we. That’s the nature of the game.
They also have sick societies helping them along with moral support, but that’s another can of worms or phenomena if you prefer.
I would expect censorship in the old Soviet Union or such dictatorships but in ‘The Land of the Free’ to learn that you have to suck up to the proprietor’s political leaning, makes the term Free Press a bit of a joke.
I personally believe that most journalistic opinion is biased towards the proprietor’s views. Let’s face it. It is his business after all and journalists only retain their jobs by complying with the employer’s wishes. People like Murdoch, Conrad Black and the like consider themseves kingmakers and do their utmost to deliver votes to whatever politicians they have in their pockets in return for favours.
So, by all means read the postings of the trogs, with their heads up their asses, on Little Green Fascists but go the bathroom afterwards and wash yourself thoroughly. It might make you feel a bit better.
Ed
Excuse me, “brutal Syrian occupation of Lebanon”? Since when do the Syrians fire missles [sic] from Apache helicopters into crowded marketplaces, or raze entire towns with American made bulldozers? You might do well to buy a whiff of perspective here, Tony.
Good point, Syrians have been occupying Lebanon passively, ignoring all those suicide bombers and the multiple attempts made by organized and European-funded Lebanese terrorist groups allied with various neighboring nations to invade and annihilate every last Syrian. The arming of militia/terrorist groups in crowded Lebanese towns and villages was also done very passively, but hey, putting military equipment dead center in the middle of populated civilian towns is the epitome of passivity, huh? Oh, and the ever so passive refusal to give Palestinians the mere semblance of equal citizenship lest their proxy war against Israel be harmed is, well, ever so humanitarian.
If you’re trying to compare Baathist Syria to Israel, you have quite the uphill battle ahead of you, I suggest you to move on.
SecHumaniest, Oh I am waiting for his weak attempt to try to compare Baathist Syria to Democratic Israel. Then we can talk about the Kurdish uprising in Syria and its occpuation of Lebanon etc etc etc.
Kori
First of all, I didn’t intend my comment to be about this particular discussion (though at this late hour even that is bcoming a possiblity – work tomorrow and all).
In many ways, yes.
Or until he takes action and destroys us. And quite honestly I would prefer the former over the latter any day. And since the latter is the expressed desire of our enemy, I believe I know him well enough right now.
I don’t believe there is a distinction. Muslims are not Western rugged individualists. That isn’t their culture. I believe it aligns more with the Central and South American affinity for the “strong man”. As Charles commented recently, Arab Muslims are a tribal culture based on shame and saving face. Between the two, I don’t think there is any difference between Islam and “Islamofascism” as you termed it. I was going to limit it to simply Middle Eastern Islam but the same is reflected in Islam of the Pacific Rim as well as Western European Islam embodied in immigrants.
I don’t have time to post often, but I regularly read LGF. Some of the comments and posters do cross the line of ‘taste’ in their comments but there is nothing here that leads me to conclude that LGF is a hang-out for anti-anyone’s.
One thing I found very attractive about LGF, when I first started reading and posting, was that there were many people who had a similar background to me and seemed to be having the same journey I’m having. It was not, and is not, an easy journey. I was very glad to find a blog where the posters were not afraid of speaking in ways Liberals have been taught NOT to speak.
Liberals have an automatic suppression in the brain that immediately retreats from passing judgements. “No group is worse or better than another group.” –> That’s the mentality I had ingrained into me.
My background is very Liberal. I never read much about the groups like Osama’s until after 9/11. What I read, FROM THEIR OWN WEBSITES, shocked me.
As I continued to read more and more I was very alarmed. I was uncomfortable being alarmed because my alarm stemmed from a judgement I had made about groups like Osama’s. My judgement was NOT in their favor.
I realized, as I read the Islamists’ sites, that they did not want anything we had. They want to take over and reshape our world to be one huge Caliphate. There isn’t anything we can offer to them that would cause them to give up this goal.
Now, it hasn’t been very popular to talk like this among many Liberals. I know, because I rejected my conclusions at first since they went counter to my Liberal world-view. But, I couldn’t deny what I had been reading. It was all spelled out.
What I found so comforting about LGF was the fact that there were many others with my background who were making the same discoveries I was making. They felt as uncomfortable as I did, at first. But when you take the blinders off and start believing the writings and actions of the Islamists, you realize you must expose what is going on.
LGF reports stories the major media may cover, but not very well. We have become too conservative in our Liberalism to allow our media to state bluntly what is happening around the world.
Many of the opinions may not be liked by some. That’s ok, I don’t like the opinions on some other blogs. But I think what is REALLY disliked is the refusal of LGF and its posters to be cowered by the ‘thought/word/speech’ police who are the self-appointed guardians of our ‘free’ society.
What is talked about is a shock to people who are used to having targets like the US &/or Israel as the perpetual bad guys. It’s not considered proper to point out any other group’s failings except for the US, Israel, Right Wing Conspiracy, Christians Fundamentalists, etc..
It’s been so long that people have had a chance to look at things from another viewpoint that makes LGF offensive to some. The views expressed are not the ones they are used to and they don’t like them being expressed.
I have never found the topics to be anti-anyone. It’s just discussions on news of the day. The posters on LGF are speaking truth to the power held by the ‘thought/word/ideology’ police and speaking truth to power has always been unpleasant for the speakers.
Ed, Ed, Ed (shaking head sadly). You really must hone up on your debating skills.
Kori:
our leaky immigration system
(check)
our sleeping intelligence services
(check)
our general cultural lack of awareness to their existence
(could work more on this)
bases of operations in Afghanistan
(check)
systemic financial [support]
(check)
military support
(check)
coherent ideology
(could work more on this)
Looks like you’ve nicely covered President Bush’s on-the-mark execution. We could work more on the awareness of the ideology. That’s EXACTLY where LGF and other sites like it, is helping.
Ntropy,
The first thing I’d do is make a clear distinction between extremist Muslims (i.e. wahabist) and ordinary Muslims, who pretty much have the same priorities as everyone else (i.e. wanting a good future for their children etc etc)
Stephen Schwartz is a prime example of how one can attack the enemies we now face without creating a west vs. Islam atmosphere. Incidentally, his opinion of LGF isn’t all that positive.
LGF doesn’t make this distinction and actually suggests that Islam as a whole is inherently flawed (similar to proud Albertans post)
Muslims are not going to be forced into mass conversion so why not attack the extremist instead of giving them ammo for their propaganda?
Thanks for the sincere question btw. Given how passionate people are in this thread it’s easy for one to insult those who they disagree with.
Sean,
And just what would that be? I’ve got a thick skin. I’m not going to cry. Take your best shot.
Ed.
OK, as to the substance of this discussion:
I have been posting on LGF for just over a year and a half (my first post was on 09/06/02). In my time there I have met some of the most decent, thoughtful, introspective people on the web. these include (but are most emphatically not limited to) Occasional Reader, colt, mommydoc, hans ze beeman (who came to LGF disagreeing with just about everything and everybody but was civil and thoughtful, was NOT banned or anything close to it and eventually became a respected contributor), evariste, monsterdog, levely, lizzy and literally scores of others. There are terrific writing talents who post there (iowahawk, e.nough, allah, etc.,). What is in VERY short supply is racism or blind bigotry of any nature. Is Islamism despised? You bet. But ask just about any regular poster and they’ll explain exactly why they hold the view that they hold. You may disagree with their reasoning, but you’re going to get a reason because when there is a difference of opinion, simple sloganeering is very much frowned upon by the regulars. LGFers comiserate, argue, debate (with each other and newcomers) and are proud of the fact that LGF is “the site that fact checks your … um … tush.” “Nuke Mecca” and other strange lefty projections is most emphatically NOT the prevailing view at LGF (whose posters can generally be described as pragmatic). LGFers, rather than hating all Muslims or Arabs are constantly in search of the rare “moderates” in those groups and, when such brave sould are found, they are lionized on LGF. Here, check this out … look how the Arab (“amal”) and liberal (“leftist”) posters are treated in this thread:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=9738
LGFers hate Muslims and Iraqis? Kinda hard to reconcile that thought with this thread:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=9236
And when you get done with that, allow me to show you the single best blog thread that I have ever had the pleasure to read:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=9299
Anybody who says that the blog that produced that thread is a hate site is, in my opinion, just nuts.
The Syrians never used American-made bulldozers to raze an entire town.
They used Soviet-made bulldozers.
In 1982, in the town of Hama, Assad killed between 20,000 and 40,000 people using guns, tanks, and cyanide gas.
So to answer your question, Sellam, since when?
Since 1982. (At least)
Way to go ED!! At least you stayed true to form. Never did let the fact in did you? “I know what I know no matter what people tell me to the contrary. It simply doesn’t fit my world view. Facts can be so inconvenient.”
Charles and the LGF minions are a valuable resource. It is the place that will “fact check your ass” and expose the unchallenged, unchecked calliphate desires of the world’s Imans. It exposes the anti-Semetic professors who believe their tenured status gives them impunity no matter what bile they spew. It has become a thorn in side of those in the media who are used to the free pass they have enjoyed without question. The minions are Democrats, Republicans, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Aethiests and yes even Muslims. They are gay, straight, pro-Bush, anti-Bush and many places in between. There are people from all walks of life, income, ethinic groups and countries. So please, the diversity of LGF is it’s strength and hardly “fascist.” If you are concerned about neo-nazis, look to the next Islamic Conference in your area. Chances are, they’ll be some attending as guest speakers (William Baker in particular). Something you can learn about at LGF.
NTropy,
Get up your nose, did I? Don’t worry. Ypu will get over it.
Ed.
I think the anti-LGF posters are hypocrites. They should spend a few weeks hanging around Muslim bullitin boards, reading Arabic language newspapers and such before they denouce LGF.
They should also read the Koran and the various collections of hadiths. Scary stuff!
Half of the supposed slurs on Muslim that were quoted are factual and understatements if anything.
Anyway even if comments on LGF aren’t all worth reading, the links to current news tell a story that we can’t afford to be ignorant of.
“I personally believe that most journalistic opinion is biased towards the proprietor’s views. Let’s face it. It is his business after all and journalists only retain their jobs by complying with the employer’s wishes. People like Murdoch, Conrad Black and the like consider themseves kingmakers and do their utmost to deliver votes to whatever politicians they have in their pockets in return for favours.”
Ed, do you feel the same way if the publisher’s name is Sulzberger, Graham, and or Carroll?
Swamp Woman,
Lack of a college education I guess. I’m just grateful that the proprietor hasn’t banned me so far. Anyway folks, have to be off to work. God bless you all!
Ed.
Tim
Ahh the almost mythical “moderate Muslim”. Yes, a little testy – sorry. There is no mass of moderates. There is no place for them. The moderate Muslim is killed by his “radical” brethren. This leaves the enemy and the indifferent.
Though I’m not Jewish I came to this conclusion the summer of 1972 when, as a 7 year old, I watched Israeli athletes being killed for being Jews. LGF has simply reinforced that belief.
First of all, nobody is asking for conversion, just a little house cleaning.
For the sake of argument, let’s assume I’m wrong. So, who are the radicals, the extremists? House of Saud? The mad mullahs of Iran? The genocidal monsters in Sudan? The gross anti-semites in Malaysia? And what do we do with all of them? And if they’re only a fringe element, how did so many rise to power? I stand by my opinion that Islam is fundamentally flawed. Until it goes through it’s own Protestant Reformation, it stands to be as much an enemy of the West as was Soviet Socialism.
Re: Stephen Schwartz
Gahh! Gimme a link please 🙂 I asked with sincerity but I need to be able to follow, even if it’s here heheh.
This whole vindictive post against LGF is exemplary of the common green-brown alliance tactic: deflection of criticism via character assasination – eg your’e a racist because you dare fascilitate dissent from Lefty groupthink. God forbid that we should feel any sense of self-preservation through the clash of civilizations that we are currently in, or criticize the neo-Thuggee branch of the multi-culti cult.
Those who do not think the civilized world is under attack by a global jihadist ideology enjoying considerable active support among the world’s muslim’s, and HUGE passive support, will probably not understand or like LGF.
Those who do treasure it as a rare beacon of honesty in a desert of masochistically self-blinding Western degeneracy, ruled by the political correctness criterion and its indifference to ugly realities.
The site is not remotely racist, since it concerns itself solely with the precisely targeted criticism of a particular totalitarian and unbelievably violent cultural tendency (the swelling fascist strain within Islam).
Long live LGF!
PS. WoC is also pretty cool, though tending to cuddly naivety.
Tim
I’ve read Schwartz’s The Two Faces of Islam. I was wondering how you know what his opinion is concerning LGF.
Ed.
Just a tad. I don’t mind being ignored, personally. Heck I substitute teach, I’m used to it. I just hate seeing somebody being so willfully stupid.
Athos,
That is a bit too eclectic for me to digest. Got to go.
Ed.
“Saddam was a cream puff and didn’t constitute a threat to anyone. “
Well, Woodman, those 2 million Iraqis he murdered and the 25K a pop for a jihadi might not exactly make him look like a “cream puff.”
” It is, however, diverse, which seems obvious to me. And certainly offshoots/subcategories such as Ibadi Muslims, Bahai’i, Sufis, arguably Sikhs have very different ways of intepreting the political aspects of the Qur’an — a book which, by the way, is written so poetically, can be quite flexibly interpreted.”
Ah, no, not exactly. The Muslims are a diverse lot, however, they all have the same book—the Qur’an. And IF they follow it as Muhammad said to follow it then Islam cannot be interpreted or changed. That is the beauty of the whole scheme.
As to the “poetics,” do you read Arabic? How can you say it can be “flexibly interpreted” when Muslims say it cannot?
“You know that just because some fundamentalist types have declared a war on our civilization doesn’t mean that’s what it is, right? They’re not going to win. That should be obvious. It is therefore up to us to determine the terms of engagement. Democracies don’t do “wars of civilizations” — religions and political religions like fascism do.”
Kori, it’s not just the “fundamentalist types” its the silent MAJORITY who support and fund them. Who do you think funds Islamic terror? Ordinary Muslims with their nickel and dime zakat contributions and heavy financiers and even governments like the Saudis.
We are not doing a “war of civilizations” because there is only one civilization involved and then there are the barbarians we are all trying to defend ourselves against. Islam is a political religion—it is a fascist system!
“the Arab regimes are creaky autocratic entities buckling from political, demographic and economic pressure. They’re not necessarily religious in nature, and not all events occuring there need to be viewed through that lens.”
You know, for someone who has admitted knowing very little about Islam you certainly have some very erroneous opinions about the Arab world. They are not called Islamic states for nothing, Kori. The fear is that when their autocratic rulers meet their demise, as they inevitably must—there will be Islamofascism all over the place. If they all had “democracy” tomorrow the Muslim nations in the Arab world would for the most part vote in extremists.
“There is no need for us to cry The End of the World for Islam to grow up too. Especially when the part of the world we’re really worried about — the Arab world (which is only one part of the Islamic world) — can be engaged on numerous fronts excluding the religious ones. Don’t be so narrow-minded; you’ll never convince them to open up that way.”
Gees, Kori! The Arab world does NOT want to be “engaged.” They want us to leave them alone—but, not stop giving them aid. I am not “narrow minded” I am a realists. The Arabs don’t want to “open up” it is against their very closed, for thousands of years, culture.
“Remember that there are 1.3 billion Muslims out there. It would be pragmatic to not treat them as all the same. It would also be wise to note that if you’re thinking all of them are worthy of destruction, that’s quite a bit of death. Better to learn how to coexist, and evolve towards peace. “
Gees, it must be my lucky day! [roll eyes] I never said they are all “worthy of destruction”! However, they think the rest of the world, the “unbelievers” are worthy of destruction, BECAUSE—it says so in the Qur’an. All Muslims are not terrorists. But, ALL Islamic terrorists are Muslims. And until I see the silent supporters of Islamic terror marching in the streets by the MILLIONS each and every time there is an Islamic atrocity against innocents—I will not believe that they have peace in mind.
“But who is that enemy? Is it Islam? Or the perversion of Islam that many are using to politically oppress or murder with?”
The enemy is Islam. Backward, bigoted 7th century Islam. No question about it. Not only is Islam the enemy of “unbelievers” it is also the enemy of the so-called “moderate” Muslims because they, according to Islam are apostates!
Can you tell us what exactly you think we should be doing with Muslims to “engage” them? I have a few ideas such as cut them all off—Israel included (until she withdraws). I would Isolate Muslims from civilization until they learn to be civilized—which might take a long, long time. But, they do say they want us to leave them alone. What do you want to do?
Kori, have you ever read the Qur’an? Have you ever read the hadith? Have you ever read the sunnah? Have you ever read Bernard Lewis or Robert Spencer or Ibn Warraq or Ali Sina or any number of dozens of scholars who have written on this subject? If not—please— do so!
Lili
NTropy, it is precisely the confusion between Islam and Islamofascism that you express that is so sad. I don’t believe there is any point in me arguing with you about the merits of that opinion (especially since I am interested in going to bed tonight) so let me just say that if you consider Islam the problem, you are dealing with 1.3 billion people — if you desire to destroy their religion as the only way to combat the destruction arising from it, you are either advocating areligiousness or some sort of conversion to another religion. People have shown in history that they need religion. As I mentioned far upthread, it answers questions that we’ve had for ages. (And politics, or military strategy, are different matters.) Those questions won’t go away, and for many in the world, let’s just say the Arab world for now, Islam is all they know of as a source of answers. Religious cultures can be sick — like Christianity in its many forms of Catholicism (and others) were sick — but this is not so much the religion per se, as other phenomena at work — the mixture of politics and religion for example. Poverty, illiteracy, which feed ignorance and therefore sheep mentality… In prosperous nations such as the industrialized West, Japan, others, religion plays a much weaker role because frankly we have such materialistic pursuits as Jeopardy or ski vacations to amuse and distract us, not questions of the soul. Those who have not much to do — think of the unemployed — are much more likely to fall prey to depression, and therefore spiritual salvation, which in many places, is embodied by the local imam, who despite his fiery anti-American rhetoric, offers you some respite. So there are many many factors at work here, not just a deficient religion. It’s Islam that has been perverted. Regardless of the fact that you may think depravity is all that exists in Muslims, and therfore many of your fellow humans on this planet, it is not so. They like us are capable of working wonders with their spirits, minds and bodies, if they’re nurtured to do so, and Islam captures much of that beauty — as the Sufis (and others!) so amply demonstrate. It will take engagement not hate to someday live peacefully together. Never should we glorify the depravity of another — our problems are big enough as it is — to do so is simply to puff up our pride by rendering our challenge into something insurmountable. It is not.
No problem, Ed. It was just your own quote, and a simple question naming some other publishers.
Think of an answer and post it, I read WoC fairly regularly.
Kori:
“They like us are capable of working wonders with their spirits, minds and bodies, if they’re nurtured to do so”
No, it is personal initiative to do something constructive, to do what is right, that is key. America is such a beacon full of examples that if you decide to smartly apply yourself, you can be creative, constructive, add value to society and make a better life for yourself.
“will take engagement not hate to someday live peacefully together.”
Boy, is that an understatement! Yes, let’s live peacefully with the rapists, the murderers and the evil that seeks to and does kill innocents. Sorry, not MY cup of tea. I don’t buy it. It would be nice to turn the other cheek, but I only have two cheeks.
Chris Josephson writes:”I realized, as I read the Islamists’ sites, that they did not want anything we had. They want to take over and reshape our world to be one huge Caliphate. There isn’t anything we can offer to them that would cause them to give up this goal.
Now, it hasn’t been very popular to talk like this among many Liberals. I know, because I rejected my conclusions at first since they went counter to my Liberal world-view. But, I couldn’t deny what I had been reading. It was all spelled out.”
sounds like you’ve been reading something akin to ‘The Protocols of the Elders of Babylon’
Kori:
“Poverty, illiteracy, which feed ignorance and therefore sheep mentality… In prosperous nations such as the industrialized West, Japan, others, religion plays a much weaker role because frankly we have such materialistic pursuits as Jeopardy or ski vacations to amuse and distract us, not questions of the soul.”
Then, why are so many of the so-called “suicide” bombers from (relatively) well-to-do families? The 19 terrorists from 9-11 were also fairly well off. Osama and his henchmen were not beggars. If it isn’t socioeconomic level or race, we’re back to creed once again.
This is A.L.
Another sanction LGF post.
Don’t post them here; thanks.
A.L.
“LGF is Hateful”
I think you’ve been dismissed. Have a nice day.
One, your e-mail address shows up as ‘nobody@littlegreenfootballs.com’ — an obvious forgery.
Gee, it’s so much braver to hide behind a Hotmail account, isn’t it cglasgow@hotmail.com?
It’s not hard to find me…
Two — name the thread this allegedly happened in. I’ve never seen you on LGF, and I go there regularly.
For good reason…after that one posting over a year ago I realized what a pathetic shithole LGF is and wasn’t going to bother wasting my time going back (not that I could anyway since my IP address was banned you see).
I’m only here because a blog entry on antiwar.com led me to this, and I guess I needed to reinforce my belief that some people are really stupid and will believe whatever they read on the internet. In fact, I’m embarassed that I’m even wasting my time responding to you, but it’s a failing of mine. Mea culpa.
Look, you don’t have to take my word for it. LGF stands as a monument to bad taste, flawed analysis, worthless opinion, and shattered pcyhes. I’m happy for the people that find great comfort in participating in that sort of drivel and am glad so many of them congregate in one place. It’ll be easier to track you monkeys down when Americans have decided enough is enough and we start throwing the neocons into psychiatric wards.
Think about this: the righteous cause does not need to be defended from its detractors. It is what it is. This is not to say that LGF is or is not righteous. But what it does say is that all of the me-too LGF defenders who brought their jihad here are no better than the Taliban or Al Qaida. You’re both fanatics, just on different sides of the same coin.
You are not to be pitied. Just shunned.
Kori
Dunno where you thought I was confused 🙂 I’m not in the least. Islam is Islam is Islam. Part of my reply to Tim could just as easily be addressed to you. You may make a distinction but they (and I) do not.
Who said anything about conversion or destruction. Just as Christianity needed a Reformation, so does Islam. That’s assuming of course that it is simply religion. As I and several others have already said though, it’s much, much more than simply a religion.
That’s fine. All well and good except for their fascination with killing infidels. Their credo as put forth in the Koran is Convert, Enslave or Kill.
Then why is it that most of the killing is done by those who are the haves? Why is so much of it espoused by the filthy rich House of Saud and the Mad Mullahs of Iran?
Then why is there no free marketplace for religion in Islamic countries? If religion is indeed the opiate of the masses as you seem to be saying so delicately, why not encourage all religions? Yet Islam cannot compete. You realize of course that conversion of a Muslim to any other religion is punishable by death right? That in Islamic countries having a Bible or wearing a cross is a jailable offense?
Picking nits – in Islam, not in Muslims. Do I believe Muslims are deceived? You betcha! Are some Muslims depraved? Heck yeah, just like some adherents to any religion.
And Sufism isn’t even considered to be Islam by the far more numerous Sunnis and Shiites.
Agreed – just not upon methodology. I say the time for words is over and you don’t. Fair enough 🙂
“It’s Islam that has been perverted.”
WHY do you say such things when you, by your own admission, know little to nothing about Islam, Kori? It is NOT Islam “perverted”! Those Muslims who pick and chose their passages are apostates. Apostasy in Islam is death, Kori. Islam was revealed over a period of 13 years. The latter sura abrogate the former “peace and love” passages. The older Muhammad got the more violent he became because it paid off. He solidified his Islamic empire via conquest and butchery. That is what it says in the Qur’an. The peaceful passages are few and far between. The misanthropic, misogynistic, violent passages are the ones that take precedence.
“and Islam captures much of that beauty — as the Sufis (and others!) so amply demonstrate. “
80% to 90% of Muslims are sunni. The other sects are considered apostates. That is one reason Muslims murder one another.
Please, Kori, go to this site to learn about Islam from Muslims and former Muslims: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/
Your PC way of looking at this thing won’t get us anywhere but killed or worse. The international community has to work together on the Islamofascist problem on many fronts from political to religious to financial to military. But, “making nice” with the terrorists is what we must not do!
More Islamofascist attacks will make that perfectly clear. Appeasement will not work and neither will military attacks alone.
Lili
Sellam Ismail wrote:
“My first (and last) experience contributing to LGF consisted of my responding to a typical string of vitriol regarding the Palestinians. Nothing racist or vengeful or expressing hatred…just pointing out the hypocrisy of the messages being posted. The result? Not only was my message removed, by my IP address was blacklisted, preventing me from posting any follow-up message. Is that your idea of freedom of speech, Charles?”
Yeah, that is just what happened to me too.
For cryin’ out loud Armed Lib, is this the waste receptical for all the cast off flotsam, jetsam and detritous from LGF? So many “me too”s about being banned.
Plenty of fine folks too, don’t get me wrong but WOW! A whole lotta refuse here abouts.
Ismail: tell me the name you posted under. It’s easy to make an accusation like yours, but if you have any courage, you’ll give me the information I need to track down your exact post, so we can all see why you were banned.
Well, being that it was over a year ago and I never bothered returning, plus the fact that all the postings there seem to blend into one big bizarre vitrolic spew, I must admit I cannot provide you with details. But allow me to provide you with an approximation, and maybe this will help you track down my offending comment:
Amorhpous LGF Riot: Palestinians are scum! Those towel-headed A-rabs just blew up another bus in Israel. I want to eat every Palestinian so I can shit them out into my toilet and flush them into the sewer where they belong!!!
Me: Gee, isn’t this a bit harsh?
[Charles Johnson issues BAN directive]
I gotta say, it was the if you have any courage conditional that got me to respond here. Otherwise I would’ve just let this keep you up all night wondering how you could’ve so unfairly banned one person from your little neocon Mecca (something you never do!)
Oh, and this is especially useful for understanding your basic nature:
I’m done. The smear going on here is painfully obvious; out of context quotes, out of context thread titles, outright lies, and a whole lot of willfull blindness. Have fun, kids.
Right, right. And you’re back because you just wanted to read more “out of context quotes” etc. because you get a kick out of it. Right. Or maybe it’s because you feel your ass burning whenever criticism gets posted about you somewhere on the web?
Arguing with you and your ilk is pointless. Truly an exercise in futility. In fact, I’m equally an idiot for having written even this much. I’ll just give in to my crass urgings and finish with this:
You’re a joke.
Just my 2 cents worth. I read LGF every now and then to get news that is otherwise difficult to get in our PC media, not for the comments. In my opinion, only about 10% of the comments offer anything useful and I just scroll down through them to pick out interesting links (I have posted very occasionally). But I can understand why people feel the need to vent on them because it’s frowned upon to tell the truth in the real world (at least in the UK).
For really informative commentary, I recommend Jihad/Dhimmiwatch – there are one or two posters there who really know their stuff.
Charles – keep up the good work, you provide an invaluable service, and I will donate soon (I keep meaning to and feel guilty that I haven’t yet!).
Sellam Ismail
You are full of crap and you know it. Not necesarilly about the LGF response – I’ve seen that. I mean about your mild, reasoned response to them. Nobody – NOBODY – has been banned for that. I’ve been posting there for a long time now and I’ve seen what it takes.
Takes one to know one and apparently you know them all. While Charles is no joke, at least jokes are funny. You are simply pathetic and worthless -the effluvium of which I spoke a post or two earlier. Bitter that somebody won’t listen to you and your pathetic blatherings.
Sellam Ismail:
I call bullshit. Getting banned from LGF takes some doing. You have to spew some really hateful bile to do it in one or two posts. I have disagreed with Charles directly and the idea that I would be banned for stating my opinion never even occurred to me or, I believe, Charles. We have had frequent posters (and have at least one now) who regularly disagreed with Charles and most everyone else and were regularly abusive when they did so and, yet, were not banned.
I have NEVER seen anyone banned or deleted for posting in a civil and reasoned fashion, no matter what the opinion that they expressed was. I don’t buy your characterization of either your supposed post or the posts that you allegedly replied to.
Oh boy. Such responses. For the record, I am going to bed sometime tonight, and soon, possibly at the end of this post.
Lili,
All religions have “sacred” texts, and human nature as it is, through time and spanning vast amounts of land, offer differing interpretations. It is that way with Christianity, with Buddhism, with Hinduism, and with Islam.
The reason I described the Qur’an as “poetic” and “flexible” with regards to interpretation is because Muslim scholars have translated and illustrated this point to me. If you can illustrate — substantively — otherwise, by all means, please do so (I’ll read it tomorrow).
As for the rest of your remarks, I think they can be summed up with “you are hopelessly ignorant”. That’s not much of an argument, but then perhaps each of your assertions are conclusions of well-reasoned arguments. Again, I would be open to hearing them.
For instance, the assertions that Islam is a “fascist system”, “the Arab world does not want to be engaged” (with a constructive spin on engagement as I meant it), “they want us to leave them alone”, their closed culture is thousands of years old, “the enemy is Islam”, etc. but most important just how cutting them all off, and withdrawing our civilization, will help the situation. If you have to pick just one argument, please address this. Just for your information, “gees, if you don’t even know that, you’re not worth talking to” isn’t going to enlighten me. Do attempt to treat me as someone who is listening to all you have to say.
Max Darkside,
First of all, personal initiative is not natural to being American in that there is nothing natural about being American at all — i.e. you’re not born with it. It follows that personal initiative is bred.
Second of all, we can live peacefully with rapists, murderers and all other delinquents with them safely locked up in jail (as we do in this society) or killed in combat (if that’s the way it is). Hopefully this is your cup of tea and you are not advocating the wholesale murder of anyone who commits a crime, or heaven forbid, is simply accused of commiting a crime.
It will take engagement not hate to someday live peacefully together. We’re as much responsible/free for how we engage as they are. Let the games begin.
SwampWoman,
But again, it’s not just those folks engaged in this war. Do you think if Afghanis were merrily shopping at bloomies for the latest in veil fashions, OBL would have had a home for so long? No, of course not. Terrorism as we’re fighting it right now is socio-economic to a certain extent.
NTropy and Lily again, and others, I don’t have time to reply to all of your posts, sorry…gotta go. Family priorities. Can’t say it’s been a pleasure. Just broadly speaking — I won’t be convinced with mere assertions or orders to read this or that and I’m definitely not visiting LGF anytime soon, so please reply with a tad more substance to back your (similar) claims. Presumably — if true — they are couched in study and thought we can all understand.
I’m afraid I unwittingly (definitely without wit — but I learn) engaged in a hockey match. I’m not interested.
A.L.,
There is a war on. A certain amount of dehumanization is not only normal but probably required to carry on a war.
The really critical point in all this is not how inhuman we are during a war. The point is does our humanity return after hostilities cease.
We won WW2 in the Pacific by being more brutal than the Japanese. By being more brutal than the Germans. The difference with us was tthat we prefered targeted brutality to general brutality. However sometimes in war the blood gets up and atrocities are committed. A sad but normal state of affairs.
The question is do we forget our grudges like America? Or remember and nurture them like the Balkans?
As Sherman pointed out: war is brutality. Innocents are going to get hurt. A lot of them.
If there is a guerilla war citizens of the occupied country are going to be treated badly.
The real test of a civilization does not come until post war. Are you a dhimmi or a citizen?
Thanks for throwing me this softball. But are you sure you want this?
The Syrians never used American-made bulldozers to raze an entire town.
They used Soviet-made bulldozers.
In 1982, in the town of Hama, Assad killed between 20,000 and 40,000 people using guns, tanks, and cyanide gas.
All true (well, except for your numbers, which by all credible accounts are highly inflated, but nonetheless factual in basis).
And this has nothing to do with the original comment (“brutal Syrian occupation of Lebanon”). Your comments are not only a total red herring but contradictory. Why stop there? Why not shed a few more facts? Or would it completely smack that smug look off your face?
Let’s find out…
Assad rolled in the bulldozers to put down an Islamist uprising that threatened to overthrow the secular balance that Syria maintained. Because of this, Syria today is one of the most, if not *the* most, secular Arab nations in the entire Middle East. Was it still a human rights abomination? You’re damn right it was. But then, weigh this against the alternate universe where Syria became another “Islamofacist” state and you tell me which was better, because you certainly can’t have it both ways.
Cry me a river when we do the same to Muqtada al-Sadr’s band of merry men in Iraq. Or is that OK because we’re going to be doing the bull-dozing? Will we be using American or Soviet machinery?
Gee, it’s not so simple when you actually bother to dig deeper than the one line replies, huh?
Hypocrite.
As far as comparing Baathist Syria with “Democratic” (I won’t get started on that myth since this is my last contribution…I’m heading back to antiwar.com, news for sane people) Israel, I’d have to admit on the whole I’d rather be occupied by the Syrians. At least under the Syrians I won’t be caged up in my own village while my water is sucked away into a settlers pool where my olive grove used to be before the IDF razed it with those American made bulldozers. Oh, and my brothers and fathers would not be sitting in an Israeli prison, or worse, dead after being blown to pieces by an “errant” missile fired from a tank or helicopter.
Sorry, LGFers, you can’t ban the facts here. Want more?
B’Tselem
If Americans Knew
Not In My Name
Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel
Ha.
Goodbye.
Little Green Footballs weblog is extremely interesting but I seldom bother with the comments.
I find weblog comments sections are too Usenet like in that they soon deteriorate into drivel after slight contamination from trolls or nutters.
To the folks fro the Lft who still think that calling someone a racist or fascist has any power: You are as deluded as those Congolese rebels who used to smear bullet repelling muti on themselves and then run at machine gun nests.
These invectives have lost their force through abuse and over (unjustified) use.
Regards
Limbic
I’ve stopped by WoC and it’s a good blog, just not my cup of tea. When I first discovered the blogosphere I wandered around literally hundreds of blogs looking for the right fit for me.
I found it in Charles Johnson’s Little Green Footballs. It can be irreverent, profane, enraged, sad, introspective, bawdy, contentious and infinite variations of just about every human emotion or condition there is. It is true that some people occasionally say things like advocating annihilation of a place or a group of people. Usually, when you spend enough time around there, you know and understand the difference between the real haters and those who are using extreme statements to make a point. The latter VASTLY outnumber the former.
It is my internet home. No other place suits me better. I’m anything but a racist or fascist, and I love the sheer audacious intelligence and knowledge I find there. I get angry like most others do from time to time, and have been known to vent like many others. Please don’t mistake that for intolerance or stereotype it as fascist hatred, because it isn’t. Charles doesn’t tolerate the true haters – from either side of the aisle – at his site.
If you post in an arrogant and/or ill-informed manner in a way that suggest that you think you know all about what LGF’ers are like, you have just made a serious mistake at LGF. We don’t let the misinformed or delusional get away with it. We use truth as our sword, and sometimes we can be mean as can be with those who expose their own idiocy. We ARE all about the truth, warts and all.
I don’t wish to say anything negative about WoC, after all, the people from LGF have been allowed to post here without restraint. But I have seen as much disinformation on this thread as I get in a week at LGF, where I will be returning shortly.
While I’m not nearly a fanatical poster over there, there are legions like me who generally advocate for more moderate positions, and aren’t afraid to call out extremists for their positions.
Here’s my last thread posting over at LGF from last night:
Don’t see any hate there? Didn’t think so. But like most regulars at LGF, I won’t hesitate to call out those who I believe are out of line.
I’m stunned by some of the hatred I’m seeing here. Those of you who are bashing LGF: did you protest the Taliban as vehemently? the Saudi regime? If we bash fundmentalist Islam, it’s because fundamentalist Islam deserves to be bashed. Or haven’t you tried living under it?
LGF is Charles Johnson’s way of shining a light in some of the darkest, slimiest corners on this planet. He alerts us to facts—provable, objective, well-sourced facts. I don’t think the comments are the real issue here. If a few people post obnoxious things at LGF, so what? If Charles doesn’t slap them, the LGF regulars will. No, what’s really bothering some people here is that Charles holds up to the light certain facts that they would much prefer remain in the dark. (And I strongly question why they would prefer it that way: do they choose not to realize what’s going on in the world or do they, too, feel we should all be living under sharia?)
It is utterly ridiculous to call LGF racist—a term which, like patriotism, seems lately to be the last refuge of scoundrels. The only complaint I can possibly have about LGF is that the facts cited there depress me sometimes. But mostly they make me grateful to be a citizen of the USA and Israel. My body is intact, I can feel the free sunlight and air on my face, I can train for and enter any profession I choose provided I work hard and prove my worth. I can attend any synagogue or church in the country that I wish. (But not a mosque.) I can criticize either of my governments as openly and forcefully as I wish and even work to replace them without fear of reprisal. I can choose my own religious beliefs. Could any of us do that in the regimes Charles exposes on his site? We should be bashing the origins of the darkness, not the torch that counters it.
A hearty Hebrew kol ha-kavod to Charles. If his detractors aren’t willing to take a good, hard look at what’s going on around us, they can just crawl back into their holes.
My 2 cents as a frequent reader and less frequent commenter of LGF.
Though I’ve probably always posted dissenting comments on LGF’s threads I’ve never been banned, nor been threatened of being banned. Now, I’ve been called a troll numerous times, and an antisemite a couple of times (I’m french, so suspected a priori of being one by some readers…).
I’ll agree on the quality of Charles Johnson’s work. But I’ll also say, in Gabriel Gonzales words that the tone, the feeding of the frenzied mob backstage, the double standard for anti-Muslim hatred versus anti-semitism, etc. is just too much for me to really appreciate the site. I’ll add that the “sectarian” (I’m french, my choice of word is maybe unapropriate here)feeling of the site, with its faithfull readers praising the great man (see Zulubaby’s or others frequent comments) makes me inconfortable.
LGF is a great source of valuable informations. It’s also a propaganda machine, not just an opiniated site. CJ’s use of slogans (“RoP”, “French/Canadian… Sharia watch”, “paleostinians”, “Arafish”, “Nazimedia”, “Dominique de Villepin (who is a man)”, “idiotarians”, “Corrie St Pancake”…) are typical. So is his obsession with “The Left”, the “other side”, undiscriminated.
That makes sense, if one agree he’s waging a war. But he can’t claim being simply an information provider.
Islam is not the enemy so much as Western Civillizations own naysayers rotting us from within. Consider Jesse Jackson and his famous, “Hey Hey ho ho Western Civ has got to go” chant. The truth is the the western tradition is superior to all other traditions. This is not a rascist thing to say. The western cannon of philosophies, and only the western cannon, is self-critical. Yet, on college campuses, you only hear about the horrors of “colonialism” and such.
Please re-read Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s Harvard Address of 1979
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/solzhenitsyn/harvard1978.html
We are dommed unles we have the spine to make judgements about cultures. Some cultures simply are better than others. If all cultures and worldviews are the same, then on what basis do you judge Nazism?
I really like LGF and Charles.
In my opinion the site never got away from Charles.
It has always been a bastion of free speech and venting about the war and the Islamic fascists.
I started reading LGF shortly after 9/11 through a link on Andrew Sullivan.
In those long ago days most posts got 4 or 5 comments and a real exciting discussion got 20. You could have a conversation there. I remember how amazed some of the regulars (and Charles) were at the first 100 comment thread.
Now a days that is closer to the norm. I rarely comment there any more except on a topic where I really really have to get my $.02 in.
Does LGF get the occasional racist? Yep. And despite its rather pro-Israel stance there was once a rabid Jew hater who posted regularly there who despite my Jewishness I had a good relationship with.
I think it is good to have such a place where even the rabid are tolerably civil and instead of ostracized engaged.
If you really want to eliminate racism and intolerance you are going to have to get in contact with the racists and the intolerant.
Which is why censorship is such a bad idea.
And to Charles in case you check this out. Thank you for what you do evry day. Exposing all that ugliness is more than I could possibly do on a regular basis. And thanks for helping out Roger Simon. And could you please help out Joe here with his url code. It sucks. 🙂
Kori,
You said – “I won’t be convinced with mere assertions or orders to read this or that and I’m definitely not visiting LGF anytime soon, so please reply with a tad more substance to back your (similar) claims.”
With all due respect, what would qualify as a “tad more subtance” that would convince you of another viewpoint?
Sellam – You said – “All true (well, except for your numbers, which by all credible accounts are highly inflated, but nonetheless factual in basis).” – so what are numbers from those credible accounts? Who decides if they are credible?
Don’t hurry, no response is really needed. Your mind is as closed as a mind can be. You see the world as flat and the sun revolves around it – and it is apparent that nothing would convince you otherwise. You only see what you want to believe – and call them the irrefutable facts.
Instead of wondering what the voice of Islam is, just head over to an arab forum, and join in.
You WILL find representaitves of the various schools of Islam. You will find various nationalities.
They will define for you the voice of islam in a way which cannot be described by any westerner.
If you take the trouble to read the seminal philosophies of those within Islam who have brought about the mass murders and the world wide war we now find ourselves compelled to be in, (Sayyid Qutb, M. Qutb his brother, Abdullah Azzam) and a redaction of the the ideas of Ibn Tamiyyah amd Ibn Wahab you will have a clue.
Why listen to any one of say say it is a religion of peace, or derisively ‘religion of peace’?
Visit an arab forum, and JOIN IN. Then you will have a dose of the objective reality you seek.
Why wonder if Mr. Johnson is correct, or a racist?
Expose yourself to the real thing.
I suppose some people, if blogs had existed in 1935, would criticize blogs that criticized the National Socialists as being mean-spirited, or even anti-German.
Is it racist to point out that Islam was started by a prophet who robbed camel caravans for a living before deciding he was Allah’s messenger on Earth? That the “prophet” encouraged the killing of war prisoners, and the taking of widows as sex slaves. That the prophet took a six year old bride. That while the prophet borrowed liberally from elements of Jewish and Christian theology, he also taught his followers to “not take friends with the Jews and the Christians, for they are friends of each other”, that his followers were to “make war on the unbelievers until they proclaimed there is no god but Allah or submit to paying the jizya (tax) as a sign of humiliation. Is it racist to point out that the prophet said it takes four women to equal the testimony of one man, or that the prophet taught that Hell is full of woman?
The Law of Moses permitted the stoning of woman caught committing adultery, but does anyone know of a woman stoned by the Jews in the last two millenia? The Christians in Spain drove out the Jews or forced them to convert under pain of torture. Bad enough, but that was 500 years ago. Can anyone tell me of violence of a similar scale done recently in the name of Christianity (and I don’t think eight abortion clinic workers and doctors killed in the last ten years by lone nuts who were roundly condemned counts)
LGF rules, but some of the comments are OTT: one gripe I have is that there is little self-criticism of the West – and I don’t mean the usual revisionist ballox and lies from the Left, but a genuine look at why maybe Muslims(incl. women) would rather embrace fundamentalism than the West’s culture of crime, pornography, sexual perversions, mediocrity, enervating welfare-statism, dumbing-down, double-standards, decadence, desertion of the Biblical values which made it great in the first place…it is always assumed that Western secular democracy is the be-all and end-all, like only a bunch of backward camel-herders would be opposed to it.
I believe that this complacency is very dangerous, because for all their flaws the Muslims cannot be described as flabby and decadent, and we need to take the log out of our own eye before we attend to the speck that is in our brother’s.
BTW male and female adulterers were condemned to death under the Mosaic law.
Also, did I mention abortion as yet another blatant evil we have here in the West, and which appalls Muslims?
We’ve strayed beyond the fences. Can’t we be good little Academics with a small “a” and state the obvious.
A-1) There are racists that post on LGF.
A-2) There are racists in society.
B-1) There are xenophobics that post on LGF.
B-2) There are xenophobics in society.
C-1) There are fascists that post on LGF.
C-2) There are fascists that in society.
Isn’t it obvious that fault lies with society?
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m guilty of A-1, B-1 and C-1. My emotions get the best of me at times so I pile on the dogpile whether the target is the Saudis, Islamic customs, the Palestinians or the left in general. However, I don’t do this all the time. What I do accept is that in ways that I have changed in my life have been through shock. Like Charles, 9/11 shocked me into my current form. As it has its detractions, shock isn’t without a period of calm. For me that calm continues.
Chew on this. I have to win. I may post a hateful thing about Islam, Muslims or Arabs every now and then, but I hate losing 1000 times more. The rule is this. When I post something hateful I’m admitting that I have lost without saying so. I’m a poor sport, a sorry loser and an ornery brat up front, but underneath I am just a single soul trying to get everyone to blame society.
Join in. Just Say No to Personal Responsibility.
P.S. Lighten up Francis.
“I’m not in the business of shutting people down.
If any of you post on this again, I may elect to ban you.”
The irony there is a sight to behold!
Jan
LGF has devout Christians, devout Jews, secularized Christians, agnostics, atheists, a few Hindus and even a couple of apostate Muslim regulars. LGF has at least four gay posters that I can think of. While I don’t approve of the lifestyle of all the posters, I find that they are some very intelligent people on that site, united by a common fear of a hostile strain of Islam, and those here and abroad that would appease it for fear of being un-PC (or, in the case of the French, because there is good money in dealing with those hostile to Western Civilization)
Jan
I’m pro-life. I feel it is a civil rights issue, but I’m not sure how the majority of Palestinians who in public opinion polls approve of suicide bombing attacks against Israeli buses that kill pregnant woman and their unborn babies have any moral right to condemn the west.
BTW I want to say that thanks to LGF I found WOC.
Joe was commenting on something there and linked to WOC.
As to incivilty, racism, and blood lust. I have exhibited some of that here in the comments. I did the same at LGF. In both places I had people who liked it and others who didn’t.
This here (WOC, LGF) is as close to real world opinion as you are liable to find anywhere on the www.
In a war blood lust is a good thing. Without it we will wind up just another victim of Islam. Too much blood lust is a bad thing. So what is an appropriate amount? YMMV.
The real question is not the war. It is the post war. America loves to raise up those it has beaten down. The movie version with Peter Sellers is “The Mouse That Roared”.
My usual must read blogs are
LGF
Winds of Change
USS Clueless
One Hand Clapping
Michael J. Totten
The Command Post
I also visit on a regular basis
an assortment of Iraqi, Iranian
and just discovered a Saudi Blog
Since LGF is in there I am obviously
one of the “crapheads” (?) someone
was ranting about?
Odd thing is I FOUND Winds of Change
THROUGH LGF
For the record let me say,
I owe LGF is Hateful a debt of gratitude.
I have rarely laughed so hard as I did while
reading his complaint to Hosting Matters, or maybe it was just a fellow travelor of his
Polyezni idioti (useful idiots) often run in
packs.
Thanks dude for letting me see the re-written
version of
Bad Boys-Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do
when they come for you?
Oddly enough that is the second time today
I have run into that song.
The Religious Policeman
A Saudi man’s diary of life in the “Magic Kingdom”, where the Religious Police ensure that everything remains as it was in the Middle Ages
used it too. 😉
http://muttawa.blogspot.com/
If the Imams were really smart (and don’t press me for an opinion on that topic!), then they would counter with a Reality TV show of their own, and beat MBC at its own game. How about “Muttawa!”?
“Ladies and Gentlemen, tonight we go out with the brave men of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, as they patrol the mean streets of downtown Riyadh, looking for transgressors of the Saudi Arabia’s just and enlightened religious laws.” Background music “Sinner, Sinner, what ya’ gonna’ do, what ya’ gonna’ do when they come for you?” The scene is the inside of one of their Suburbans. Saeed explains to the camera that he joined the Muttawa because he wants to help people and harass women. The radio crackles. It’s Prayer Time, and people have been spotted still eating in the Fanily Section of the Food Court in the Kingdom Shopping Center. A squeal of tyres and they’re off. A minute later and they arrive. More squealing of tyres and black smoke. They’re out of the Suburban and up the ramp like Starsky and Hutch, vault the stairs, past MacDonalds and into the screened-off Family Section. Right enough, it’s full of families eating burgers and shawarmas. “Salaah, Salaah!” (Prayertime) they screech, waving their silly little sticks around. All the men slope off to the Prayer Room, all the women cover their faces (try eating a sdhawarma through a veil!), all the children cry. Another victory for Allah! They “Hi-five” each other and swagger out. Young boys watch them enviously – “When I grow up I want to be a Muttawa”. Cue music, “Sinner, Sinner, what ya’ gonna’ do, what ya’ gonna’ do when they come for you?”
*************************************************
Gee your work is cut out for you. This little ditty crops up everywhere! 😉
Seriously I was quite impressed with Annette at Hosting Matters, she gave our boy a lot more time than needed.
http://forums.hostmatters.com/showthread.php?t=11232
“Also, did I mention abortion as yet another blatant evil we have here in the West, and which appalls Muslims?”
They’re not all that keen on bikinis either…
For some reason I dont feel such a strong need to read winds of change ever again. I used to like this site before I knew people who accuse LGF readers (and other people Im sure) of false “racism” were so prevelant here. The comments in LGF are far more rational.
Perhaps I will stumble upon this website a few more times over the years, but I like reading comments sections in blogs most of the time, so its too bad I can’t be bothered to read this site anymore.
Firstly, LGF is not a race hate site as it concentrates on the nature of Islam; a politico-religious ideology whose main thrust is to impose
Islam on the world by stealth, deception or force. No need to take my word for it, just read up the Quran and the Hadiths or visit Muslim web sites. The Barnabus fund also catalogues the persecution of Christians in Islamic nations, a persecution of the Infidel that is mandated by the quran and endemic in the Islamic world.
Secondly, Posters on LGF are from many ethnic backgrounds, many of them Christian Arabs who have had to live under the lash of Islam for centuries.
Now take Jihad for instance. Most moderate Muslims in the West are silent on Jihad as it is mandated in the Quran. Any criticism of the Quran by a Muslim is just not acceptable and will quickly lead to a fatwa, if he was in the West or a speedy beheading if the person was in an Islamic nation. Thus moderate Muslims by their silence on the subject are implicitly supporting the Jihad against the Infidel.
Is there a need that LGF point out the good in the Arab world? I see no reason why this is necessary. LGF spends no time on Hinduism or Buddhism, as both these creeds pose no threat. There is no requirement to say that there are moderates in Hinduism or Buddhism or whatever. No requirement to point out the good aspects of the Hindu or Buddhist world.
What we have, is that Islam by its vary nature and foundation, is a threat to all that is good in Western civilisation, a Universal civilisation as termed by Naipaul. Naipual point out that tens of thousands of temples in India were deliberately destroyed by Islamic invaders. Not content to show their contempt of other faiths, the invaders built mosques on top of the ruins. This is a practise that has continued right through the ages and to the present.
The ideology of Islam needs to be exposed. It cannot be glossed over. Millions of people around the world have to live under the subjugation of Islam and should not be sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.
Do I hate Muslims? No I dont. I think that Muslims are the first victims of Islam. Islam has shut Muslims off from questioning themselves, their world and everything else. It is probably one of the main reasons why little or no innovation has come from that region of the world, once Islam had taken root.
I believe that LGF is one site that is forcing Muslims to examine uncomfortable realities of the nature of their religious texts. This is bound to be a rude and painful awakening. Muslims and Muslim Arabs in particular, have viewed themselves as conquerors, and as such, never had to question themselves.
I really don’t understand what the fuss is all about. Charles provides links and commentary on issues he thinks are important. Some might not like his style, but that’s a different matter. It is pretty obvious he is deeply committed, personally to the issues he is outraged about. So do many of his readers.
Maybe people forgot LGF is a blog which is an outlet to express one’s personal thoughts.
The fact that he is so successful is certainly not something one can hold against him. He worked hard and with talent to achieve what he is today.
I too, don’t agree to some of the comments made by his visitors, but again, If you don’t like it, read something else.
LGF is a great proffessional website who exposes alot of the things going wrong in the world today, and in my opinion one of the must haves news supplements.
Nevertheless it is still a blog.
Why do people, especially from the liberal left, or the appeasers of radical Islam, have such a huge problem with the concept of free speech?
There are many hate sites on the www and Charles’s LGF isn’t one of them!
Read some of the Islamist sites, promoting the coming of the Mahdi and the Khilafa. Then you’ll know what hate is. It’s a genocide against all who don’t believe in Islam.
But, like little sheep being led to the slaughter, many appeasers prefer to suppress the free speech of those who are aware of the threat, are emotionally charged and vociferous against the enemies of democracy and freedom. Thus, they meekly pave the way for the establishment of the Caliphate.
Gabriel Gonzalez
Much of that was gutsy and admirable, and the right thing to do. I think that’s too bad, because I think LGF should get wider respect among balanced people, even if you are always going to get some criticism and charges of bigotry.
If you think that what Charles wants to do with LGF is the right thing to do, but the execution is flawed for whatever shorcomings you perceive, then why don’t you pick up the ball and do it the right way?
The simple fact is that Charles Johnson is doing a tremendous and necessary public service with LGF that nobody else is doing. You are discrediting yourself with your ignorant heckling unless you are willing to do a better job yourself.
After reading this thread, I had a long and impassioned reply all worked up. But Shira beat me to and said exactly what I planned to say (and much more elegantly, as well).
LGF *is* depressing sometimes – not because of the “hate speech” that Charles’ detractors have the luxury of protesting from their comfy homes and dorm rooms, but because of the true hate speech that flows like oil throughout the Middle East and incites the desperate to strap suicide bombs to their chests.
Charles does what few could do; he relentlessly exposes the true hatred and racism of those who are given gentle handling from the mainstream press. What gets reported are not his opinions but very frightening facts that most of us would like to ignore.
Do some of his commenters get out of line? Sure. But 99% of his commenters are thoughtful, astonishingly well-informed, and not about to be a slave to the politically-correct idea that all cultures and religions are equal, even when one of them is obviously intent on murdering as many Jews and Americans as possible.
I’m a full-time reader and sporadic commenter on LGF – a baby lizardoid minion, if you will – and I just sent another donation via Charles’ Amazon tip jar. It’s something I should do more often, and threads like this remind me why.
LGF is one of the few weblogs that I have seen that shows the true nature of Islam and its demands to the planet for death and submissions by all that do not believe. There can be some bile on it but at the base it tells the truth on what Islam has planned against non-believers, women and minorities. It is 7th century Nazism.
As for The Daily Kos and Mr. Zuniga, he deserves all the boycott he can stand because of his treasonous speech towards troops. He is on the enemies side.
That is my defense of Little Green Footballs weblog.
I’m a little late around here, but I feel I should comment. I used to comment at LGF very frequently, and you could say that I achieved some small amount of blogospheric notoriety there before starting my own blog. I don’t comment as much there anymore — my life got busier, as did Charles’s forums, and I find myself no longer able to keep up with the massive flow of posts.
I can certainly understand how Charles feels about policing something that large, and it’s ridiculous that someone can wade into his blog, dig up some of the most strident comments (a few, out of literally thousands), and hold them up as an example of LGF racism. Fans of Indymedia, DU, or Kos are really not in a position to throw such accusations at Charles.
The tone of a lot of LGF criticism in this conversation, though, seems to run along the lines of Charles selectively highlighting the worst of the Muslim world — that he is not, to use the famous catchphrase, fair and balanced. I’ll fully concede this, and I doubt Charles will make too much of an argument, but what’s the point? LGF is not CNN, Reuters, or the BBC — it’s not his job to provide balance, and he doesn’t pretend to. The task of LGF pretty much ever since 9/11 has been to expose the dark side of Islam, which our own mainstream sources — from the New York Times, to that disgusting Arab apologist Juan Cole, to the BBC, to even President Bush — were so at pains to whitewash and present as a “Religion of Peace.”
Think of how moronic this notion is: that a religion of 1.2 billion people can be “of” anything. And yet every mainstream source seemed to fall all over itself to present the view ingrained in every “good” American since grade school: all people and nations are essentially the same, and followers of bad, murderous ideas make up only a small proportion of the population. It’s a view so pervasive, to challenge it even slightly is to invite these spurious accusations of “racism,” “white supremacy,” etc. Appeals to consequences and examples of the Holocaust inevitably follow, the implication being obvious: this kind of thinking leads to genocide.
Well, maybe and maybe not, but there is no disputing the difference: the German propaganda against Jews, so eagerly aped at “progressive” forums like Indymedia, was completely made-up bull-crud, whereas evidence of Islamic terrorism and intolerance towards other societies is all too apparent. This doesn’t automatically lead to the conclusion that Muslims must be cleansed from the earth (God forbid we ever reach that stage), but it is valid to observe that Islam seems to inspire an appalling amount of violence, including honor killings in locations as culturally diverse as Nigeria, Turkey, and Jordan; promote intolerance at the highest, most mainstream levels, from Mecca sermons to hate-spew at Grand Mosques, to full-on Judo- and Westerner-phobia by a secular President at the OIC. This is hardly the stuff of Protocols of the Elders of Zion or Der Sturmer: this is the public face that the Muslim mainstream chooses to show the world, in English and in living color on satellite TV, cable news networks, and their own web sites.
It is the job of CNN, the BBC, the New York Times, our academe, and western governments to acknowledge this, discuss it openly, and see what can be done about it. And yet, paralyzed by pre-conceived notions of what discussion is and isn’t proper, they consistenly refuse to give it even bare acknowledgement, reporting on the most superficial, white-washed level. This is where Charles comes in, digging through news and primary sources to paint a different picture — one that isn’t nearly as idyllic as the “progressive” set would have us believe. His coverage is not balanced, not out of hatred, but out of sheer necessity brought about by our own perceptions of Islam and Muslims not being balanced, instead skewing heavily towards the view that Islamic societies are “just like” ours, where most people just want to live in peace and have no beef with us infidels. Maybe this is true, maybe it’s not — but it’s absurd to simply jump to the conclusion based on fifth-grade notions of “we are the world,” and ignore all evidence to the contrary. Sites like LGF and Memri work to ensure that the contrary evidence is not ignored, that we do realize the differences in rhetoric between, say, the Pope’s Mass and the Ramadan prayers in Mecca (hint: only one of these calls for God to smite large numbers of people).
Charles doesn’t have the bully pulpit of the President, the brand and reach of CNN and BBC, the academic credentials, funding, and tenure of Juan Cole or Edward Said, or the (Saudi) funding of CAIR. What he does have is a lot of talent, dedication, the mind of an incredibly sharp and critical newsreader, impeccable research, unmatched web-design skills, and the bravery and integrity to take pro-Islamic trope head-on. It’s not surprising that many who prefer non-confrontation, accommodation, and downright appeasement would find his boat-rocking and bell-ringing a threat, and would prefer to shut him up. They use their preferred methods — the radical Islamists threats of death and torture, the Left-wing thought police accusations of “racism” and “fascism” — all because Johnson refuses to play along with the notion that Islam and the West must be equal, and any beef between the two is the result of those stupid cowboy Zionist Americans not being “sensitive” to the “sophisticated subtleties” of guys who refer to Jews as “sons of pigs and monkeys.” Charles should feel extremely proud of this criticism: it means his work is getting results, and upsetting exactly the right people. Good for him!
I should wrap this up, so I’ll say this: overly strident commenters or not, I have found Charles’s site immensely educational. Prior to visiting it, I (like, I’m sure, many good, educated Westerners) held the “proper” opinion that Muslim terrorists are a small band of extremists with little support among Arab governments or society; LGF, through its exposés of Arab bigotries and the exceedingly rare Arab self-criticism quickly made me question and re-think that notion. Like every other site with an editorial bend (Rottweiler, Sawicky, Kos, etc.), LGF attracts its fair number of small-minded partisans, but in the end, it presents a coherent, well-researched, engaging and sometimes enraging viewpoint. LGF made me question my beliefs, re-think my assumptions, and broaden my horizons — which is the highest compliment I could pay to any blogger.
I just want to point out that many of the offensive remarks — indeed the most offensive — on LGF are planted by folks who want CJ’s site to look racist, so they can carry on their smear campaign, I suppose. Just the other day Charles found several blatantly offensive comments on a number of threads, all under a different *anonymous* user name but traced to a single IP address. (He addressed it in a post.)
Just food for thought.
I read both LGF and this blog on a daily basis and I don’t find them incompatible. Charles has a point of view on Islam and terrorism that I find interesting, if a bit bleak and depressing. This blog has a wonderful mix of writers that are thoughtful and interesting that I find more to my liking, but sadly more optimistic than I personally feel about terror. I do enjoy the comments section here more then the LGF comments, but that is because there seems more diverse and thoughtful debate here.
The blogsphere is all about variety and an escape for the reliance of “the mainstream media” (whatever that is). Are there morons, wingnuts, moonbats, etc on Charles’ site? Yep… Are they also here? Yep… are they at Kos’ site? Yep, there too… People need to lighten up and remember the LFG prayer:
Lord, grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls the courage to debate with honest opponents, and the wisdom to know the difference.
BTW: Reading both of these blogs (as well as many others) is what made me decide to start my (obscure) blogging of reading the Qur’an for myself. Qur’an Project
…wow…
Any popcorn left?
This is unbelievable. Please, before any of you `progressive’ blather on about Green Footballs and its alleged `hatefulness’, `racism’, etc (haven’t you got any better examples, people, really? For a site that is supposedly full of `muck’, where are the damning quotes?), visit any Indymedia site, or the Democratic Underground, or the Daily Kos, or Antiwar.com. THAT’S where the real hate and racism is found…
I haven’t bothered to read the entire string of comments here, but from the opening salvo it’s clear that many commentators are targeting LGF. As Kori writes in one hyperbolic screed, “It truly ruined my day when I visited there.”
I read LGF regularly and, in contrast, I am thankful, yes, thankful for the service provided. This is one of the best “vertical market” sites for news and commentary. His exposé on biases in reporting on Iraq, the war on terror, and resurgent European and Islamic anti-Semitism is a critical adjunct to the media’s representation of world events.
Thank you, Charles Johnson, for yeoman’s service here!
” Regardless of my bias toward (or against) any blogger, I’m not in the business of shutting people down.”
Bravo.
We may not agree on everything that is said. May we all defend the right to say it.
First!
(Sorry, wrong blog)
FWIW, several people have made the claim that Charles doesn’t show the sunny side of Islam and its cultural accomplishments. Or something like that.
Well, exactly what would that be? What sunny-side news from the Islamic world are you looking for?
I think some of the news that gets posted is ugly. Some of the poster have very ugly thoughts, and were I 3000 Charles Johnsons, I would find the time and methods to ban them and delete the posts. There are a few persistent bigot who aren’t banned yet. But what do you want – a simon-pure blog that has nothing offensive? What would that accomplish? And how would that be done?
Give the level of comments at DU, I think LGF is a huge success. It – in the main – stays on track. There are persistent trolls who seek to derail threads with pointless comments or well-known irrelevancies, but for the most part, they are ignored by the regulars.
And for the persistent, we roll out Mr. Holland’s Opus. What more could you want?
Charles is doing a invaluable service by, as mentioned above a few times, taking an unblinking look at the very real, very immediate danger of militant Islam. Jihadis quite clearly lay out their intentions towards the US/West/Crusaders/Jews etc, and Charles takes them at their word. Jihadis even talk openly about employing the Islamic concept/practise of taqiya – hiding one’s true intentions until it is politically or otherwise feasible to reveal them – and still most people don’t take them for their word. the angry comments on LGF are a direct response to daily (hourly) outrages perpetrated by militant Muslims, and those multitudes that would rationalize them, defend them, or even celebrate them.
If any of you believe LGF is either dangerous or hateful, you have not been exposed to much of the real world. On the grand scale, there is so much more to be concerned about in your own neighborhood than LGF.
If you have so much free time that you can be bothered to post here about how awful LGF is, you need to get outside and apply yourself to a problem in your own community that you can actually do something to improve. Raging impotently against people who offend you (and whom you seem incapable of clearly understanding more often than not) is the least useful thing you could be doing right now, because guess what? LGF ain’t going anywhere. Your efforts here an elsewhere have backfired, because this is a manufactured issue.
What we are seeing here is reaction. Kos made a mistake and got called on it, largely by LGF, and now it’s revenge time. I’d say that’s ignoring the point of all this in a major way.
sorry about the post – autorefresh when I logged on this a.m.
🙁
A.L., feel free to delete it (as anything else!), but this time it really doesn’t need to be here.
Two cents:
I’ve been a LFG fan for the last several months, and it’s on my list of daily blogs to visit.
Those complaining about LGF striking down dissidents and deleting comments couldn’t be any further from the truth.
On a daily basis, somebody from the “other” side will show up and offer an opinion. 9 times out of 10 the LFG minions will indeed rip into him and fact-check his ass. Those leaving comments intended to “educate” dissenters have different methods, some abusive, some not. But it is not hard to find the “dissenting” opinions on the site and it’s simply not true that Charles deletes comments just because it doesn’t fit his views.
Certainly comments get deleted and posters get banned, but this is the exception rather than the rule. Only the most vile and hateful comments and/or links find themselves in the recycle bin.
The sunny side of Islam? Didn’t you know that they invented “zero” over a thousand years ago, and that they’ve been inventing it ever since? Also, sometimes the Palestinians don’t lace their jewicide bombs with rat poison.
For a discussion of the LGF attack on my blog see
Under Spam Attack
and
Westchester County High Technology Crimes Bureau.
I love LGF!
Kathryn – I’m confused from quickly glancing at your post; you’re using the term ‘spam’ which typically means that you’re getting unsolicited commercial comments (see MT-Blackhole). From reading, it sound like you have a troll infestation instead.
We’ve already had a little too much interblog warfare, but can I suggest that you put up a quick narrative post on your site to explain?
A.L.
“Sellam Ismail” or whoever’s already been quite thoroughly shut down, but he replied to me, so he gets a reply:
1) Who’s ‘hiding’ behind my Hotmail ‘alias’? Charles Glasgow, aka ‘Chuckg’, aka ‘cglasgow@hotmail.com’, is my real name, and that’s my real email address. It’s the same name and e-mail address and handle I have used everywhere since I got on the damn Internet. It’s what I’m known by on at least half a dozen blogs, RPG forums, book discussion forums, hell, even comic book discussion boards. It’s who I am online and have been for years.
OTOH, ‘nobody@littlegreenfootballs.com’ is not who you are, it’s just who you want to hide behind today.
2) I was on LGF more than a year ago. You know what? Still don’t ever remember seeing you.
3) I have never seen Charles Johnson ban anyone after only one post. You’d have to be the ghost of Adolf Hitler with a modem to the afterlife before you could get yourself zapped that fast. Even the stupidest most hate-filled troll in the world is given a long enough rope with which to hang themselves first… ‘ban on sight’ is not how it goes, and not how it has ever gone.
And especially not just for asking ‘Gee, isn’t this a bit harsh?’ Hell, I posted that same sentiment just a couple of days ago, in a Kerry thread — and yet I remain unbanned.
You are a completely shameless liar. FOAD.
I’m late to the discussion, but I just read through / scanned this whole thing. This much seems clear to me: This entire thread here at WoC is very similar to many at LGF — deeply held, opposing viewpoints; many in depth, well-thought-out remarks; some troller-trash (some of which got deleted by the admin); and most importantly (says me, anyway) an administrator who seems to have a reasonably open mind about fostering discussion, allowing differing ideas, and maintaining some level of civility.
If this thread is representative of WoC (this is my first time here), I plan to come back. I know what’s representative of LGF – I’m a regular lurker and occasional poster there. This thread seems to be of fairly similar quality to what’s at LGF — which is what I look for in a good blog — the bloggers initiation of discussion based on his/her view, usually followed by (mostly intelligent) discussion.
I also look for freedom to disagree — LGF has it. This thread certainly has it. DU does not (I was banned there). DU, to be fair, says they ban dissenters.
Charles – LGF is great!
A.L. – this is a great thread, I appreciate the welcome (to the LGFers), and I will return.
To those making this a great thread (Kori and evariste, in particular, among many others) – thanks for open, honest discussion.
To those trying to shut down LGF – grow up.
Peace out,
Maddog
Sellam Ismail wrote:
You’re a joke.
And you, sir, are a filthy liar. Tell me the name you posted under, or tell me when it was. Liar.
LGF is my kind of place….if the commies think that speaking the truth about the Islamopunks is racist that’s too bad. Sadly, the far left/communist movement conveniently hides behind these racist/nazi slurs yet show no courage when it comes to backing their statements……”mano y mano”.
Kathryn Cramer wrote:
For a discussion of the LGF attack on my blog see…
I have neither advocated nor organized an “LGF attack” on your blog. You wrote something really hateful and now you’re squirming because you were exposed.
Or maybe you thought you could put something like that out on the internet (trying to link one of the murdered, dismembered contractors in Fallujah to a notorious neo-Nazi), and nobody would notice?
And falsely link one of them to a neo-Nazi, at that — when 5-10 minutes of Googling would’ve let her know that no, the two Michael Teagues were not the same guy.
I am probably one of the more “hateful”, but occasional posters at LGF. I consistently use the term “5th column” for the American media, for I have seen the consistent bias and dishonesty within that establishment. I refer to Democrats as “dhimmicrats”, because I see that Party as willing to eschew national security to secure a voting block I consider to be anti-American at the least. I personally insult posters at LGF (which goes against Charles’s “troll prayer”) when they parrot a propaganda piece over and over without responding to argument.
Because I use that forum to express MY viewpoint, is Charles responsible for my words?
If he WERE to ban everything within the comments which didn’t conform 100% to his view of life, then it wouldn’t make much sense to open discussion at all, now would it?
Remember there is a good deal of subjectivity (according to the ultra-tolerant, at least) in how one views speech. Take the statement that “X % of terrorist attacks are commited by Muslims”. Is that in itself, a racist statement? Despite the fact that X can be defined and verified, and that there can disagreement about the definition, I would say the statement itself is not racist. But there will always be those that will say yes, that is a racist statement. Do we then stop making statements of fact to avoid offending people?
Or is easier for some people to make accusations of racism then to provide rational argument?
I’ve been an LGF reader and poster for over a year. I have never advocated violence against innocent civilians. For from being a fascist or white supremacist, I have spent my life fighting white supremacists and crypto white supremacists(including sometimes in my own extended family).
I believe that we are in a global war against Islamofascists and that Charles’ site is one of the few places on earth where these issues are addressed head on, without mincing words. I believe that we need to defend our civilization against the medievil death cult which is embodied not just by Al Qaeda, but by the Iranian mullahcracy and the Qusay/Oday culture in Iraq.
I want freedom, democracy and prosperity for the vast Arab and Muslim world. I believe that the vast majority of Arabs and Muslims want peace and prosperity, but because they live under terrorist, dictatorial regimes, they cannot express their true views or they will be instantly murdered. No different from Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia.
Just as the west, led by America and England, defeated the Nazis and the Communists, so we will defeat the Islamofascists. In the meantime, passions will often run high. Occasionally there are hysterical posts on LGF – usually posted in the heat of passion and often moderated by subsequent posts – but generally I find the tone of commentary on LGF far more reasonable than what I read on many supposedly “mainstream” leftist sites. Once the war is won, people will look back on LGF as a visionary site. I am proud to have been a small participant in this web phenomenon.
Sergio Arana
Brooklyn, New York
April 2004
Corporal: The people that make accusations of racisim do so because they have NO rational argument, not because its easier. (IMO)
I thank God for Charles Johnson. He’s courageous and honest, and those always spell trouble. There are many of us who literally fear for our and our families’ lives in this increasingly Islamofascist world, and LGF is one of the few forums in the world for fighting this enveloping hate.
LGF does indeed allow posters to vent thier spleen. Sorry if you “sensitive, compassionate, nuancy liberals” find it distasteful.
The fact is that the majority of the distasteful invective is spewed by the P.C. Brownshirts who predominate on the blogoshpere.
Your right to pontificate, dab your hankies and demonize all who disagree with you is directly related to our right to rail against the evil and depravity of Islam and of the Left.
I find it disingenuous that any and all accusations of “racism / hate speech” are treated as “gospel” while the fascist mau-mau-ing of lefties is somehow off-limits to criticism.
LGF provides a forum for the goring of sacred cows. Just because they are your cows dosen’t illegitimize the “gore-ers.”
When lefties genuinely leave disavow cheap polemicism, demagoguery and flat-out mendacity as political tools, they might be taken seriously again. Until then, sh*t in your own fishbowl, OK?
“I believe that we are in a global war against Islamofascists and that Charles’ site is one of the few places on earth where these issues are addressed head on, without mincing words.”
My thoughts, exactly, Sergio.
And Charles,
As my father used to say,
“Illegitmae non carborundum.”
Continue to fight the good fight…
I’m an avid reader of LGF and have even posted a few times as “kalmia.” I don’t know when I have ever read a more feeling and compassionate writer/blogger than Charles Johnson. He reminds me of Jonathan Swift, whose self-composed epitaph read “He is gone where savage indignation no longer lacerates the breast. Indignation of man’s inhumanity to man.” In my opinion, this is where Charles is coming from.
In my opinion LGF serves one of the most important tasks in our current war on terror:
Exposing what the Arab media and the “religious leaders” of the Muslim world are actually saying to their followers. His weekly excerpts from sermons should be required reading for people making comments on Islam in general and the war in particular.
I suspect he would much rather be blogging on music and bikes, however since 9/11 he has acquired knowledge and has decided to both his credit pain to spread this knowledge.
I don’t know if you could call him thin skinned or not I’ve never met the man and only exchanged e-mails with him once almost two years ago over a trifling matter, however it is not my business. He provides the web space and the comment space, I choose to participate and I very happily make LGF a daily stop in my quest to be informed and entertained.
I think actually the problem is that like Glenn Reynolds comments on the PLO a year ago, Charles is speaking and exposing a truth that is uncomfortable to us. That truth offends our western standards and the American instinct for fair play. It is also a truth that those who wish to defeat us (and by us I mean America not Bush) both at home and abroad would like to deny.
It is truth despite all that and we ignore it at our own risk.
If people think the comments are out of line then I suggest not clicking on the comment links and just read the base articles. You will miss out on a lot of good give and take, (and some rubbish but you will get that on any blogs comment section) but that is the simple solution because the info provided is in my opinion worthy of at least a daily visit.
(worthy of a daily visit is a good description of winds of change as well)
If it weren’t for the commenting community at LGF, I would not have come into contact with Joe, and would not have been invited to contribute on Winds of Change. I go to LGF for the excellent news sources, and think that Charles provides a valuable contribution to the community. There are plenty of comments on LGF discussion threads that I don’t like, but they’re rarely by regulars, and the regular commenters here, like iowahawk, evariste, Right Wing Conspirator, e.nough, and a slough of others, make LGF that much better. To those who claim that LGF posts racist material, I have this to say:
It is not racist to tell the truth. The truth may be unpleasant, but reporting the ugly actions of another group isn’t racist, and Charles isn’t making stuff up. If you wanna argue that the actions Charles reports are perpetrated by only a tiny fragment of muslims, I wish you the best of luck, but claiming that Charles’ reporting isn’t “balanced” is a far cry from calling it racist.
Nuke Mecca?
I have actually posted such a comment more than once over at LGF.
Some times I meant it literally. Some times I was joking. Some times it was in the context of what would it take to get Moslems to change their beliefs.
The Mullahs in charge of Iran have advocated nuking Israel. They have a much better chance of carrying out their threat or conjecture than I ever will.
So I say how about a little perspective?
The enemies of the West are talking about nuking the West. Why can’t we have a similar discussion about what we should do with our enemies?
Why can’t we say nuke mecca instead of fuck the bastards?
A lot of the nuke mecca discussion was whether it might be necessary to commit genocide to stop the Islamic fascists or whether Nuke Mecca was sufficient. Given the choice I prefer the Nuke Mecca option. Killing ideas (with minimal loss of life) is preferable to genocide. YMMV
I still favor cloudy mushroom soup for breakfast, lunch, and supper if it becomes a question of them or us.
My prefrence: “Why can’t we all just get along?”
Kori:
Re: the skunk. I found your response, but I don’t think you’ve really engaged the skunk at all. What you’ve done instead is evade the issue by raising the distinction between Islamic politics and the Islamic religion, and accuse your opponents of confusing the two.
Let me point out to you a couple of things. The Islamic religion ITSELF DOES NOT DISTINGUISH between religion and politics. Are you familiar with the Islamic practice of Sharia law? In this system, the Islamic code of ethics is woven tightly into the societal fabric, including government. Are you aware that the system of government in Iran at present is properly called a theocracy?
Exactly who is mixing religion and politics here?
Now that we have that out of the way, please answer A.L.’s original question, and quit avoiding the 800-lb skunk in the room.
I am also very curious to hear your reaction to the Lance Morrow piece I quoted, which raises a very interesting question about just why human nature has equipped us all with a weapon called hatred.
Hatred itself is not the problem here, but misdirected hatred is. LGF has no quarrel with responsible and reasonable people, of whatever religion. The problem is that there is a dark ugliness coming from a great many Islamic clerics (and politicians, but what’s the difference?) and Charles is absolutely right to drag this out into the sunlight where all can see it for what it is.
If people then hate what they see…GOOD. That is useful hatred.
Think of what goes on at LGF as bayonet drill for the mind.
As an occassional poster to LGF for around two years or so I find it to be the most informative sight on the web that deals with Islam. There are some posters that cross the line and I have even asked Charles to ban one of the worst antimuslim posters.
The sad thing is that LGF should just be a blog about some computer geek who loves bikes like it was before 9/11. But the mainstream news media does not even try publish all the information that LGF posts. Most of what you see posted on LGF is newsworthy enough that other professional news organizations should be the ones publicizing it. With all of the vast news gathering resources at the disposal of institutions like the NY Times, CNN, the network news stations, and other major media outlets you think they could at least bother to check what imans are saying in mosques in muslim holy cities or to read the speaches given by muslim political leaders. Even pro war on terror news groups like Fox News and the WSJ do not bother to systematically report the stuff that Charles pulls from the AP and MEMRI. Charles started out as an amateur with some help from his commentors and now provides more in depth and accurate coverage of the problems in the muslim world than any other source I have seen.
Since Kathryn has banned me from the comments section on her blog, let me state here publicly what I did to get banned:
I posted a comment saying that I was outraged at her remarks concerning Mr. Teague (RIP), and linked to an article in his hometown newspaper containing his obituary.
The post was subsequently deleted and I was banned.
Why can’t we say nuke mecca instead of fuck the bastards?
Why can’t we say “screw mercs?”
M. Simon, I believe I once posted on LGF something to the effect that we should not nuke mecca, but we should get our enemies to think that we might nuke mecca if they nuke us first. That might prevent any nuking from ever happening! Thus two more “nuke mecca” comments have been added to this blog (Now three! Stop saying Jahovah!)
Charles wrote:
—–
“Nuke Mecca”: 200 matches.
Total # of comments at LGF as of this writing: 648,157
Percentage of comments containing “nuke Mecca”: 0.0003 %.
—–
LOL. And about half of those comments containing “nuke mecca” are actually complaining about the “nuke mecca” contingent!
Charles – you’re being demeaned by a bunch of uninformed, spiteful asshats who don’t know the first thing about the terrible secret of LFG.
(And Kathryn Cramer is a psycho …)
Lili,
Thanks for posting and fisking. Saved me a lot of time and I got work to do:-) I confirm that you has done some serious studying and reading.
When it comes to commenting on LGF, those who get hit with a verbal barrage should know that it is a test. If you then answer with clarity, no invective of your own, provide links to back up your position, you will be amazed how quickly the tone changes toward you; especially coming from the regulars. Even if they don’t agree with you any other commentor will be in trouble if they continue with invective. But too many people prefer to be offended and quit. (Or have a defenseless position:-)
Search on the phrases “subhuman” “vermin” or “raghead” on LGF and see what pops up. Basically LGF is “jewwatch.com” only its all about Palestinains and arabs instead of jews. Charles is very carfeul not to make racist comments himself of course, he just posts one-note article about arabs and then eggs his commentators on.
This technique is clever albeit somewhat transparent. Its like the old newspapers put out by the Conservative citizens councils in the 1960s. Every week the subscriber would be treated to dozens upon dozens of stories about negroes raping, negroes killing, negroes doing poorly in school, negroes lowering property values, etc. No actual racist commentary was provided but the cumulative effect of this style of journal was sufficient to make its point.
I have been banned for pointing this out on LGF too, BTW.
As I do not wish to be harassed at work or at home I will not use my real email or URL, however. Way too many kooks are aware of “WHO IS” nowadays!
And another anonymous coward pops up to say he was “banned,” without providing any information to let me find the comment for which it was banned.
If you’re not lying, tell me the name you posted with, so I can find the comment and show everyone WHY you were banned. Or shut up.
“sounds like you’ve been reading something akin to ‘The Protocols of the Elders of Babylon'”
I wish that I could attribute what I’ve read to some racist writings I could dismiss. But, what I’ve read hasn’t been the product of anti-Muslim groups. What I’ve read comes from their own websites.
I didn’t want to believe what I was reading at first. I wished to dismiss it. I realized if I had dismissed what I’d read, I would be a racist.
I had to give the various website authors the same respect as I’d give any other group and believe what they wrote.
To not believe what has been advocated on the Islamists’ websites is to relegate the various site authors/posters to the status of children. (Children don’t really mean what they say or don’t understand the implications of their statements.)
I believe the Islamists are sincere, intelligent people who truly believe they must remove all socities that don’t conform to the Quaran. I also believe them when they say there isn’t anything we could give to them, negotiate with them, that would make them give up their goal.
I can’t understand why people, who go to these sites, and read what has been posted, refuse to believe they mean what they say.
When I use the term Islamists, I mean radical, fundamental Muslims. Not ALL Muslims. As a matter of fact, Muslims are in as much danger as the rest of us who don’t agree with the Islamists. Look what the Islamists did to the Muslim Afghanies. The Muslims in Afghanistan weren’t fundamental enough for the Islamists. The Muslims in Afghanistan suffered a lot under the rule of the Islamists.
You can discount what the Islamists’ say. It doesn’t make a difference what any of us believe, what makes the difference is what *they* believe and how they’ll take actions based on their beliefs.
Senior Admin Official:
(referencing another poster) Why can’t we say nuke mecca instead of fuck the bastards?
(SAO’s response) Why can’t we say “screw mercs?”
You can. You also have to be prepared to be criticized for it.
Four human beings were murdered and butchered in the streets of Fallujah.
“Mercs” or not, these are human beings who have suffered a gruesome and disgusting death at the hands of scum. Saying “screw mercs” is extremely hateful toward the dead and their families.
“Nuke Mecca”, while insensitive, is NOT being said in reference to actual human beings who have been butchered. It is a fantasy promoted by a very small segment of the population who have a problem with their knee-jerk reactions.
And by the way: what evidence do you have that these people were “mercenaries”?
Ah, this is just funny.
I’m an LGF fan myself. Why, you ask, even though I disagree with much that is said there? Simple. Because unlike a lot of leftie blogs, LGF is a place where Charles and his readers aren’t afraid to say what they feel; Lefties feel compelled to always couch their words; that’s innately untruthful. I’ll take an unpleasant truth over a sweet lie any day of the week. I can take 99% of what charles says at face value, he’s honest about his feelings and opinions. The same can’t be said for his opponents, who couch their language and words to be “PC” I sight the liberal about face after the shock of 9/11 wore off; suddenly, people like Kerry are not only fighting Bush, they’re fighting their own voting records!! That screams ‘opportunism’, ‘lack of integrity’, and a host of other phrases that hardly lend confidence in their leadership qualities. The PC crowd may be comfortable changing its views to please people, but I’m not. Because it shows a lack of integrity. Charles has shown that he has that value, and that alone makes him worth listening too.
“Saying things that in spirit amount to “kill all subhuman arabs” is not “blowing off steam”
[…]
So look in the mirror, LGF people”
Nice of you to put “LGF people” into the same box. Surely you realize that anyone with half a brain cell can make comments on the internet.
Did Charles make that comment? Does he not link to news stories from legitimate sources, or does he make it all up? He has a right to his commentary, and I have yet to see him focus on anything other than the terrorist element of islam and it’s supporters.
I’m sure most people here and at LGF have the sense to realize that:
All muslims are not Arabs
All Arabs are not Muslims
All Muslims are not murdering terrorists
All murdering terrorists are not Muslims
Muslim terrorists have been black, white, arab and asian, to ascribe “race” to the problem is to ignore facts.
To ignore Islam as a factor for Muslims who are terrorists is also to ignore facts.
FWIW, I am neither white, rich or male, and I do not like overly-PC people defending “brown folks” from deserved criticism, it helps no one.
Who reads LGF, by the way? The level of debate there is so irredeemably juvenile that I wonder who these people are that actually read that blog.
To wit:
If you’re not lying, tell me the name you posted with, so I can find the comment and show everyone WHY you were banned. Or shut up.
So, Banned, what you’re saying is that Charles posts articles reporting crimes, atrocities, oppression and hypocrisy committed by Islamists, and the effect is to make people wary of radical Islam and those that undermine our efforts to combat it.
I can see why you’re upset. FYI, however,radical Islam is not a race. It’s a totalitarian political movement.
I find it ironic that you lefties have such an affinity for it.
“…he just posts one-note article about arabs and then eggs his commentators on…yadda yadda”
With regards to Jerry Falwell’s controversial comments about Islam on “60 minutes” (when he called Muhammad a “terrorist”), a so-called “liberal” friend of mine suggested he be jailed for “inciting violence”!
Falwell is not one of my favorite people (by a longshot), but as far as I know, he never recommended that Muslims be killed or hurt.
He attacked an ideology and its founder, nothing more.
The violence that erupted in India after the show was aired is much more a reflection on the nature of the ideology than the outrageousness of Falwell’s comments.
Using this same criteria for Christians, John Lennon should have been imprisoned in the 1960’s for claiming the Beatles were “The biggest thing since Jesus Christ.”
Or what about that “artiste” who exhibited a “painting” of the virgin Mary in New York composed of human faeces?
The fact that the only “violence” these people provoked was the burning of Beatles records and an old man defacing the “masterpiece” is besides the point.
In effect, it is extreme hypocrisy when so-called liberals prevent criticism of a culture/ideology that is so ANTI-LIBERAL.
Reformation is a painful process, and the Arab/Muslim community is long overdue for some serious soul-searching.
C’mon liberals, stop coddling them. Let them enjoy the priviledges of no-holds-barred debate that true liberals so much take for granted.
Gabriel Gonzalez:
I admire and enjoy your commentary on various sites and your occasional blog postings here, so I must say I’m hugely disappointed with your conduct in this thread.
First. It is you who opened the pandora’s box of “hate speech”. Surely you know that the existence or non-existence and legal viability or lack therof of the concept of “hate speech” is, in and of itself, a contentious issue. I personally believe that calling something a “hate (fill in the blank)” is generally a bullying tactic, meant to automatically invalidate something and inflame PC sensibilities against it without having the decency to present an argument as to what’s wrong with it. Surely, you know the way such concepts are abused to shout down unpopular speech in, for instance, US college campuses, and have first-hand experiences with it in France? Yet you cavalierly invoke the “hate” appelation, and surely enough an anti-LGF mau mauing campaign begins, and has now extended to a campaign to have Hosting Matters drop him. And, I might add, you do this, without one single specific example or link to any comment that you find to be “hate speech”.
Second, you whinge about getting banned for writing a comment which pretty directly implies that the majority of commenters at Charles’s site are neo-nazis. Wouldn’t you expect to get banned for saying something like that? If you meant something different than that then you should have been more careful with your language.
Third, you still seem to persist in some bizarre fantasy that some significant portion of LGF commenters are in fact neo-nazis. Please tell me Gabriel, how many is it? How many white supremacists frequent this pro-Israel site? What are their names and how do you come by this information?
Frankly. I think you owe Charles Johnson an apology.
Kathryn Cramer wrote
“For a discussion of the LGF attack on my blog see…”
Youve got to be kidding Kathryn.
First she does the most gutless thing Ive ever seen by incorrectly stating as fact that someone killed in Fallujah was a neo-nazi etc. while their family still grieves just so she can play politics.
Then when even her own readers recoil from this goulish crap, and the sickness of her mind is reported in the blogosphere, she cries wolf (“The LGF attack on my blog”).
Then she tries to get even more milage from her sickness by linking to it in these comments.
Never miss a chance, ay Kathryn?
What the “Daily Kos” said was pretty pathetic but it was only some idiots opinion.
What you did was beneath contempt.
I pity you.
“The LGF attack on my blog” was people letting you know you are a ghoul, Kathryn.
SAO,
Sure you can say that – the real issue is if you want to say that – are you prepared to accept the heat that may come in return from those who disagree not with your right to make the statement, but with the statement itself.
One of the things about LGF that rarely gets mentioned is that when someone makes a statement in error or beyond the pale and gets called on it – the regulars, the honest posters, will admit their mistake. The willingness to admit that a mistake was made, a harsh statement taken back, and factual error admitted, earns the respect of all.
The ones that refuse to debate, who dismiss the contrary statements and accompanying links, who decline to provide a factual basis for something presented as fact, who refuse to have an open mind for their opinion – these are the ones that seem to have to most trouble at LGF.
Some people just don’t seem to be willing to admit a mistake, or that someone’s viewpoint may be better reasoned, more substantiated by fact, or that in the heat of the moment – they used bad judgment to say something irresponsible.
“A Correspondance”? What is a “correspondance”? Learn to spell, yo.
im purdy happy that charles Johnson banned Boris the Serf
THIS IS A GREAT WAY TO GET PEOPLE TO YOUR SITE! BASH LGF.
Like I’d say at LGF, those who defend Israel defend Free Press, the practive of voting for leaders, an independent judiciary, freedom of religion, etc.
Those who defend Islam defend dictators and autocrats, no freedom of religion, a Press controlled by the threat of violence, killing women because of family honor, sending children to murder and die, and so much more.
LGF posts examples of the above and If some of us regulars who post often use a 4 letter word in times of anguish (news of new arab atrocities), call us what you will.
You may well be the one with an arab master. Not us.
“So, Banned, what you’re saying is that Charles posts articles reporting crimes, atrocities, oppression and hypocrisy committed by Islamists, and the effect is to make people wary of radical Islam and those that undermine our efforts to combat it.”
———————-
“Wary of radical islam” is one thing.
“Let’s just nuke Mecca and cleanse the earth of those subhuman raghead vermin once and for all” is another.
Honestly, I do put LGF in the same category as jewwatch.com or godhatesfags.com. I’m not saying that sites like this should be shut down, just that it is somewhat ingenuous to deny the obvious agendas behind them.
Whether by accident or design, Charles has found a winning formula for his “blog.” Whether that is something to actually be proud of is another story.
I’m a semi-regular poster at LGF.
LGF is one of an increasing number of places you can go to see what is actually going on in the Muslim world.
We are under threat from a group of people who think Muslims should be ruling the world and who can’t countenance the fact that they are in fact the poorest people in the world. This disconnect is fueling the violence against the west and against moderate Muslims.
We are at war and these people want to kill us. Take a look at Ba’at Yeor’s writings and learn about what has happened to Jews and Christians under the rule of Islam. Take a look at how Jews, Christians, women and homosexuals are treated in Muslim-majority countries. Then come talk to me about “hate speech” at LGF.
Do some of the sentiments expressed at LGF bother me? Sometimes. But I have seen a fair number of posts deleted and I also think that a good many of the posts are put there by those who oppose to the use of force by the U.S. in response to the threat of militant Islam or the invasion of Iraq. It’s the equivalent of smearing anyone who appeals to the egalitarian impulse as a communist.
In any event, if I had to choose between the self-hating, anti-American bigots at DU and the people who post at LGF, even those who sometimes cross the line, I’d choose LGF any day of the week.
Unmutual,
Here is a link to a Time.com story indicating that the four people killed in Fallujah were employed by Blackwell and informs you of what Blackwell is:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040412-607775,00.html
“Banned fron LGF” — I’m still waiting for the information needed to find the post that supposedly got you banned. You don’t have to reveal anything personal. Just tell me what name you posted with.
If you’re going to make this accusation, let everyone see why you were banned. Or are you ashamed of what you wrote?
I doubt you were banned at all.
I am a semi-regular to the comment section at LGF and visit it daily for the news articles Charles provides. He does us a great service by exposing our enemies to us often in their own words(vis a vis the Friday hate sermons)
There are some bigots on LGF but that is hardly CJ’s fault. Any and every blog attracts nuts. Some also are a little too quick to label people trolls when they aren’t.
I am a Liberal that was mugged into reality by 9-11. I am still to the left a majority of the LGF posters but I have certainly not been chased from there and have received friendly emails from a few of the other posters.
Kathy Cramer
i think you need some time on a couch talking to a man that looks like Freud. It appears you got caught making a mistake, or a lie, and don’t have the integrity to admit it. You are coming across as a shrill hysterical nut.
For all of you claiming banning, Put Up Or Shut Up. If
I am a semi-regular to the comment section at LGF and visit it daily for the news articles Charles provides. He does us a great service by exposing our enemies to us often in their own words(vis a vis the Friday hate sermons)
There are some bigots on LGF but that is hardly CJ’s fault. Any and every blog attracts nuts. Some also are a little too quick to label people trolls when they aren’t.
I am a Liberal that was mugged into reality by 9-11. I am still to the left a majority of the LGF posters but I have certainly not been chased from there and have received friendly emails from a few of the other posters.
Kathy Cramer
i think you need some time on a couch talking to a man that looks like Freud. It appears you got caught making a mistake, or a lie, and don’t have the integrity to admit it. You are coming across as a shrill hysterical nut.
For all of you claiming banning, Put Up Or Shut Up. If
I am a semi-regular to the comment section at LGF and visit it daily for the news articles Charles provides. He does us a great service by exposing our enemies to us often in their own words(vis a vis the Friday hate sermons)
There are some bigots on LGF but that is hardly CJ’s fault. Any and every blog attracts nuts. Some also are a little too quick to label people trolls when they aren’t.
I am a Liberal that was mugged into reality by 9-11. I am still to the left a majority of the LGF posters but I have certainly not been chased from there and have received friendly emails from a few of the other posters.
Kathy Cramer
i think you need some time on a couch talking to a man that looks like Freud. It appears you got caught making a mistake, or a lie, and don’t have the integrity to admit it. You are coming across as a shrill hysterical nut.
For all of you claiming banning, Put Up Or Shut Up. If
Sorry for the triple posting. New keyboard and mouse!
Maybe the real problem some people have with LFG is that it is politically incorrect in a ridiculously politically correct world.
I notice that no one has discredited a single fact posted there. No. The tactic of the smearers is to quote isolated comments and pretend they are typical. I wouldn’t be the least surprised if the smearers don’t post a hefty proportion of those comments themselves …
Maybe the real problem some people have with LFG is that it is politically incorrect in a ridiculously politically correct world.
I notice that no one has discredited a single fact posted there. No. The tactic of the smearers is to quote isolated comments and pretend they are typical. I wouldn’t be the least surprised if the smearers don’t post a hefty proportion of those comments themselves …
Sorry for the double post. I got a “page not found” when I hit “post” the first time around and figured it hadn’t gotten through…
Eva
Thanks for the info. This information is new to me.
I still find the “screw mercs” comment to be the equivalent of dancing on their graves, but the link helps to make clear where the “merc” comments have been coming from.
Nevertheless, I appreciate the link and the clarification. Too often there are unsupported comments bandied about on the net; doesn’t seem to be the case here.
I am an LGF regular. A “Lizardoid,” if you will.
I am not a Republican, I voted for Clinton twice, and have never used the word “President” with “George W. Bush.”
I am, however, a real Middle East hand, having filed my first story at age eleven following the capture of Adolf Eichman. I’ve lived with Bedouins and listen to harangues in Muslim coffee shops from Istanbul the Lisbon.
And, quite frankly, I have been shocked beyond belief by the astounding level of ignorance, self-deception, forgery and spin that passes for contemporary Middle East coverage. (I once asked a panel of a half dozen leading pro-Arab ME experts to name the Palestinian war leader in 1948, the single towering figure in their history. None could.)
Yes we have to live with Muslims, alas. But we must be aware as long as one person remains alive who believes in a religion that offers a martyr’s paradise, we will never be completely safe.
My doctor is a Muslim, as is my next door neighbor. You m,ight call them moderates because they don’t call for immediate flowing of blood in American streets. But make no bones about it, they believe that they are superior, and that the only just society is one they rule.
Yes I differ from the LGF poster who wants to nuke Meccah. I would prefer to occupy it, and break the Kaabah’s stones, one after another, until the outrages stop.
Amazingly, this is still going on?
Look, the beings that are criticizing Charles as one dimensional in his entries have not spent any time at LGF. Charles is very good at scraping the little sparkly bits of hope out of whatever Pandora’s box of fell horrors is currently open for us.
Second, while I love to read Winds of Change, I don’t post here often. As a mathematician, I find you guys just a tad high-verbal for me. The style at LGF is more like fencing (salut! engage! parry! riposte!) and this style of debate sort of naturally lends itself to epithets and sloganism, and the pace is fierce. Beings that just have a peep are unlikely to discover the true nature of the thread.
For example, a young XY being interrupted a discussion of intra-islamic conflict vis a vis the “lost iman”, the “twelvers”, and the Iranian influence. He pounced onto the thread and declaimed that LGF posters were bloodthirsty, ignorant, trailerdwelling Islam bashers. He derailed the thread and wasted bandwidth, but everyone was perfectly civil to him. Where did he get his intial opinions, which he later acknowledged were wrong? From beings like the anti-LGF posters here, beings that have demonstrated their extreme inability to accept empirical data which is contradictory to their preconcieved mindset.
Whew, that’s enough high-verbal intercourse for me– Joe, A.L., thank you for your courtesy in letting LGF have its say.
My, my, my.
Couple of comments and questions:
Armed Liberal — what’s your opinion now of the job that Charles does of editing the LGF comments?
Kathryn Cramer — do you still think that Michael Teague was the neo-Nazi that you thought he might be?
Charles — LGF is rocking the “comfortable” boat, and people are upset. I doubt that this is news to you, but your site has provided good links for me to think about in the past, and I’ll be back again. I’d comment more often, but it’s too tempting to feed your collection of trolls. You’re doing a good thing over there; thank you.
Armed Liberal — And you are doing a good thing here, although I don’t think I’ve ever commented here before. Thank you, too.
—
I still think that the best way to deal with trolls and hate-mongers, if you have the patience, is to ignore them. What most of them seem to want is attention, and by ignoring them you starve them; they go elsewhere. Editing posts, removing posts, … by giving them attention, just encourages them.
… preferring the riot of freedom to the quiet of the grave …
Hi JC,
Thanks for your response. First let me say that I don’t have a great stake in this discussion, and the fact that it has ballooned to 400 or so comments makes me wary of continuing! I really don’t want to read all of that. But second, let me say thank you for your reply! Briefly…
Yes I am aware of the mixture of Islam and politics, but I am also aware of reformers in the Middle East who wish to separate the two. This is no surprise as the deleterious effects are there for any (intelligent) person to see. I think the best analogy for us, as far as understanding goes, is the Catholic model — politically speaking the religion has lived through a revolution; it is a much weaker version of itself, yet Christianity (and Catholicism) endures. There is no reason for us, examining history, to think/hope/predict an end to Islam.
Islamofascism on the otherhand…
I am of the opinion there is no useful hatred, and although I’m flattered you want me to read the Lance Morrow piece — I’ll try — I may not get to it, and I may not reply here. Too much to do in the world outside of the blogosphere. Hopefully by writing these words, I’ll remember!
Athos,
I don’t know since I’m not the one making the assertions, but the way they are formulated now, they seem like conclusions — it seems like there are certain assumptions educating (Lili‘s?) argument that I either am not getting right away or am unfamiliar with, so I would like them illustrated so I can understand!
“Then to top it off, Zionists with the help of the United States are esconsed in Palestine. Just remember that these the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews from Russia (Marxists), not a drop of Abraham’s blood in any of them. Try being a Hebrew in Israel. You will be treated like a dog.”
So now we know where Ed Woodman is coming from, and how much credibility to give him. I count at least 3 falsehoods/sentence in the above. Would anyone disagree that someone with these sentiments is a troll, and worth banning? (After the regulars made mincemeat of his inaccuracies, of course.)
I’m reading the same fundamental misconception over and over again: LGF-apologists keep stating how dangerous radical Islam is, and that the criticism of Charles is solely for exposing it. That isn’t the thrust of my arguement, nor the reason this thread got started (neither was “banning LGF”).
The arguement started in regard to civility in discourse. A few days back, Marcos Zuniga walked over what both A.L. and I considered to be a serious line when he said “screw them (mercs).” It was a hateful comment that demonized Americans.
Over and over again, I’ve heard Charles and others claim that LGF is not a “PC” area, that its posts and commenters are not politically correct. Armed Liberal has explained to me that not all venues on the web should be conducted in a “civil” manner. I’d agree. But I don’t think it leaves A.L. much room to criticise Marcos Zuniga for his hateful and un-civil remarks.
As to whether Charles is racist, I’ll repeat what I said earlier. He’s not. I think he has an anti-Islamicist agenda which comes very close to a anti-Muslim agenda at times. I think this encourages some of his commenters to be racist. I’d let that off as a coincidence if it wasn’t for his hardline “anti-idiotarian” stance. Charles frequently referes to his political enemies as being part of a “fifth column” or just “on the other side.”
If Charles has this much of a problem existing in a political world with other Americans, I sincerely doubt he’s ready to exist in a world with Muslims he doesn’t agree with. I’ve seen a couple of half-hearted attempts on his part to acknowledge that Islam is not only a religion of “wife-scalping,” or “ignorance,” but its drowned out in a sea of anger and contempt.
Of course, our real enemies on the other side are the ones we should be paying attention to, and Charles’ site brings valuable notice to this, but here’s the question: would someone with a blatantly anti-Muslim bias ever be challenged by what he saw on LGF?
I’ll to point people to this post by Charles,
“Palestinian Taboos.” I’d like to ask people if they find the thrust of this kind of post to be educating or enlightening? Seems more like marshalling hatred to me. Read through the comments, they may be diverse, but are the ugliest of them really that far of a stretch from the obvious contempt of the post itself?
I just read “Palestinian Taboos.” How is this supposed to make me suddenly start hating Muslims? If this is the best you can do, you are really stretching it.
As for the comments, that is irrelevant to charges against Charles.
SAO:
From your behavior here and elsewhere I don’t believe you are arguing in good faith, but I’ll pretend you are and take you up on this.
I looked at the link you supplied and read your assertions about it. First of all, even considered alone your argument is weak. “Seems like marshalling hatred to me”. Well, it “seems like” it to you, good heavens! Can’t have that. This isn’t reason or argumentation. This is purely emotional and subjective. It doesn’t seem like it to me, so where does that leave us? You have no argument other than “it’s a hate site because I say so”. Is this really the best you can do?
The link in question is to a report of a grisly sex crime in the Palestinian territories, a gang rape and murder. Charles questioned Reuters’ assertion that sex crimes are “rare” among Palestinians. This is something an inquisitive mind obviously would question. How the hell does Reuters know this. Are there statistics of these kinds of things kept there? And if there are, given the nature of Arafat’s government are they accurate? So Charle says “Rare?” Where does this judgment come from? Are we supposed to believe that Palestinians are somehow more moral than most humans, and less prone to commit rape and murder?” This is not even to mention the fact [which I will mention now] that murder is obviously accepted and celebrated by many, many Palestinians, as along as it’s of Jews.
Then Charles comments on the Palestinian response to the crime, which seems to smack of lawlessness and mob rule. His conclusion “Such lovely people. Let’s give ’em a state!” is perhaps a bit glib, but certainly not without merit. If this the state of Palestinian society and law enforcement, should we be quick to give them a state? Is it simply impolite to think or say things like this? How in any way is this “marshalling hatred”?
The sunny side of Islam? Didn’t you know that they invented “zero” over a thousand years ago, and that they’ve been inventing it ever since? Also, sometimes the Palestinians don’t lace their jewicide bombs with rat poison.
Posted by: Bob G on April 7, 2004 03:25 PM
************************************************
Sorry Dude they ripped zero as positional notation from the Hindus. 😉
Try again.
PS they DID polish up the form of our
present numeral system, looks a lot
better now give them credit for
artistic improvement of appearance.
Nuke Mecca!!!
(just kidding… just upping the “hate points” for WoC to compete with LGF!)
Kori,
Thanks for the response.
That seems like a fair approach – but for illustrating those points – why would links to other sites / articles be insufficient? Or did I misunderstand your post?
Search results for vermin (834 matches)
e.g. “…How can these vermin have a country? How can these vermin be allowed to live? How can any religion which…”
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=3328 – 101k – Cached – Similar pages
************************
Search results for subhuman (258 matches)
e.g., “… And take your muftis with you, so we’ll have fewer asshole jihadis left to agitate & do the agitating, fuckin’ subhuman, savage, degenerate, filthy, goat …”
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=4916 – 101k –
************************
Search results for subhumans (60 matches)
e.g., “… don’t these subhumans have something constructive to do today–like extreme self mutilation and beating the crap out of themselves because they failed to aide …”
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=6326
***********************
Search results for savages (632 matches)
e.g., “… The muslims are modern-day savages, like open plains indians used to be…”
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=5699 –
*************************
Not very logical.
Leaving aside the simple fact that searching for loaded words tells you absolutely nothing about the context in which those words were used:
Number of comments cited above: 1784
Total number of comments at LGF as of this writing: 649,811
Percentage of comments containing the words cited above: 0.002 %
I don’t have much time so I’ll keep it quick. LGF is one of the best consolidated news sources online. LGF contributors are for the most part truly passionate about the topics they debate and they do so in a highly intelligent manner. There are some who post things which range from hateful to simply outrageous and they are routinely taken to task for it by the other LGFers(including myself)…
I’d like to encourage everyone here to hasn’t done so to read LGF for a week and form their own opinions.
-RaphDaRussian
How many of you want to ban all the Islamic hate sites that call for the murder of Jews? Do you harass their hosts and advertisers to get them banned?
You don’t like Charles and his site then don’t read it. Rather simple. He has a right to run his site the way he does and you have a right not to like it.
The only people who are being fascistic here are those calling for LGF’s banning/shutting down.
You’re not big on context, are you Mr. Spock? Concerning your hand-picked comments (none of them by Charles, btw):
*******************************************
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=3328
{Photo of a young girl}
“This is Gal Aizenman. She was 5 years old when a Palestinian suicide bomber murdered her and her grandmother yesterday at a bus station in Jerusalem.”
Yes, it is true – emotions tend to run high when 5 year old girls and their grandmothers are murdered by terrorists.
*******************************************
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=4916
“Jim Miller points out this very disturbing poll of British Muslims:
* One in five British Muslims have no loyalty to Britain.
* Almost one in ten think that the 9/11 attacks and similar terrorist attacks were justified.
* Almost half, even now, do not believe that the 9/11 attackers were Muslims.
* Nearly two thirds are unwilling to admit that the terrorist attacks in Bali and Kenya were conducted by Muslims.
* Almost three fourths find statements by Osama bin Laden more believable than evidence from the British and American governments.
The last finding is, for me, the most disturbing of all. Most Muslims in Britain are simply not open to the kinds of evidence that might convince their fellow citizens. Note that, in the Bali case, they are refusing to accept the claims of the Muslim government of Indonesia and terrorist spokesmen, as well as the claims of the Australian and United States governments. It is not obvious to me how one would begin to change their minds.”
Concerning the fragment of a sentence that you are attempting to characterize LFG with, did you notice the negative reaction it caused?
*******************************************
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=6326
“Some Iraqis are eager to plunge back into the Dark Ages. The forces of schtoopidity are strong within these people.
{Photo of three idiots with paper signs on their shirts reading: “Yes yes for Islamic Government”; “Down Down USA”; “Bush = Saddam”}
Would it be insensitive to point out that these morons wouldn’t even be able to celebrate their barbaric ritual if it weren’t for the United States?
Yes?
OK, never mind.”
The “self-mutilation” and “beating the crap out of themselves” part of the fragment of the sentence you quoted from a longer post refers to lovely, peace-loving practices like this “celebration” of Ashoura. Is the word “subhuman” objectionable? Sure. But it’s hard to condemn it when one sees crap like this going on in the mohammedan world every year.
*******************************************
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=5699
{This thread was about a speech by President Bush.}
Mr. Spock, did you notice the negative reaction to the post you pulled a fragment of a sentence from?
No? Why am I not surprised?
*******************************************
One can, I suppose, ignore the horrors that are going on all around us and which often inspire strong emotions and choose instead to focus on a few comments. But that seems pretty ridiculous: calling a terrorist “vermin” sparks your outrage, but you are silent on the suicide bombing that sparked the comment.
Strange, that.
So, there you have it. A little background on those “horrible” comments you cherry-picked. FWIW.
Currently on LGF, victim of Political Correctness, and bastion of Free Speech, they’re trying to have someone jailed for writing an alleged email critical of Israel that has not even been confirmed to be real:
“Theoretically theres probably some German hate crimes laws this cretin can be nailed on. I hope the Israeli assosciation is pursuing that…”
Athos
Online articles/links would be great. I don’t want to go up searching for the post that we’re referencing, but I think it was Lili’s and she was mostly recommending that I read Islamic literature (sacred texts) or what certain people have written about them (without links). The question I would like her to answer is why? I have seen the Koran in translation and spoken to Muslim scholars about it, and besides the fact that the book itself is large — not to mention all of the other texts she offered — I wouldn’t really know why I’m reading them in the context of this conversation. Is she suggesting I do so because I would understand her point of view? Her conclusions? If so, I must say, not knowing her, it doesn’t motivate me much. It’s fair to say I won’t be going to read them just because she, an unknown person with whom I already seem to disagree, recommends them. I think it’s incumbent on her to illustrate her point — hold my hand as it were, through her argument.
SAO and Eric Deamer —
If I may barge into the post regarding “Palestinian Taboos”. I think it perfectly illustrates what I feel strongly repulsed by at Charles’ site, and that is unsubstantiated and uncritical suspicion. Now unsubstantiated is questionable, as perhaps a culmination of his posts on the topic counts as substantiation. But the lack of a critical eye turns me off. To wit:
Reuters says that rape, the sex crime, is rare among Palestinians. Charles is immediately suspicious. How does Reuters know that, he asks? I wonder, why doesn’t he just contact them or do a little research himself?! But he doesn’t really want to learn if the use of the word rare is true to Palestinian reality — he wants to call into question Reuters’ authority (“creative writing”) and the health of Palestinian society itself (not it seems, judging by the gleeful tone, because he’s interested in helping them but because it pleases him to persecute them). When I say unsubstantiated, I mean he himself doesn’t offer statistics to counter the charge that Palestinian rape is rare. So he’s surmising pure and simple, i.e. no information is present.
I find this rhetorical question odd as well: “Are we supposed to believe that Palestinians are somehow more moral than most humans, and less prone to commit rape and murder?” My question to him would be why not? If you have such an opinion, substantiate it. Otherwise, it’s no better than any other opinion. Furthermore, to my mind, his “case” (if I may flatter him) that Palestinians may be less moral than other humans (and then somehow, though I don’t see the connection, as people rape and murder less) is contradicted by the article which says that the Palestinians are “shocked” by the rape and murder, are worried about a slide into lawlessness (is any of this immoral?) and are even calling for the execution of the criminals (something that would happen in the US certainly). So where in the world is his argument coming from?
Furthermore, he asks “So which is it–‘rare’ or a ‘taboo topic’? ‘Taboo’ implies that it isn’t rare at all” That’s not true, it implies no such thing!
And then he discusses the “typical” (dripping with disdain) Palestinian response. Now far from me to defend the Palestinians here. Such behavior is certainly not the norm in the West, but it’s not like we haven’t seen it in our country — think of the KKK or the witch trials at Salem. Does Charles feel that we didn’t deserve a state because of the existence of such, I guess, what he considers, barbarism?
So all in all, I don’t feel any coherent argument is made — the article directly contradicts what he asserts and he offers no facts to counter it. It’s opinion, no more, and obviously colored by dissention (at the very least), suspicion (throughout, even motivating the piece) and derision, moral, social, and cultural. In short, it’s hate.
In order to win, you have to understand your enemy on their terms, not yours.
LGF is one of the best resources for that. It enables a discussion that is not limited by any “political correctness” and similar nonsense.
The haters have had their share of attention, and they continue looking more and more stupid. Charles didn’t ban them, so their stupidity is now obvious to all. What’s so bad about that?
In my experience, most people who call LGF a racist site, suffer from projection and a whole bunch of other boring issues, all reflecting the fact that they have nothing to say.
The “palestinian taboos” entry questions the veracity of Reuter’s reporting, which has been shown to be questionable many times. Charles seems to me to be questioning Reuter’s bias in favor of palestinians by portraying them as less prone to crime than other ethnic groups. Nowhere did he imply that they are MORE prone to it.
As for their response of waving guns and burning flags, sorry but it is typical for them. Only they can change their behavior and reputation. Don’t let political correctness obscure the truth.
Look at Kori:
“the lack of a critical eye turns me off”
This is what I call Leftist belching, or “Maureen Dowd says, Eek!”
Honey, who would want to turn you on when you’re so full of yourself?
As for Senior Official’s posts, their silliness exceeds their unjustified length, so we can disregard them.
RE: the ubiquitous use of dehumanizing labels such as “subhuman,” “vermin” and “savages” on LGF
The elephant in the room here is the ugly precedent for this particular tactic, something you self-proclaimed “anti-idiotarians” must be aware of (and yet blithly ignore).
You “lizardoids” are playing with fire, knowingly in many cases. SHAME!
http://books.guardian.co.uk/extracts/story/0,6761,1142317,00.html
“…As America’s elite were describing the socially worthless and the ancestrally unfit as “bacteria,” “vermin,” “mongrels” and “subhuman”, a superior race of Nordics was increasingly seen as the answer to the globe’s eugenic problems. US laws, eugenic investigations and ideology became blueprints for Germany’s rising tide of race biologists and race-based hatemongers…”
Mr. Spock
and the best defense they can come up with is “we don’t really mean “nuke mecca and kill all the subhuman arabs” – most of them are just “blowing off steam”
Eric-
I don’t think it’s only my emotions that are spilling out here, or at least I’m not alone. The tone of that post is utter-contempt for Palestinians, and it’s the same tone he always uses. It doesn’t take an “emotional response” to judge tone, just basic reading skills.
As for the content, the post serves no real purpose except to express contempt and hatred. What’s the thesis? “Palestinians rape too,” and then “Palestinians respond to everything by shooting off guns in the air, this shows they’re barbaric.” Again, the goal isn’t to inform, these last two points (rape and barbarism) have been beaten into the ground on LGF. The goal is to reinforce an existing view that is hate-centered.
Is it any wonder then that underneath there is a consistently ugly thread of comments? I don’t think so, I see Charles providing these examples to feed the haters exactly what they want to hear.
Mr. Spock, you are truly an idiot. It has nothing to do with eugenics. It has to do with outrage over truly barbaric, savage behavior.
Or is there nothing you would call savage or barbaric (except, presumably, a handful of people who comment on blogs)?
Again, you’re moaning over comments and ignoring the horrors that trigger them.
For example. <— Hyperlinks are very hard to see around here.
The “self-mutilation” and “beating the crap out of themselves” part of the fragment of the sentence you quoted from a longer post refers to lovely, peace-loving practices like this “celebration” of Ashoura. Is the word “subhuman” objectionable? Sure. But it’s hard to condemn it when one sees crap like this going on in the mohammedan world every year.
———————-
Some native American tribes hang themselves from their pectoral muscles. The Christian desert fathers practiced self-flagellation, self-starvation, etc. Hindu sadhus have been known to drive pins and knives into themselves while in religious ecstasy. Heck, some Middle Eastern monotheistic religions (e.g. Judaism) even lop the tips off of their little boys wee-wees, without anaesthesia, when the infants are only 8 days old!
Subhuman? nope.
All-too-human, sure.
If Mr.Spock is so concerned about the possibility of fascism in America, perhaps he should look to his left. I attended the “peace” protest in NYC, and the thugs who wore badges that said “SECURITY” reminded of brown shirts. They certainly acted like it was THEIR streets.
See a video here:
http://www.anti-com.com/weblog/archives/001089.html
Racism doesn’t stand a chance in America. A political system based on quasi-religious beliefs does, judging by what is considered reasonable at the NY Times. The system of beliefs based on the notion of “imperialism” as hell, Bush as the devil, and Chomsky and M.Moore as High Priests, is more threatening to liberty in this country than any Dr.Laura or KKK.
Mr. Spock. I have no response to that except to say that your ignorance is astounding.
Comparing the blood-letting of an Ashoura “celebration” to circumcision??
(BTW, the mohammedans also circumcise their boys. At age 8 or 12 years (somewhere in that range). It is extremely painful and scars them for life.)
Mr. Spock, you are truly an idiot. It has nothing to do with eugenics. It has to do with outrage over truly barbaric, savage behavior.
Or is there nothing you would call savage or barbaric (except, presumably, a handful of people who comment on blogs)?
Again, you’re moaning over comments and ignoring the horrors that trigger them.
***********************
You’ve provided a link which shows us that some Muslim groups – not unlike some Christian, Hindu, Jewish and indigenous/tribal groups – practice some form of ritualistic body modification as a means to acheive an altered state.
But that’s a side issue. More importantly, I do hope that you can see the difference between savage/barabric and subhuman/vermin. As the Guardian article notes, much nazi ideology was *inspired* by rhetorical currents in American eugenic discourse.
Idea Matter – a very conservative principle, that.
Anywho, here’s the jist of it:
1) You fight with savages and barbarians.
2)You exterminate and sterilize subhumans and vermins, e.g.:
lgf: How to Make a Martyr… They don’t need statehood; they need sterilization. #5, AB 2/9/2003 11:31AM PST, … As M-Doc suggested earlier, mass-sterilization is an interesting application. …
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=5524 – 101k – Cached – Similar pages
OR
lgf: Self Determination… Forced sterilization, and full occupation to keep them under control until the problem solves itself in about 50 years. … Nobody dies in sterilization. …
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=5696 – 101k – Cached – Similar pages
The reason you can sterilize “subhumans” and “vermin” is because (unlike barbarians or savages) they are not really human.
This special distinction is the nazi ideology in a nutshell, BTW.
I simply do not understand these comments from any person of the Left complaining about, “hate” or “bigotry”…Anyone whom comes from this side of the genocidal aisle, an ideology itself based on racism (read your Marx, my child) and hatred — Just the condescending tone expressed towards any Arab (they’re “just to stupid” to think for themselves, evidently — they need their good white Leftist masters to do it for them, evidently)….
I can’t believe it but it’s true. This war is also a war against Leftism and bad ideas…
Some people just never learn.
Help end racism. End Leftism.
im thinkin i hate lgf probably owrkin at a kfc
Mr. Spock. You’re still cherry-picking comments, with no indication of context or of any reactions the comments may have engendered.
You’re just playing a disingenuous game and I think I’ll stop playing now.
For Kori:
You say “Now far from me to defend the Palestinians here. Such behavior is certainly not the norm in the West, but it’s not like we haven’t seen it in our country — think of the KKK or the witch trials at Salem.”
Why are you calling “our country” to account for the sins of
over 300 hundred years ago – Salem – (why not something more contemporaneous like the way George Custer tricked the Native Americans into being unpleasant?) Or even the KKK; how relevant to today are they? (Testimony to the Right of Public Assembly amendment to the Constitution, equal offensiveness opportunity for the ACLU,?) More recent, but about as relevant. Frankly, I think your raising these matters is very rascist.
Why should contemporary Americans be held responsible for the events of the past? What counts is current behavior, not whatever dead cats can be flung over the past.
Most Americans would admit to being ashamed of the KKK (if they had any idea what it was; not of them around these days but whoa! The only people left with a hard on about witches are Unitarian wichiasts (spelling is not my forte). Except possibly for Kori who obviously has a long memory.
My point: civilized people try not to do it again; uncivilized people still make an issue about getting their ass kicked out of Spain 500 years ago although they can certainly forget invading Spain 1200 years ago. Question: what is the relevant range of conduct for being CORRECT these days? Kori?
“. . .I think it was Lili’s and she was mostly recommending that I read Islamic literature (sacred texts) or what certain people have written about them (without links). The question I would like her to answer is why? I have seen the Koran in translation and spoken to Muslim scholars about it, and besides the fact that the book itself is large –“
“Why”? So you could speak with some level of knowledge, authority and reflection about Islam and the whole issue instead of simply out of ignorance. BTW—The Qur’an is a small book, the Bible is the large one. 😉
Your PC “let’s all just get along” musings won’t get us very far, Kori. You have to know your enemy. The Qur’an is a war manual much more than it is a religious book.
” I think it’s incumbent on her to illustrate her point — hold my hand as it were, through her argument.”
The authors I mentioned you can look up. I am not going to link Bernard Lewis et al. I’ll link as I have time.
Samuel P. Huntington’s seminal piece: “Clash of Civilizations” (A MUST read for anyone who wants to know about this subject)
Here are a few links for Qur’an and ahadith:
http://members.cox.net/arshad/hadithcol.html
http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/smm/
http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html
http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/
http://www.shariah-institute.org/science.htm
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/quran/analyzer.htm
It is everyone’s own responsibility to educate him or herself before speaking on a subject, Kori! Or you could just read LGF and follow their links. 😉
“In my experience, most people who call LGF a racist site, suffer from projection and a whole bunch of other boring issues, all reflecting the fact that they have nothing to say.”
I think you are wrong Ivan. Many intelligent, articulate people have left LGF, and are posting elsewhere, not necessarily because Charles is bigoted. (I don’t think the term racist applies, because Muslims/Arabs are not a race.) They have left because many of the groupies are bigoted and racist and Charles permits their comments to stand. They shout anyone who has a countering opinion down with insults. The lack of balance with respect to Israel is really out of line as are the constant dismissals and demonizing of “Old Europe,” among other cultures. I would say that the site is more xenophobic, but, not racist.
“Mr. Spock, you are truly an idiot.”
And the incessant adhoms are not exactly conducive to constructive discourse either.
Granted it is a lot to police. But, Charles could deputize a couple of monitors.
That, said, I still think his service is valuable. I just don’t think its worth one’s time to post because there is no thoughtful analysis—just snipes, rants and links.
Lili
I used to post middle of the road comments on LGF. Then I made the mistake of inciting some of the more rabid elements to action – they traced my IP and spam bombed my site to death with the most offensively stupid and racist remarks. What’s more, they used LGF as a recruiting ground to incite people to launch a DDOS attack on me.
So now I post on LGF using proxies. And LGF bans proxies as soon as it discovers them. And it deletes comments when they are too good at undermining its rather vapid xenophobia.
Charles is a hate-filled hypocrite who has attracted an online brownshirt mob.
Mr. Spock. You’re still cherry-picking comments, with no indication of context or of any reactions the comments may have engendered.
————————-
The only “context” I can imagine that would justify this unseemly enthusiasm for the idea that “subhumans” need to be “sterilized” would be some sort of lunar colony whose inhabitants were blissfully unaware of 20th century military and political history (particularly the 1930s).
Any clown who tries to tar the impeccable ethics of Charles and LGF is guilty of not using proportional reasoning. A tiny smattering of comments go over the line at LGF, whereas the top leaders of Islam in Mecca and Medina often exhort their followers to destroy the infidel and call Jews the sons of monkeys and pigs. That’s racism. Have you heard the Pope or Dalai Lama say anything like that in your lifetime? Palestinian schoolbooks brainwash young students, teaching them to hate Jews and non-Muslims, even putting on school plays and holding rallies to inculcate hatred in their kids’ minds. That’s racism. Are schools in Atlanta, Stockholm, Caracas, or Tokyo teaching their students to hate Muslims? No, they’re preaching respect for all religions. Have almost all of the terrorist attacks, including 9-11, the worst attack ever, been perpetrated by Christians, Hindus, Jews, or Muslims? Muslims, of course. A television mini-series repeating the discedited forgery, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, is run on state t.v. in Egypt. The Protocols and Mein Kampf are perennial bestsellers in the Muslim world. That’s racism. Can you name a similar program that has run on ABC, CBS, NBC, or CNN? Of course not. When was the last time you saw a Westerner burning the flag of Saudi Arabia or Syria on the news or heard someone on a Knoxville t.v. station issue a blanket condemnation of the entire Middle East the way you daily see Muslims threaten to bring bitter death to Americans wherever they are or push Israel into the sea ? If your cause celebre is eradicating racism from the world, a most admirable cause, why in the world would someone denouce a website that has had a miniscule number of racist comments but has shone a bright light on massive, entrenched racism the kind of which is preached by the very highest religious leaders of 1.2 billion people? Have you sent disapproving emails to Hamas, Hizb’Allah, or Malaysia’s president or emails to your local paper denouncing these hateful, racist organizations? I’d bet not. LGF is at the vanguard of exposing the real,institutional racism that is intricately sewn through Muslim society as it is no other. If you’re whining about LGF being racist, you’re really a poseur who isn’t worried about really erradicating racism, because if you were, you would be using your energy to expose and reform Islam. An analagous situation would be the feminist groups that are atwitter that women aren’t allowed to play on every single American golf course, but who are curiosly quiet about clitorectomies, honor killings, and gender apartheid of the Muslim world.
Just to be clear, this post is now getting close to the average length of ONE active post at LGF (I’ve seen one reach over 1,000). Imagine anywhere between 5-10 of these a day, with the possibility of posting on articles up to 7 days old, keep that in mind when you try to argue that Charles should have a laissez-faire attitude about trolls looking to do little more than repeat tired old cliches ad naseum and ignore any attempt at mannerly discourse.
Fostering hate ? Hatemongers ? Bile ? Racism ? Skinheads ?!!!!
Yada Yada Yada !
PC is dead , because it never lived . It is a notion that entreats denial . Putting one’s head in the sand -as it were .
Lgf is a forum of expression , nomore slanted to the right than this blog is to the left . Albeit , pc doesn’t sell well there , but it does NOT get deleted -and that is fact .
Telling it like it is , is NOT racism .NOR FASCISM simply because the TRUTH about whom you are speaking of , turns out to be utterly unflattering.
And folks , when the ugly truth about islam is dragged out and put under the light of day , no , it does not bring out “warm and fuzzy feelings ” to the fore .
And the bloggers on Lgf , who comment on the the articles , which btw are simply Rueters ,Ap stories etc. , and of course what the muslims themselves are saying and doing in real time-are what is generating those comments .And in view of R-E-A-L-I-T-Y , they are not out of line . And they’re certainly better than making pc excuses and turning ones head away from the bitter truth .
Wanna hear racism ? Wanna hear true hatemongering ? Incitement to physical violence ? Go to an arab or islamic blog . And dont be decieved , for where the vitripol is apparently contained , it is easily detectable between the lines -veiled and subtle .
Yes there ARE moderates among them , but not nearly enough to turn back the islamic -jihadi juggernaut which is now on the move .
Face it people , WW3 [cold war ] was in effect a tie , and WW 4 has already started in slow-mtion fashion . Now I know that puts a crimp in your plans for a peaceful, happy life , with a new car every year or two in retirement and a 401k that gets fatter and fatter, but go bemoan that to the Saudi Universities and the like ,where knowledge takes a back seat to radical islam and terrorist types are created and turned out on a conveyer belt . They have already succeeded in poisoning their upcoming generations .
Racism ? Not at all ? Is Memri racist ? Are they Revisionist ? Hate mongers ?
The information that Memri disperses is very unflattering regarding muslims and islam . Trouble is , Memri’s simply translating and reporting objectively , what arab, muslims and their leaders and clerics , are saying to one another , preaching in their mosques around the world ,and broadcasting in its media -tv ,radio and print .
Its not a pretty picture , and offers little in the way of hope , for a more peaceful world.
Islam is heaped with hypocrisy,racism ,anti-semitism , absolutism ,total intolerance and a philosophy that is “backward looking ” towards the 6th and 7th centuries. All the makings for a truly malignant , and destructive Theocracy , which has as its stated goal -World Domination -ultimately by FORCE . And this by religious edict , which makes it incumbant upon all its faithful followers to seek and srive for [struggle=jihad] this goal . For it is the goal of the prophet .
Dont believe it ? JUST ASK THEM .
Lgf merely accentuates the vitriol , hypocrisy, and violence ,that should be easily apparent to all those with the courage to remove their blinders .
Moderate Muslims [AND THERE ARE SOME]are praised on Lgf . They are applauded for their candor and courage. There “just aint all that many of them “.
And that is not surprising , since by their own estimates they are 80% illiterate , that is in the modern language . And that doesn’t assumre inferiority of race for those same 80 % -many can memorize and recite the Quran .[backward thinking brought to its full fruition]
As far as the remarks made by Zuniega regarding the AMERICANS who slain and their bodies defiled?
There is no acceptable excuse for such remarks/ any subsequent back-peddling or “expalnation ” amounts to nothing more than a weak excuse .
The statement was sickening and R-E-P-R-E-H-E-N-S-I-B-L-E.
Democrats are wise to distance themselves from such .
Excalibur… You wrote “Telling it like it is , is NOT racism .NOR FASCISM simply because the TRUTH about whom you are speaking of , turns out to be utterly unflattering.”
I think that you might be pointing to a European way of thinking they’re guilty of. I read the other day that in most of Europe, a person can be convicted of slander even if what is said is true, while in the US, if what’s said is true, you’re in the clear.
There’s a cliche about a messenger…
“A Correspondance”? What is a “correspondance”? Learn to spell, yo.
dc, Learn to read and spell French, yo. 😉
Roger, thanks for the Kudos. But, I am not up for going back to LGF. There are too many other places that provide much better discourse with adults. You may have noticed that I am not up for being PC, but, I do believe in being fair and balanced.
LGF can’t be beat for links though.
Kori, here is a great article by Andrew Bostom about Islamic history, dhimmitude and jizya with lots of scholarly references:
Khaled Abou El Fadl: Reformer or Revisionist ?
*http://www.secularislam.org/articles/bostom.htm*
and an interview with apostate, Ibn Warraq: Why I Am Not A Muslim
*http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s386913.htm
*
That, along with the URLs above, should get you started.
Lili
“Charles is a hate-filled hypocrite who has attracted an online brownshirt mob”
I didn’t know that the brownshirts took brown people like me. The Nazi cliches are utterly stupid.
Why is it so hard for some people to tell the difference between race and culture?
Muslim terrorists have been black, white, arab and asian, to ascribe “race” to the problem is to ignore facts.
BTW, there is only one race on this planet. BEHAVIOR makes a terrorist a terrorist, and that is what LGF calls out.
Of course the PC ninnies don’t like LGF… It shows how stupid they are, and how dangerous their post-modernist dreams have been to civilization!
To Agitate :
Agreed .
The whining accusations of “racist ” “nazi ” is the result of [fear inspired] pc devolving to the inevitable -denial ! Manifesting itself as APPEASEMENT .
….”peace in our time ” …”let’s just giv’em Czechoslovakia , and they’ll leave us alone “.
I found this link rather informative:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=10227_Religion_of_Peace_in_Sudan
It gets interesting around #70.
I can’t possibly read this entire thread. But I’ve read more than enough to say this to those who object to the commenters at LGF: Oh, wah, wah, wah.
I stopped commenting there for one reason: The threads got too big to keep up with. When I did comment regularly, I regularly took to task the few haters and bigots out there. They often pushed back. So what? That’s to be expected. Flamewars have a long online history, and if you’re going to get into any discussion at all, you’re going to get flamed at some point.
I have a question: Can you name a site that gets millions of hits per day, has thousands of unmoderated comments, and brings out quite a number of hatemongers? Try Slate. Go into the Fray, especially on any subject that deals with Israel. Then go into any subject that doesn’t deal with Israel and watch in awe as anti-Semites bring Israel into the conversation. It would seem that Charles Johnson’s site isn’t alone in attracting some hateful troglodytes.
The nature of the unmoderated, or mostly unmoderated Internet is that you get asshats writing their opinions where you have to read them, and you may not like it. To pretend that only Charles Johnson attracts racists, or that he is the only one to give the haters a free hand, is to be disingenuous at best, and a liar at worst. I have seen the most hateful screeds on left-wing blogs. I generally don’t go back to that blog.
As many have already pointed out, most of what Charles does is print the truth about the Islamists. You don’t like the message? Don’t shoot the messenger.
Lili, thanks much for the links and tips. I’ll definitely check them out. This will help me understand.
Woeful comments from another left-wing lover of the gray area where there is neither right nor wrong, simply tolerance and rose-colored glasses:
you have to suck up to the proprietor’s political leaning
Do you have a job?
go the bathroom afterwards and wash yourself thoroughly
That explains the sour attitude towards Jews, your a Ba’athist.
Meryl,
[Big hug]
And you once called me insane 🙂
We’re all very angry, hon.
At LGF, we’re able to vent. We’re able to get emotional support from the other minions, all of whom are as pissed off as we are.
You are really too nice a person to get me. You’re idea of anger is you get mad, yell and scream, and walk away.
I, well, if I’m yelling and screaming, you’re OK.
If I’m quite and subdued, you best make your peace with G-d.
I’m getting tired of yelling and screaming at the Islamofacists.
Another unjustified banning by Charles –
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=5864#c0031
For more info do the LGF search for “Jewjerker” or hit here
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/lgf-search.php?searchWith=lgf&searchString=jewjerker&doSearch=search
Pretty much the same argument that we it is morally OK to care more about deaths of Americans than deaths of non-Americans, even if there are more of them, (which was made here forcefully by A.L.) also means it’s morally OK to protest more against LGF than against the Taliban, even though the Taliban is worse. It’s really just a cheap rhetorical trick.
It’s lucky that so many conservatives view American liberals as the single most serious problem in the world, or else by this reasoning you would have to concentrate on something else.
“I didn’t know that the brownshirts took brown people like me. The Nazi cliches are utterly stupid.”
Fascism is nothing if not adaptable.
Kori,
Thank you again for the response.
Your explanation does add some more information and background towards answering my question.
I agree its frustrating to be asked to do someone else’s research for them, and it would be courteous if they wish to reference a particular source as substantiation to a statement of fact or to augment an opinion to present the link for one to explore.
If they do provide the link – I would assume that one would also consider the source – most of the time – as part of the debate.
As I said before, that is a fair approach.
Thanks again for the thoughtful reply.
Being a fan of Lgf makes me a racist, nazi, and White supremacist? As a Native American liberal woman I find that hysterical. Lgf reports what is really going in the Islamofacist countries, something which our wimpy P.C. media won’t do. It’s obvious that you can’t handle the truth!
“I found this link rather informative:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=10227_Religion_of_Peace_in_Sudan“
Oh yeah, SAO, that’s yet another famous feud that Charles had with Tacitus. It served to drive people to the other sites linked. Tacitus is a very good debater and a very intelligent man. . .
Charles has this need to publicly cry for “assistance” from his groupies every time someone challenges his methods.
It is really too bad that Charles did not take up with Tacitus. They are well matched. The rabble could have cheered for blood. 😉
“Lili, thanks much for the links and tips. I’ll definitely check them out. This will help me understand.”
You are welcome, Kori. Happy reading. Lots more where those came from. 😉
“I’m getting tired of yelling and screaming at the Islamofacists.”
It is like screaming at an amoeba in a barrel—no point to it at all. The civilized world needs another tactic besides ranting. Violence will not do it either.
I say isolate them! They want us to leave them alone— leave the “holy” lands of Islam. Good! We can do that. Complete Isolation of the Islamic world from the rest of civilization. Repatriation of immigrants. Only the necessary trade. No exchanges, no Euro vacations, no U.S. university educations. No guns, no butter, no technology—NOTHING— from the civilized world! They want to live in the 7th century. We can make it happen.
The more Islamofascist terror attacks the more the above scenario is likely to happen.
Lili
Blue Collar Redneck,
Actually, not being particularly enamoured of any religous leaning, I would prefer to describe myself as a humanist. Lenin once refered to religion as being the opiate of the people. Folks,
criticise the posting by all means but lay off the personal attacks. That is more the style on the Little Green Fascist site.
Certainly have a low opinion of Israel. More anti Israel than anti Jew. Always considered the creation of the State of Israel a major U.S. blunder. It has done more than anything to destabilize the Middle East. The people who created the state were a bunch of terrorists themselves. IMHO Israel is the tail that wags the dog. Whatever Israel wants of the USA every American government complies. Without the drip feed of more and more US taxpayers’ money it would have collapsed years ago. Tell me how it can afford to have one of the world’s largest armies and remain viable. And all that discontent continually brewing in the Arab world, breeding terrorism. Now the chickens are coming home to roost.
It seems to me that prior to Zionist era, the Jew and Arab lived pecefully enough. Now the bile is spilling over affecting everyone. Of course the usual good ol’ US of A response is to bomb the
crap out of everyone who disagrees.
By the way Redneck, you ought to get me going on the Catholics sometime. Used to be one until they put a lightning rod on the church steeple. I thought..”Well if you people don’t have enough faith…..”
Cheers,
Ed.
Note to Winds of Change readers: This is a repost of a post I made a few minutes ago at LGF.
Camel Prophet;
an extraordinarily creepy thought, which hadn’t yet occurred to me.
Thanks.
[As an aside to the rest of us:]
This is why I don’t support the
banning of Camel Prophet, even if he does go off his meds once in a while. The
information in his posts far outweighs the nuisance. In fact, judged by
signal:noise ratio, Camel Prophet is a more valuable resource than me or
probably 80% of us regulars.
I don’t think that his comments which call for
whatever disagreeable thing are such a huge offense. So? What’s the effect,
Camel Prophet personally keeping people from reading LGF or commenting? I don’t
think so, and the stats bear me out. All Camel Prophet is doing is saying
things. He’s not out there sending suicide bombers to kill mothers and
babies. Meanwhile the enemy is killing us.
[This only crystallized
this moment. I wish I’d had this thought in time to post it when the WoC thread
was still kind of hot. I’m going to post it there anyway; even though I know CP
himself doesn’t give a shit and doesn’t think much of WoC, it’s to settle my own
misgivings with the one-sided attacks on Camel Prophet there.]
[End of lgf post. I’d like to point out that I don’t share CP’s opinion of WoC; I love this blog.]
Evariste
Excellent post – agree 100% – definitely worth the 2 minute wait 😉
Ed,
If it is a blunder it is a British blunder. For someone claiming the anti-Israel position, your lack of historical facts is surprising. Rather than tell me who you have a low opinion of, could you tell me about anyone you have a high opinion of?
A ‘lightning rod on the church steeple’ turned you off? Not some significant theological flaw(s)? Not a distortion of Scripture? Just a ‘lightning rod on the church steeple’. What do you have enough of? See. I’ve heard your ‘you people don’t have enough faith’ argument before and it has always turned out there was something else bothering the proclaimer of said argument.
Lili,
The second part of my post wasn’t for you. I should have put dashed lines in between:-). But you are posting ligitimate links to back up your position and everyone should read them thoroughly. Especially those who post the number 1.3 Billion as if shear numbers of deceived makes it not a deception. Actually it makes it all the more serious.
It seems to me that prior to Zionist era, the Jew and Arab lived pecefully enough. Now the bile is spilling over affecting everyone
Posted by: E.A. Woodman on April 8, 2004 09:19 AM
*************************************************
Be best to brush up on your history.
“prior to Zionist era, the Jew and Arab lived pecefully enough”
A commonly accepted Legend and false.
E.A.Woodman says :
“It seems to me that prior to Zionist era, the Jew and Arab lived pecefully enough. Now the bile is spilling over affecting everyone. Of course the usual good ol’ US of A response is to bomb the
crap out of everyone who disagrees.”
Spoken like the true disgruntled ex-catholic revisionist that you are Ed .
Stay off the blogs and try picking up a history book .
And when did this “pecefully enough ” era exist?
When did te “Zionist era ” begin ?
p.s. lookout for lightning rods Ed , just about everyones house has got’em …..and uh…”cheers ” yourself .
The reason you can sterilize “subhumans” and “vermin” is because (unlike barbarians or savages) they are not really human.
This special distinction is the nazi ideology in a nutshell, BTW.
Posted by: Mr. Spock on April 8, 2004 12:41 AM
*************************************************
Which BTW is the Status of dhimmis in Islamic Society. Nice of you to point out these facets.
On an individual note, I DO consider subhuman such specimens as the sniper who shot 10 month old
Shalhevet Pass, in the head, left her father alive I guess that was a message?
http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000454.html
A difficult shot and purposely targeted.
Or how about Danielle Shefi 5 years old shot cowering in her bed by men who broke into her house in the dead of night?
http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000021.html
I consider them vermin, and those who lead them deserving of extermination.
Not really human is too tame an epithet.
E.A.Woodman says :
“It seems to me that prior to Zionist era, the Jew and Arab lived pecefully enough. Now the bile is spilling over affecting everyone. Of course the usual good ol’ US of A response is to bomb the
crap out of everyone who disagrees.”
*************************************************
Some light reading for yah.
Was the Islam of Old Spain Truly Tolerant?
http://pub18.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm15.showMessage?topicID=51.topic
The Treatment of Jews
in Arab/Islamic Countries
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html
There’s always much said about the explusion of the Jews from Spain and Italy at the end of the 15th Century, and while I do NOT condone that part of History it never ceases to amaze me that few wonder, how and WHY they got there in the first place?
Could it have been fleeing Muslim persecution in the MidEast?
BOTH of the other two portions of the People of the Book are quilty, they did seem to “take turns”
Jewish persecution in Muslim lands did NOT originate with Zionism, it was built into the Society from the beginning.
Actually Muhammed and Luther had that in common, both wrote really nice things about the Jews and then when they did not swoon with gratitude and convert enmasse, BOTH laid the seeds for hatred and persecution in thei latter writings.
Excaliber,
1897. Yeah, would have thought that the Angel of the Lord would be out there protecting all holy places and true believers. Hence no need for lightning rods. I don’t really want to offend peoples’ sensibilities but don’t most of you so called religious types out there really worship Mamon?
So now in my humble opinion, due mostly to the creation of Israel we have witnessed the attack on the World Trade Centre, the Bali attack, the Madrid bombings, American embassies abroad being attacked, war in Chechnia and one helluva mess in Iraq where everyone is being attacked.
And I heard G.W. Bush on T.V. saying that it was all Islamic envy of America. God spare me days, wasn’t that a real perceptive social criticism?
Grow up Dubya! They hate the sight of America and its values!
So now we are all feeling the long reach of Islam.
How much is this war costing American taxpayers?
In addition to the trillion dollars spent on propping up Israel. Add the billions spent on Eygpt and …Oh I could go on and on.
Are my perceptions THAT wrong? Anyway folks, go easy on the personal vilification. Leave that to the knuckleheads at Little Green Fascists.
Ed.
war in Chechnia
E.A. Woodman
*************************************************
Is due to US Foreign Policy on Israel?
ROTFLMAO
I am certain Putin will be pleased to learn this little fact of geopolitics.
I would be quite interested in the logic it is derived from. Между прочим? Вы знаете любых Русских, или Вы – только кресло полезный идиот?
BTW How does US support of Israel result in Islamic Jihad slaughtering some 2 million Sudanese Pagan and Christian peasants?
What part did it play in the Bangladessh genocide.
How exactly are the Zion-cons accountable for the hundreds of thousand of deaths in Algeria?
I mean with a genocide body count approcahing double digit megadeath range at the hands of Islamofacsim in the last generation,
You rant about these pinpricks by comparason?
Yes I know each death is a tragedy, but the magnitude you ignore amazes me.
PS WHY are there no Human Shields in Sudan?
WHERE are the Massive marches for Peace there?
“Being a fan of Lgf makes me a racist, nazi, and White supremacist? As a Native American liberal woman I find that hysterical. Lgf reports what is really going in the Islamofacist countries, something which our wimpy P.C. media won’t do. It’s obvious that you can’t handle the truth!”
Well according to some, nazis are “adaptable.” It’s very obvious that some people have no idea what brownshirts were or what nazis stand for. They also refuse to understnd the difference between race and culture, which in itself is racist.
Pitiful that some feel such a need to prove they aren’t racist that they leave logic behind and can’t even recognize real racism where it is. As one of the historically (not now) oppressed brown people I say to these, thanks for nothing! No more of your condescending “help,” please!
Again, it’s about how they FEEL, rather than reality. Like Excaliber said, their feeling is APPEASEMENT.
Muslim terrorists have been black, white, arab and asian, to ascribe “race” to the problem is to ignore facts.
AGAIN, there is only one race on this planet. BEHAVIOR makes a terrorist a terrorist, and that is what LGF calls out.
You tell them! agitate
My Great Aunt was a Medicine Woman
I can just imagine her reaction
if I told her I had been called
a Neo-Nazi AND and Anti-Muslim racist. 😉
HOW exactly is that possible?
Not being called that, I do take the sources
into account, but to actually BE both?
Ed,
You pick who and what you want to blame and then weave everything which ever way necessary to support your view, concoct make-believe history or never minding when you leave out historical facts and characteristics of all peoples and religions.
So your position is that if we throw Israel away then the world will suddenly become a utopia? That is your solution?
I’d surely like to see Charles Johnson’s explanation of his treatment of Diana Moon at Letter from Gotham. And of his cute little 404 trick when people who disagree with him link to his site.
FWIW, I consider LGF one of the more vile corners of the blogosphere; it’s almost like having a neighbor who keeps cockroaches as pets. He might be the nicest person in the world, but you still wouldn’t like living next to him. Fortunately, in the blogosphere, I don’t have to, which is why there is no excuse, as A.L. pointed out, for calling to shut him down.
Dave-
Where is your condemnation of Daily Kos? Or of other subversive LLL sites that proclaim they want the US to lose and our military heros to die? Where is your condemnation of those protestors who proclaim the Palestinian Flags? Where is your condemnation of those who chanted in San Diego last week, “THE US out of NORTH AMERICA. (it was on lt. Smash’s website!) If you are going to even TRY to condemn LGF, I want to see your equally condemning those other websites as well.
Hi Roger,
You are not the only one who did History 101. Specifically now, avoiding a personal attack , please explain which historical facts I’m alleged to have concocted and which I’ve left out As a matter of fact I would be interested in your own
opinion as to why the world is in such a mess.
My own opinion, as I’ve previously stated was the creation of Israel and unfliching American aid.(Billions and Billions of American taxpayer dollars plus state of thhe art weaponry) Now you don’t uproot an entire people, tell thhem to piss off and expect roses, do you.
In addition, there’s the 800 pound gorilla, the United States of America, hungry for oil, setting itself up as the region’s policeman.
Now I’ve just finished watching a TV program
about germ warfare which dealt with the American
biological warfare tests at a range near Fort Dietrich. It also explained the Soviet Union’s capabilities. Apparently the Soviets had stored
4,500 tons of weapons grade anthrax. So I’m suggesting that war has become a VERY scary option
for the new century.
America might at this moment in its history be the
mightiest nation on earth but empires come and go.
We saw last century the collapse of all the European empires, the Romanoffs, the Soviets, the
Ottomans and the Japs to name a few. Rome fell to the barbarians, the Holy Roman Empire faded away.
Napolean was there for a brief moment so don’t get too carried away with excessive pride and hubris. The idiots in charge at the White House quite frankly frighten the daylights out of me.
The Cold War was bad enough but at least common sense prevailed. I see little of this from either side at the moment. Anyway I’ve most likely raved on too long. Probably get the usual flak. You lot are lot more polite than Little Green Nazis. Thought that I had dropped into the Twilight Zone
over there. Joe hasn’t hit the dump button so far, so thanks for the courtesy.
Bye now
Ed.
im thinkin boris the serf on this thread. bannin proxys not a bad idea
So Ed , you would generalize and categorize me as ” a so called religious type ” ? How so ?
I expressed no religious opinion . You stated you were a disaffected Catholic , thereby adding a religious tone to your comments .
As far as your revisionists remark – ..”prior to the zionist era ,jews and arabs lived peacably ”
Is that so ? Try Medina ED ? and everything ever since .
I’m glad you qualify your remarks ” as your own humble opinion ” because it is certainly not based on fact . And that is your right . But dont peddle it off as historical fact ,because it simply is untrue . Therefore if you use that same “falsified rationale ” in explainig the 9/11 attacks , your argument falls flat on its face , because the premise of your argument is primarily false .
Educate yourself and investigate the tenets of islam and you will find your answer. And if you’re too lazy for earnest investigation , go to Memri and get your eyes opened as to just exactly what the present day islamic mindset is ,and what it is pining for .
And if you think living as a Dhimmi is “peaceful ” why dont you try it out . You can always ask the people in Sudan who are at present being persecuted and exterminated for simply not being MUSLIM . And I sincerely doubt if their persecutors even know where Israel is . Or try the jungles of Indonesia, Malaysia or the Phillipines where “peaceful islam ” really not living peacably with their “unbeliever neighbors ” .
Sorry Ed , but I dont think you can handle the truth , for it offers no solution in the near future ,and that will keep the world’s economies and your life in somewhat of a dubious position . And that’s not at all a comfortable place is it ?
And finally ed , no I’m not a religious -type , I care not what a man’s creed is , so long as it is not being forced down my throat at the point of a sword .
p.s. Ed , everyone has to deal with Mammon to a certain extent , but no-one has to worship it -although many do .And guess what your keyboard and computerare ? Yup – MAMMON .
Hi Ed,
My basis for punching:-) at you is that earlier you stated that ‘Always considered the creation of the State of Israel a major U.S. blunder’. There is no historical basis for this statement. Balfour Declaration was not written and accomplished by the U.S. How can it be a U.S. blunder if it is a blunder? Actually it looks like an Israeli success.
Archeology in Judea, Samaria and Galilee is fascinating. Keeps finding Jewish relics, artifacts and culture and is being studied and preserved. Bethesda has now been found. The Dead Sea Scrolls have been found; an ancient library. Imagine if a Taliban-like regime had gotten control of the Biblical lands.
Do you use oil? I use oil all the time; every day, great stuff. Don’t worry about the oil and the U.S. We’re going to do just fine and note we pay money for oil. Many people don’t understand Le Chatelier’s Principle of Thermodynamics, that when you disturb a system the system adjust to minimize the disturbance. Many American scientists including myself have already shifted focus and in the next couple of decades you will be pleasantly surprised with the results.
Understand that I am an American that respects the President of the United States regardless of who is in the White House. Whether a Democrat or Republican, in an open society it is impossible for them to protect us from attack. After 9/11 I watched the politicians on both sides of the aisle and there was not one that wasn’t shook. Even if some have forgotten and wish to think they can go back as before since the U.S. has been astonishingly successful, we must work together to protect our civilized world.
It is really not the time to be anti-establishment, but to reevaluate old anti-establishment behaviors, adapt and support our nation. I could not do the job of President of the United States very well but I dare say the current and all former Presidents couldn’t do my job(s) at all:-)
In talking to Arab and Muslim friends, they clued me in before President Bush said it that this mess wouldn’t go away in my life time and President Bush confirmed what my friends explained(even more bluntly) to me. If we(U.S.) simply did no action and pleaded with the mess makers to stop, they wouldn’t. This has been festering in Islam regardless of any behavior from any other entity. There is an inequality where most people think there has to be one by default. Therefore any further analysis they do will be erroneous.
The entire ecology of humans is more complex than I can understand. We can’t over-simplify our models. You have a lot of energy and I sincerely challenge you to reevaluate and put that energy to better use because there is much work to be done:-)
There are worse things then hate speech, one of them being hate acts. Islamists have been murdering infidels by the millions for the last 1000 years, but we should not say anything about this, as it is hate speech.
LGF and Charles Johnson are not the ones commiting hate crimes. Neither are they inciting hate acts. What LGF in the main, is about, is to expose and condemn Islamists, who deliberately and knowingly slaughter innocents in the name of their so-called religion. LGF, for the first time in history, has shone a light on these cockroaches. The images we see are not pleasant, just as the pictures of Nazi atrocity were not pretty. But there it is. LGF is a mere messenger, a light or even a mirror, that is showing an a aspect of human beings still driven by a paranoid expansionist culture. Truth is uncomfortable sometimes and turning away may be more comfortable option for some.
I’m afraid that those who do not condemn hate acts, in the strongest language possible, are among those who are complicit in evil.
Which way is the raft heading? I think youse guys will get another two by four alongside the head in November, I hope is is better for you then the ’02 cluebat was. This is nothing more then an Attack on LGF. Liberals tend to try to destroy what they can’t understand.
“We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you.”
-Hussein Massawi, former leader of Hezbollah,
Most crimes are hate crimes. You have to be a real morooner to try and seperate them into “just crimes” and “hate crimes”.
Indeed , condemn the acts rather than make excuses for them .
And the beat goes on .
Japanese hostages taken , and the threat ?
To burn them alive !
But alas the fearful condescending media , leave out part two of that threat – to feed them to “the fighters ” .
Time for all to stand up straight on their hind legs and recognize this thing for what it is – nothing less than a clash of civilisations .
6th century savages and barbarians is what WE ALL face ,and to attempt to curry favor with them by legitimizing their actions in any way ,will ultimately embolden them further .
Remember , you are all infidels , and of which stripe makes no difference – all worthy of the same fate .
There are no Dem.or Rep., right or left infidels, you are all cattle in their eyes , to do with as they please .
“Peaceful Islam ” ? Yea , when pigs fly .
And the sword is not their only weapon ! Investigate the billions of Saudi dollars being pumped into educational facilities in the U S to further their Wahabi agenda .
In the Cold War the Soviets stated they would sell us the rope by which we would be hung – that failed . We did not fear them .
The jihadi juggernaut however , from the overt to the subtle and insidious , seems to be working .
Every drop of oil that leaves the M.E. is paid for in U S dollars .
Let the Saudis accept Euros only, for their oil, and if you think your 401k took a beating a few years ago , just wait and see what that will do .
And judging by the way the Europeans are acting , shrinking at every threat , trying to maintain their foolish pc – it’s not a wild notion at all .
There IS NO HOPE for peace in the near future , at least not until Islam experiences an epiphany of thought / And dear freinds , in these times no hope is better than false hope , because at least our actions will be based on reality and not assumptions soaked in “wishful thinking ” based on false premise .
And Gentlemen ! Gentlemen !
Re : the acrimony going on here regarding LGF .
[and the subsequent OBVIOUS bashing ]
First off , LGF mostly reports what arabs and muslims ARE SAYING AND DOING – then invites comments .
ie: SAUDI SCHOOLGIRLS ARE PREVENTED FROM LEAVING A BURNING BUILDING DUE TO “the virtue police ” and are subsequently BURNED TO DEATH -because they werewnot dressed properly to be seen OR RESCUED .
Horrible ! BUT ABSOLUTELY TRUE !
Is that racism ? Hatemongering ? …to report such things ?
Truth is , arabs and muslims behave badly , and those that do are by no means a minority .
DANCING IN THE STREETS ON 9/11 – again absolutely TRUE – incitement to hatred ? On the part of whom ? Charles ? the bloggers at Lgf ?
The comments are indeed harsh and critical -and rightly so – that is expressing one’s humanity , but never has there been a generalisation of ALL arabs and muslims , and I think all here know that .
And surely, most here posses at the literary and comprehension skills in the English language to detect bitter chagrin and dark sarcasm , as they are expressed in many of Lgf bloggers comments .
If not , then it must be ignorance or worse -intellectual dishonesty .
Posted by: Roger on April 8, 2004 08:12 PM
There are worse things then hate speech, one of them being hate acts. Islamists have been murdering infidels by the millions for the last 1000 years, but we should not say anything about this, as it is hate speech
************************************************
Better make that murdering infidels by the millions for the last decade.
Otherwise we will be treated to yet another rendition of how the Evil Christian Crusaders savagely attacked the Peaceful Muslim Empire. 😉
Leave aside for the moment the conquest of the entire Christian Society of the MidEast, and North Africa, the conquest of Spain up to the Southern French border, plunder of the Mediterranean coastline of Europe for ? 400 years the Conquest of Sicily, the pillage of Southern Italy, how about this as an indication that the Islamic Empire was NOT based on Peace Love and Compassion.
There were Muslim military fortifications within 40 miles of Rome 200 years before the First Crusade.
Let someone please direct me to URLs where there is information about WHEN and WHERE this Religion of Peace (?)
EVER lived up to the claim it makes? I have looked and I cannot find it.
Do NOT direct me to sources which speak of what the Quran SAYS.
I want to see where, when and how they
“walked the walk”
I have noticed they are adept at “talking the talk”
BTW did ANYONE ever respond to Armed Liberal’s question?
“What if the religion involved is bad? What if it, as a mainstream value, advocates things which we find horrible and intolerable?”
I tried to print off this thread so I could go through it thoroughly, but I hit cancel when the page count got to 200+
Once again, “LGF is Hateful” (who leaves no email address, but is at an IP address that is now banned) argues that we should move to shut down LGF.
You obviously can read English LGFIH; why can’t you get the point that this isn’t approrpiate behavior here?
Get your own website and peddle political censorship.
(and yes, I know that censoring someone for advocating censorship is amusing)
A.L.
Excaliber,
About the threat to burn alive some Japanese hostages. Yeah, caught that on a T.V news flash about half an hour ago. That and the killings of the four mercs in Al Faluja were horrible. It kind of reminds one of the lynchings that take place in the deep South, eh? I guess the American form of lynching is the more civilised version which I am sure any black folks out there will assuredly testtify to. Not like those uncivilized
Arabs.
Looks like we have another Lebanon in the making. Iraq is a direct result of British meddling, in which they stripped this oil rich Turkish province for their own greedy purpose. Of course, in the good old British tradition, whether by design or accident, no thought was given to cultural considerations so that the lines drawn on the map managed to cut off
a Kurdish minority, seperating them from their fellow entity. You see the same thing all over
Africa. Big power arrogance. So the Brits have been here before. In fact they were here boots on the ground) for 41 years before they were turfed out. They terror bombed, strafed Arab and Kurdish villages, carried out army ground attacks with poison gas.(On another blog, I inadvertantly said that the gas was dropped from aircraft. Apologies for that. Also have to apologise for claiming no strategic value for the town of Dresden. Apparently there was a large railroad marshaling yard there) Point is they are back for the same old reason. OIL. Yeah, all you people want to fill up with cheap gas. If there was no oil then America wouldn’t have the slightest interest.
Remember when the U.S stuck its nose into Somalia.
Same old story …thousands of dead Somalis.
Went into Panama…thousands of dead Panamanians.
Why the hell don’t you just leave these frolks to sort out their own differences the same way they been doing for centuries. They will finally come to some arrangement with a lot less dead Americans.
Next thing on Bush’s agenda will probably be the re-introduction of the DRAFT. Do you guys out there remember the communication from the White House? …”Greetings from the President of the United States. Plese report to your nearest Draft Board for induction into…..” bet you were real thrilled. Interuption to career, college etc. Leave the wife behind. The “Dear John” letter etc
In the service you learnt interesting stuff like how to salute officers, how to clean latrines, how to pick up cigarette butts on the parade ground. You learned how to say yessuh, nosuh Of course then there was travel to exotic places, get to meet interesting foreign folks, kill them.
Send your buddie home to his mom in a Glad Bag.
Best years of your life you tell the next generation when in fact you were scared shitless.
If you weren’t, you weren’t there or were off the planet on heroin.
Anyway, can’t sit here chatting all day.
Ed.
I will say some positives and some definite negatives about LGF. First, in the positive aspect, Charles Johnson is not a racist, his Site has merit, and is worth visiting for the great articles and the 30% of posters who are really thoughtful and intelligent.
OK, now for the negatives. Charles demands to know who posts on WoC who was banned by him. I was, and I admit I deserved it…but I was banned after a string of 4 very specific death threats on his site – where I found the names of 3 of the 4. I complained to C Johnson about 3 of them – one of which was very specific, detailed my address, said that “2-3 people were looking to gun me down – it was no joke.” Johnson’s response was that my anti-Zionist sentiments had provoked the death threats and it was my fault and he was pissed at the 3 death threat makers but more at my opinions and he wouldn’t ban them. When I said that I would contact his ISP about the 3 zionists – he said that if any trouble went in his direction, he would ban me. Then a 4th threat came from a woman who posted my name and part of my address. I found her real name and, after 3 death threats, one which I considered credible by Charles Johnson’s regulars, I posted telling “Dr. Pamela” to avoid ever posting details about me on LGF again or I would contact the California Medical Board about her past comments, like “Muslim women patients I treat breed like rats” or I would see her face-to-face in my next Cal visit because I was fed up with other posters threatening me or revealing personal details.
Charles Johnson’s reaction? He let the death threat makers continue to exist on LGF, and banned me. You have to understand – the guy is a Christian Zionist – though he fails to realize that he is as welcome to live in Israel as the Muslims he detests or as welcome to be buried in Israel as a pig’s carcass.
(BTW -I saved the emails you wrote me urging me to blow off the death threats or you would banish me if I made any trouble for LGF, Charles.)
When thin-skinned Johnson sees a picture of himself or a post with his name or phone..well …this is his typical personal reaction, however (4/8/04 Blog post example) –
So do you have anything to say about the fact that your friend still has an address and phone number posted at her blog (search for “323” to find it) that purports to be mine, in an invitation to stalk, harass, and possibly cause physical harm to me—but it isn’t even my address
My end conclusion is that LGF is a site worth seeing because C. Johnson displays good material, and has many good commentors – but approaches a hate site because of his tolerance of “nazi extremist level” Zionists, that talk of nuking Mecca, sterilizing Palestinian mothers, “transfer” of Palestinians to Jordan or they face death, or who constantly refer to non-Jews in subhuman terms.
Johnson’s culpability is that he will ban “holocaust-deniers”, Jew-slurring trolls in a heartbeat – but he will permit Zionist “Fisking” of any poster that disagrees with his hate-filled fanatic “lizardoids” – up to allowing his rabid Jew/Christian Zionist following, to make genocidal death threats against The Enemy – or just ordinary death threats against dissenting posters.
And so Charles Johnson self-selects his commentators and then has to then constantly defend himself against accusations that LGF is a hate site or a racist site across the Blogsphere. IMO – he brought this on himself. If he was not so biased, he would have purged his peanut gallery of Zionist hate merchants long ago. Folks like Bigel, Caton, Camel Prophet, zulubaby, mommydoc (they breed like rats!), trevanian, Death to Paleostinians, Likudman, etc.
On this site, hypersensitive Charles attempts to do word counts to show – for instance – only 0.093% of his posters deal with direct proposals to “Nuke Mecca” – thus LGF can’t have a significant hate/racist element. But if you go past his linked articles, which BTW are a service because they show the Muslims are even worse than the Likudniks that seek ethnic cleansing – you find the fervid squalor in the LGF Comments section quite readily. The racism, the clamor of the mob to ban any new poster who is to the Left of Ariel Sharon as a “non-like-minded” Troll.
My opinion. If Charles denies retaining death threat makers that he politically or religiously agrees with – while chucking out other transgressors from LGF – I’d love to hear from him and refresh his memory of the June 2003 email exchanges we had prior to my being banned.
Anyone is free to search our site for Ranbutan and look through the hundreds of comments he posted, and judge for themselves whether I: 1) let him go on far too long (with numerous private email warnings), or 2) banned him unjustly.
The scenario laid out above bears only a small resemblance to reality.
Dan Kauffman,
That was in DP’s comment but I don’t mind being associated with the quote:-)
OK, now for the negatives. Charles demands to know who posts on WoC who was banned by him. I was, and I admit I deserved it…
Posted by: Ranbutan on April 9, 2004 06:09 AM
Ranbutan, your honest about it which is good. You are leaving quite a legacy on the internet. Is there a part of you that wants to change some of it? Couldn’t you widen your view, see more of the complexity? You have the intellect to do much better. I’m curious where you started from; is your philosophy the same now as it was when you were twenty?
Well Ed , Dresden ? Southern lynchings ? That was then this is now . Dont know what either have to do with the present .
Yes do remember the draft , got mine in Dec ’69 . And yes usually when Uncle Sam “calls” it is for the expressed purpose of war , that is -killing people -[that’s what you do in wars ] . Draftees are seldom called for vacation tours . And I agree 100% about the Brits , in fact the whole middle east boundary “system “is about 90% due to the “British Empire ” . Ok. And the Japanese used to lop your head off as late as the forties .
Somalia ? Yup -the world screamed for us to do something -we got burned .
Rwanda ? we didn’t get involved-and we got burned in effigy . The Balkans? again the world screamed – we all got involved -but only the U S took the heat . Now rumblings from the Sudan – GENOCIDE !!! SOMEONE SHOULD DO SOMETHING! WHERE’S THE U S ??? Kuwait ? – go figure .
But scratch all that , what’s Lgf ? A sounding board and nothing more ? Yes -more – a forum for reaction to a world reality . A reality many would deny for the reason of personal comfort and its false sense of well being at the cost of revisionism .
Racist -hate-mongers -death threats ? BUNK .
A website diametrically opposed to the views espoused here ? Absolutely ! And therein lies the heart of the matter . The rest is merely hyperbole .
The folks here call for “shutdown ” . Sounds like an encumbance on free speech to me . Lgf calls for the shutdown of no one , but points out some nasty views propounded in other places .
It seems some folks cant handle the truth with large doses of intellectual sarcasm mixed in .
At last, one of the “I wuz banned from LGF!” stories is being told by somebody who I actually do remember seeing there.
Of course, I also remember what he was actually banned for, and it damn sure wasn’t about death threats. AAMOF, if I’d been the guy making the decisions, I’d have banned his ass months and months before the point where CJ’s patience finally ran out. For being a repetitive, ignorant, inciteful, and just plain L^3 retro-cranial inversion.
I might as well weigh in with my tuppence. I’m one of the ‘PC’ posters who has been banned on LGF. I never made any bones about my disagreement with the ethos of the site from day one, and always made a point of hanging around to defend my position when I entered a debate. By that criteria I couldn’t be considered a ‘troll’, and the straw dog of ‘thread derailment’ only makes sense if dissent offers only opportunity for ‘derailment’. I stayed on topic to a greater degree than many ‘regulars’ of the approved political outlook on the site.
I won’t cry a river over the banning. It’s Charles site, and without a facility for posting (or posting without grief – I’ve occasionally managed the odd pseudonym post), it still offers an insight into the herd demonisation mentality, and perspectives other than my own.
I find LGF to undoubtedly a ‘hate site’, given that the over-riding senitiment expressed there is hateful. I don’t think it has any relationship with neo-nazis or overt racism, but certainly find the anti-Islamic bigotry overt (even by Charles himself these days. The veins on his temple bulge more obviously than in earlier days. Given that I was often accused of anti-semitism in the most unwarranted fashion, the hypocritical toleration of, and less frequently, egging on of religious demonisation is rather hard to swallow.
What irritates me most about the site is the absolute unwillingness to admit error. I firmly believe that the prime motivation for my own banning was my insistance on debunking (with statements from the IDF no less) the lie that Rachel Corrie (up there with Arafat as hate figure No.1 on LGF) was ‘protecting a tunnel’ when she was killed in Gaza. The facts of the case were, and remain that she was attempting to stop the demolition of a doctors house at the edge of the flattened ‘no mans land’ along the security border. As it transpired, the IDF didn’t have any intention of demolishing the house on that day (but I believe it’s been demolished by them subsequently). Charles however prefers the convenient, if erroneous, position that she was a justified, and self loathing casualty of ‘dhimmitude’. It’s a simple cartoon world that Charles inhabits and promotes, and the complicated messy realities of life aren’t welcomed into that world. My admission that I’ve personally known people involved in terrorist activities who don’t conform to the ‘animalistic blood thirsty butcher’ stereotype probably didn’t help my case much with the ‘with us, or against us’ mentality that reigns on the site.
VFI — denied.
The famous picture that you moonbats all use, of Rachel Corrie standing with the megaphone by the house, was taken hours before her death. As anybody with half a brain cell can see, seeing as how the photos of her standing with the megaphone show her standing on flat ground, but the photos of her immediately before and after the bulldozer impact show her on a completely different… and far less flat… piece of terrain. They are quite obviously not the same picture.
She died trying to stop an IDF armored bulldozer from clearing brush that was used to obscure tunnel entrances. It wasn’t even a friggin’ house, just some damn bushes.
The pictures.
I’m sorry Chuck, I don’t recall mentioning (let alone ‘using’) any photos? The bulldozer was levelling scrub, not to expose tunnel entrances (I’d have thought that you’d credit even a sub-human pally with enough sense not to run their tunnels into an open area adjacent to an Israeli security perimeter?), but as part of their regular flattening procedure to discourage mine laying and potential sniper positions. That Corrie believed that the bulldozer was moving towards the doctors house (it was pointed in that direction, and not a huge distance away) can never been proven, since she’s dead, but it certainly makes sense, given that she wasn’t likely to endanger herself for a shrub, a non-existant tunnel, or any other fabrication you might suggest. Her fellow activists suggest they believed the house was under threat, and it’s on that basis they spent the morning placing themselves between the bulldozer and buildings.
Perhaps you would like to explain why the IDF didn’t subsequently mention the adjacent tunnel entrances that you believe Corrie was protecting on the day, or indeed why they briefed their PR man to explain (repeatedly) that they were doing routine ground levelling, and didn’t have any demolition orders on the day?
> I’m sorry Chuck, I don’t recall mentioning (let
> alone ‘using’) any photos?
Ah, so you weren’t using any evidence at all. Got it.
> The bulldozer was levelling scrub, not to
> expose tunnel entrances [snip]
It was levelling scrub *to* expose tunnel entrances.
> (I’d have thought that you’d credit even a sub-
> human pally with enough sense not to run their
> tunnels into an open area adjacent to an
> Israeli security perimeter?)
The shorter the tunnel, the easier it is to dig, and the more likely it is to not collapse w/o substantial reinforcement structures. These guys aren’t exactly equipped to bore mine shafts and/or lay down concrete reinforcement. And since the whole point of the tunnels is to get past Israeli security perimeters, then it’s necessary for them to be adjacent to Israeli security perimeters.
Duh.
> Perhaps you would like to explain why the IDF
> didn’t subsequently mention the adjacent tunnel
> entrances that you believe Corrie was
> protecting on the day,
> or indeed why they briefed their PR man to
> explain (repeatedly) that they were doing
> routine ground levelling, and didn’t have any
> demolition orders on the day?
And ‘routine ground levelling’ has absolutely nothing to do with tunnels, of course.
*rolleyes*
“About the threat to burn alive some Japanese hostages. Yeah, caught that on a T.V news flash about half an hour ago. That and the killings of the four mercs in Al Faluja were horrible. It kind of reminds one of the lynchings that take place in the deep South, eh? I guess the American form of lynching is the more civilised version which I am sure any black folks out there will assuredly testtify to. Not like those uncivilized
Arabs.”
Here we go again….
LGF reports on the terrorism of uncivilized Arabs, uncivilized Africans, uncivilized asians and uncivilized white people. Why is this so hard to understand? The uncivilized faction of Islam includes people of many colors. IT’S THE BEHAVIOR NOT THE COLOR!!!!
Of course we have our KKK/nazi/stormfront loons who have and want to commit acts of terror, what does that have to do with LGF? Our culture has moved on past the approval of such behavior as lynchings, which is something radical Islam, and most often “moderate” Islam refuses to do. Prove me wrong if you can on this, please.
If you want to see some real racism, visit stormfront.org. They are the ones you should target. LGF isn’t even in the same galaxy as those knuckledraggers.
Chuck,
The open ground that Corrie was killed on faced the IDF manned border. All the tunnels that have been exposed to date emerge within buildings (for all the obvious reasons) None manage to emerge in open ground between buildings and an Israeli border with military watch towers etc. Please try a little common sense. The point of the tunnels is to smuggle goods and weapons in from the other side of the Egyptian border.
The ‘evidence’ I referred to was the statement of the IDF officer (Captain Jacob Dallal – do a search on LGF)seconded to deal with the press on the Corrie matter (not some suit in San Fransisco), the statement of those with Corrie (best source for their intent and beliefs on the day, and THE GLARING AND IRREFUTABLE ABSENSE OF ANY TUNNELS NEAR WHERE SHE WAS KILLED. I’m sure that flattening out the landscape has all sorts of miltary advantages, but if the IDF had any basis for referring to an actual tunnel on that day (or subsequently as a foil to those who indulged in the demonisation of them in this case, I’m sure they would have mentioned them by now.
Did the google search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_qdr=all&q=jacob+dallal+corrie
First page and a half of entries, all I could find was Dallal’s statement ‘Corrie’s death was an accident.’ Virtually no details beyond that.
Sometimes the articles would contain a lot of the same claims you made… but not from Dallal. From ISM types and suchlike. You are aware that an article can quote more than one person at a time, right?
As to ‘some suit in San Francisco’ — ah yes, because it doesn’t fit with your worldview, you just throw it out. Because consular press officials are widely known for just making up their own version of shit that completely contradicts the official position of their government. Always.
/sarcasm off
Thanks for reminding me even further exactly why you aren’t on LGF any longer.
The visibility claim in the ISM statement “Corrie was wearing a bright jacket and climbed onto the bulldozer shovel-plow and began shouting at the driver. “There’s no way he didn’t see her, since she was practically looking into the cabin.”” does not stand the test of analysis of the photographs and eye witness account.
How many here have worked around heavy earth moving equipment? It is serious and dangerous work. The machinery is huge with awesome power that needs to be respected at all times. In the best of circumstance you don’t try to climb onto a moving bulldozer(eye witness phrase ‘kept moving’). Especially from the front. In fact as part of safety procedures you don’t go on foot in the work area while heavy machinery is active, period.
The front end is a D-9 bulldozer blade(not a bucket) higher than your head polished slick by the abrasion of clays and sands during use. There is not much for your feet; you would have to mostly pull yourself with your hands and arms. There is constant jarring force from the rough terrian thru the bulldozer(no shock absorbance at all) to its blade and into your arms that an unfamiliar person would not expect. And you are not visible that close in. Doesn’t matter what you are wearing. You can’t see the cabin and the person in the cabin can’t see you. You can shout all you want but the noise of the bulldozer(s) is truly deafening. The ground shakes. In normal circumstances it is hard to get the attention of an operator by shouting(radio to his ear phone is best if you have it) and multiple bullhorns don’t help; just sounds like more garbled harassment. And these operators were harassed and shouted at all late afternoon. To have a good operator of a bulldozer this size and poor visibility of the blade action, they must actually have a ‘feel’ for the machine. They don’t ‘see’ the machine work, they feel it. Nearly every time they back up you will notice that they take a good look at where they were, gauging if the pass was as good as they thought and what adjustments they need to make on the next pass.
I’m not at all surprised “she slipped and fell off the plow“. She got in trouble quickly; I don’t think she had any experience with earth moving equipment nor ever attempted something like climbing onto a moving D-9 bulldozer from the front before. Extremely difficult. The eye witness account suggests she was in control but she was not. She was struggling for her life.
I believe the bulldozers did turn toward Corrie. “There were about eight of us in an area about 70 square meters. Suddenly, we saw they turned to a house they had started to demolish before” I don’t believe the bull dozer operators had an exact count of how many people were harassing them, turned away from approximately eight harassers and back toward a house they could now finish demolishing if they got there before their harassers could enter it again. If an accurate guesstimate, 70 square meters is roughly the size of one side of a volleyball court with 8 people clustered in it. But Corrie wasn’t with them. She was apparently off the main construction track expecting the bulldozer to pass; “the bulldozer driver deviated from the track and apparently was moving a block of concrete that hit the woman” He saw something he could move as he headed toward the house and focused on it ignoring the eight people who weren’t in his path (It is typical for operators to try to be efficient and make every move count).
I believe to this day he can’t imagine that Corrie actually climbed onto the blade, it’s just something anybody familiar with earth moving equipment would not do and cannot fathom why someone would attempt it. But an inexperienced person not respecting the power of the machinery who is enraged and feeling impotent may yield to a very bad impulse. Remember the old washing machine with the ringer? Many a child could not escape the temptation to put their finger on the roller to feel it spin and suddenly their fingers are broken and the turned-demon washing machine is tearing flesh from their fingers and arm. Corrie was in serious trouble the instant she decided to try grasping on to whatever she found to grasp and continue her fight. Don’t know how she managed it but there is no way off after you are on the front of a moving bulldozer. Even if you try to jump out far enough to be able to run on the uneven surface, your first planted foot is likely get caught by the still oncoming blade. The jarring is like a jack hammer but more random. She slipped to her death.
The place for political dissent is in front of politicians and on city squares; not on rugged terrain playing cat and mouse with huge powerful machines.
link
view from Ireland : you said ;
“My admission that I’ve personally known people involved in terrorist activities who don’t conform to the ‘animalistic blood thirsty butcher’ stereotype probably didn’t help my case much with the ‘with us, or against us’ mentality that reigns on the site.”
Posted by: view from Ireland on April 9, 2004 07:18 PM
its not the stereotype , its the murder , and as I can reasonably assume you’re talking about your own homegrowns [either IRA or Protestant matters not ]
-They are equally detestable and not one iota less culpable than siucide bombers or the savages who perpetrated the Madrid bombing.
Their political gripe took precedence over the lives of uninvolved and innocent strangers , thus no regard for forfeiting their lives in pursuit of “making their point ” .
To detest such people , verbally demean them and hate their actions ,does not constitute racism , nor does it qualify LGF as a hate site .
It is quite clear why your statement “did not help your case ” – you don’t have one .
And as far as ” with us ” or “against us ” ?
Its like this, v.f.i. – your either for it absolutely , or against it absolutely ,any position in between is hypocrisy .
Chances are you attempted an excuse and that hypocrisy was detected .
view from Ireland,
What particular terrorist activities? Ashamed of it? Who are your friends? Don’t want to say? I rest my case.
Well, Charles Johnson – I think it is all a pity because you have a great Website that functions as a fine information resource – yet you have to battle the growing reputation of LGF as a “Hate Site” despite you not having a racist bone in your body.
And it stems from perhaps only a dozen Zionist hate-mongers you succor – that despite your professions of ignorance since you “get 3,000 posts a day and thus can’t police comments” – you know exactly who they are, what their favorite expressions of bigotry entail. As for policing, I noticed that you are far more assiduous than you make out to be. A post by a anti-Jewish troll saying “Nuke Tel Aviv” lasts hours at most, but you cosset your Zionist trolls in their bigotry without deletion, bans, or comment.
It would be very simple and easy for you to clean up your Site and get rid of the Bigels, Catons, and Zulubabies and make life easier on yourself and let the content and reputation of LGF rise again. LGF has the potential to be one of the best – but not if you reduce it to a Likud cheerleader Site. (something I roughly said in so many words to you in a private email last June – and since then, your Site has become more extremist). You would also do well to remind yourself now and then that you are a citizen of America, not Israel, and remember that national interests deviate. Israel is NOT our 51st state.
And, if you look at some of the posters you have banned, you see that many were of dissenting opinions that made them instantly and continually subject to a cluster of ad hominem attacks by your “Ariel Sharon’s jackals”. Your jackals were the ones derailing threads, hijacking threads with their personal “Fisking attacks” – VFI, for example, usually started with an on-topic post but was then subject to vicious personal attacks – regularly by Zulubaby, for example – which – if the ideologies were reversed – would have led you to ban Zulubaby after one or two such assaults. But you play your favorites – and let hundreds of ad hominems against VFI or “Gordon” or “Ranbutan” slide. Then finally banned VFI for “derailing threads” when she was on topic to start with and only went OT after a slew of OT personal attacks against her.
In my case, the ad hominems progressed to death threats that included my name and address, method of killing, stating that they were as serious as anything about killing me, leading to me also notifying the police and my ISP…But, since they came from two of Charle’s pet Zionists, nothing was done other than deleting the posts, warning them not to make further death threats, and replying to me by email to say I provoked the death threats (but at the same time NOT excusing any death threats – which Charles thought went over the line. Indeed). And, when a 3rd person decided to throw my name up in a post a few days after the death threats and launch her own attacks – I inappropriately put her name up and said she’d be easy to find (but without any threat of physical harm) leading Johnson to ban me. Charles – if you think that is inaccurate, should the emails we exchanged go up here?
Again, Charles Johnson – you can extricate yourself from the “Hate Site” reputation that is building these days for LGF by simply banning the small ring of hate-mongers and regular posters that all think of you as a friend and a champion of their Cause of more Israeli aggression and colonization of more lands and rampant antipathy for each and every Muslim on the planet. You don’t have to change a single Post you make or anything else – since you personally are not a racist, a bigot, or seeking to foster hatred against all members of a religious group. But LGF’s gathering unsavory reputation is beginning to hurt you as other Sites are now more reluctant to link to you or credit a story you dig up – And, it hurts you as you righteously take on characters like Zuninga, since LGF’s tarnished image as a Site replete with hate speech is becoming more widely known and that gets dragged into any debate you have elsewhere on the Internet.
It would take you only about an hour to post new rules of discourse at LGF and then purge the 12 or so commentors that are the root of most of your Site’s bad reputation – if they refuse to can it. (which most will not)
Chuckg – You don’t seem to be involved much other than being someone who is delighted that LGF exists so that you have a place to freely Muslim-bash and indulge in “Israel Uber Alles” sentiments. You seem to be just a blind “LGF can do no wrong” partisan.
Hi. I’m one of the of the folks who post on LGF with some frequency who, from time to time, has expressed a strongly worded opinion or engaged in hyperbole in order to make a point. I’m gathering, from the 15% or so of this thread that I have read (about 10% at the top and the rest from the bottom) that what I have said on LGF would not be the Flavor of the Month for many people here.
I am neither apologizing here for anything I have ever said on LGF or attempting to soften or ‘take back’ harsh words. What I will say in seeking to put my past statements into a context is that I see the world as one where
1. The nations and peoples we generally consider the ‘West’ are in fact right now at war with a fuzzy entity I (and some others) term militant Islam. I believe (and post from the belief) that there is only the thinnest of distinctions between all of Islam and the aforesaid militant Islam, mainly because I have seen so little evidence (and I read and get news and information widely beyond LGF) that would disabuse me of this notion. I believe that there are those who are, as this is written, planning my demise (among countless others; I’m not saying I’m anybody special) and that it is important that, as a matter of national policy (I am a citizen of the United States), we deal with such people as forcefully and as finally as is possible. I view that as the duty, an as a paramount one at that, of my government to me and to my fellow citizens.
2. That there is not the merest shred of moral equivalence between an act such as a Palestinean terrorist (and all suicide bombers are, in my view, terrorists) blowing up an anonymous Israeli child on a bus and the Israeli Air Force blowing up Sheik Yassin. I note that I am not of the Jewish faith, have posted on LGF opinions that have offended persons there who I believe to be Jewish, but that said believe most strongly in Israel’s right to exist within secure borders (I post as “the Merciless Infidel,” a name given to me by a Jewish LGF frequent poster whose opinions for which I have the utmost respect).
3. That the interests of my country in security and freedom are best served by maintaining the current administration in power, and that the opposition of those I would loosely term as the Left (although also included are many, many politicians such as John Kerry who I view as unprincipled hacks who simply do nothing other than wait for the main chance, then ride it as hard as they can) has become so twisted and corrosive that I worry about the two-party system surviving far beyond the next election. I have voted for Democrats and admire a number of Democrats now serving in office, but feel that the national party’s hatred for George Bush blinds it to what is best for our country.
I am well-educated (a Master’s and a professional degree), I would think compassionate (I worked for Legal Services in a Native American community for three years because I thought it would be a good thing for both me and for the people I could help), open-minded on issues such as immigration (I think the Mexican-American component is the only good thing about California’s otherwise boring and decadent culture) and homosexuality (there is no reason Gays should not be able to marry, but we as a society have not thought through the immense economic effect of such a change). I oppose overzealous prosecutors, pedophiles as priests, smoking pot and art films of any genre, but if you (the larger you) think otherwise, well hey…it is in fact a free country (and demonizing John Ashcroft doesn’t change that fact).
In other words, I’m your next door neighbor. And I post on LGF. Do you now put your daughter (or wife) in a chastity belt, lock up the silverware, bar your doors and start digging a moat because of the proximity of a person you thought before you read this post was just a simple hate-monger?
I would hope not. Engage me in discussion. Engage me in argument. I can be reasoned and considered in what I say (if you will remain likewise). Call me a name, though, or denigrate my intelligence or my politics or my values or my lifestyle or my beliefs and you will read a response that I would hope leaves you feeling like you’ve been poked in the eye (or worse) with a sharp stick. If I am a fascist, well…then you are an a$$hole (or worse).
I think that goes for most every person who regularly posts on LGF. Charles Johnson’s blog, in sum, is no echo chamber, and is filled on a daily basis with the vibrancy of ideas and strongly presented advocacy (often brilliantly advanced). Those who post unpopular or contrary opinions are only called trolls when they act like trolls (and then are treated as such, brutally and deservedly). Johnson does not delete or ban a poster only because he disagrees with him or her.
LGF is not a hate site- rather, I think how it is perceived largely reflects the eye of the beholder.
D. Edgren
Chuck _ I’d suggested searching on LGF, but no matter:
Captain Jacob Dallal of the Israeli army sits down with me in the large West Jerusalem building that houses the government press office. . . . To begin with, he says, Dr. Samir’s house was never under threat of demolition. Although the spot where Rachel was killed is extremely close to Dr. Samir’s home, and although bulldozer tracks from that day seem to be headed in the direction of Dr. Samir’s back wall, Captain Dallal says, “This was not an operation to demolish houses.”
On the day that Rachel Corrie died, the army was using its giant American-made armored bulldozers to search for explosives that might have been planted in the buffer zone by Palestinians, according to Captain Dallal. It was not demolishing homes. (Since the beginning of the second intifada more than 700 homes have been demolished by the Israeli army in Gaza, according to the Palestine Red Crescent Society, the Palestinian equivalent of the Red Cross.) The protesters following the bulldozers were warned to stay away, and the army believed most were complying. “We did not know this woman was in the area,” Captain Dallal says.
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=6483
I think the IDF PR guy is rather more likely to be better informed than some diplomat’s spin merchant across the atlantic, don’t you?
Excaliber – Who mentioned murder? Terrorist activities range well beyond murder. For that matter it’s pretty hard to determine what actually constitutes terrorist activity. One man’s freedom fighter and all that. Were the Stern Gang or the Contras ‘savage’ terrorists too?
I’m not sure what you didn’t grasp in the ‘with us or against us’ comment. I don’t feel any obligation to sign up to the letter of one man’s perspective of how to tackle his security problems. There’s no hypocrisy in forming ones own judgement as to the best course of action to take in tackling terrorism (here’s a suggestion – Invading Iraq against the wishes of the world community on flawed suspicions probably isn’t where I’d start). I’ll form my own opinion on a case-by-case basis, cheers.
Roger – You rest your case. In fact you appear to have rested it before actually presenting it. You do appear to have quite the fevered imagination however. Well done woth that.
Ranbutan – While we will never agree on many matters, it appears we share the same outlook on the hypocrisies of comment moderation on Charles’ site. I’d personally rate Zulubaby as the most strident and yet vacous of the party line regulars on the site. So quick to condemn, so unwilling to form an independent opinion. Insults and cries of anti-semitism appear to be her sole specialities.
Ranbutan : -your words ;
Again, Charles Johnson – you can extricate yourself from the “Hate Site” reputation that is building these days for LGF by simply banning the small ring of hate-mongers and regular posters that all think of you as a friend and a champion of their Cause of more Israeli aggression and colonization of more lands and rampant antipathy for each and every Muslim on the planet.
-end-quote-
And therein lies the true nature of your argument.
Racism ? Hate-site ? ..no….-simply the cunard by which you operate .
You too are guilty of intellectual dishonesty , since there has been no generalisation of “every muslim on the planet ” but simply those displaying savage behavior , hateful intolerance and the act of barbarians .
Even the rants and hyperbole expressed by some posters there , are qualified by that all important fact . And that fact -is the difference between expressing disgust for the terrible behavior of a goodly number of fellow human beings , and your disingenuous charge of racism .
And like so many others who hide behind subtle words and “faux ” noble notions , your main beef is with Israel .
So cut to the chase and just say what you mean .
You are against pro-Israel views .
I am a regular LGF reader and only learned of your site through them. I am a female, 58, registered Democrat. Never voted for a Republican in my life. (though good chance I will vote for Bush this time) Used to give money to NPR- before my perspective changed and I recognized that they had distinct bias. My litmus issues used to be women’s rights, abortion rights, and gay rights. I truly believed Clinton when he said, “I did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinsky.” (although I confess that I understood that he called her a “woman” because had she been a teensy bit younger he would be arguing off child molestation charges…)
That being said, I think that your people that are attacking LGF really need to rethink their priorities. Like television, if you don’t like LGF you really don’t have to go there. Why are you attacking people that have a different world-view than you?
Why are you not looking into the situation in Sudan and Rwanda and urging your officials to do something about the genocides that are going on there? Why is it that the left has made the Palestinian situation/the “Occupation”/the Demonization of Israel the litmus test of liberalism? Your empathy with Muslims, Arabs and countries who harbour terrorism is appalling to some of us.
It is not Christians or Israelis who are threatening to burn Japanese aid workers alive if they do not follow their orders. It is not Christians or Jews or Hindus or Buddhhists who are blowing up buses, restaurants, malls and schools. IN GENERAL, it is impossible to deny, IT IS MUSLIMS.
Does that observation make one racist? Hardly. Though LGF’s make that observation and demonstrate their anger at terrorists, it is not their fault that most of the terrorists are Muslims/Arabs…
It is hardly fair to close one’s eyes to the Truth and then blame others for the fact that their eyes are open!
view from Ireland :
your words;
“Excaliber – Who mentioned murder? Terrorist activities range well beyond murder. For that matter it’s pretty hard to determine what actually constitutes terrorist activity. One man’s freedom fighter and all that. Were the Stern Gang or the Contras ‘savage’ terrorists too?
So suicide bombing is not murder ? Madrid ?-not murder ?
One mans freedom fighter ….. ? Notquite v.f.i.
But I can understand your rationale -given your location . It would be pretty hard to live with the murders of both the IRA and the Protestants if we actually called it murder , so we’ll call it something else eh ?
So we call it terrorism then qualify that description and confuse the issue with ” different types of terrorism ” . Then attempt to support your rational with “it’s pretty hard to determine what actually constitutes terrorist activity ” . Oh really ? I guess that rational is what kept two groups of christians professing to believe in the same Savior , killing each other with much collateral damage , from going insane with guilt and still going to church on Sunday .
I find it extraordinarily interesting how that “rational ” plays out evenly amongst the most diverse geo-political and social stratas.
I fully expect you to start screaming “occupation is terrorism ” ! Therefre we are justified in murdering the percieved occupiers ….and follows -their children for they are the “future occupiers “…and thus old men ,for they “were the former occupiers ” .
Yes , I guess there are many forms of terrorism , but the one that is most reprehensible and deserving of redress is the type that results in MURDER . A fact that you are well acquainted with .
And no v.f.i. , one mans terrorist is not another man’s freedom fighter , one mans terrorist is another mans terrorist .
And finally , yes the Stern Gang and the Contras are to be considered terrorists .
“…only a dozen Zionist hate-mongers you succor ..”
you know, you people use “Zionist” much the same way as others use the n-word. To me that sounds just exactly like Nazis using the word “Jew”. I find it EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE
The poster called Ranbutan….
very nasty stuff there… “Charle’s pet Zionists…? excuse me???
“The corruption of Judaism, as a religion of universal values, through its politicization by Zionism and by the replacement of dedication to Israel for dedication to God and the moral law, is what has alienated so many young Americans who, searching for spiritual meaning in life, have found little in the organized Jewish community.”
Allan Brownfield, “Issues of the American Council for Judaism”, Spring 1997.
Reflections on Zionism From a Dissident Jew
I’m going to leave ZiR up as an excellent example of a certain species, and leave it at that.
E.A. Woodman has a lot of gall to criticize LGF, however, when he posts tripe like this:
“So now in my humble opinion, due mostly to the creation of Israel we have witnessed the attack on the World Trade Centre, the Bali attack, the Madrid bombings, American embassies abroad being attacked, war in Chechnia and one helluva mess in Iraq where everyone is being attacked.”
Ah yes. Blame the Jewwwws. It’s obviously all their fault. This right after his previous contention that “Jews and Arabs lived in peace before Israel was created” was mercilessly shredded as the false canard it is.
Doesn’t know his history. Doesn’t care, really, all that matters is his target the Jews (bet you didn;t know they caused Chechnya). And of course, not a hint of a retreat or apology.
If you’re trying to act as an ad for LGF by highlighting the vile nature of its critics, E.A., you’re doing a fantastic job.
Then there are gems like this…
“By the way Redneck, you ought to get me going on the Catholics sometime. Used to be one until they put a lightning rod on the church steeple. I thought..”Well if you people don’t have enough faith…..”
What a charming human being you are. E.A., I think we’re beginning to learn all we need to know about you. And to top it off…
“Saddam was a cream puff and didn’t constitute a threat to anyone. Bush, who never served in a conflict himself was quite prepared to sacrifice the lives of American troops in a big oil play.”
Gee, I suspect the Kurds, southern Shi’ites, Kuwaitis, Iranians, and many others might beg to differ.
E.A. Woodman, you are quite simply a vile excuse for a human being. I’ve kept you in this thread because I haven’t had time to police it lately, and I’ll keep your posts here as a sterling example of a growing idiotarian mindset that hates Jews and America together – but I sure as hell don’t intend to take you seriously from here on out.
And no, I don’t really want to hear what you think of the Catholics. Thanks anyway.
It takes a lot to get thrown out of LGF. We have higher standards here for our comments section… and after some of the stuff you’ve posted thus far, I’m openly wondering what you would contribute – and why you should remain part of this establishment’s clientele.
If I don’t have what I consider to be a good answer by Sunday, you’re out of here.
Juanita,
Sure Juanita, it is the Muslims today but a few centuries ago if the Pope said to you “Come to Rome Juanita, I have a stake waiting for you. well, he wasn’t inviting you to sample a nice piece of Aberdeen Angus. The good folk at Salem, Massachusetts picked up on this delightful custom as well.
View from Ireland,
Hey Paddy. I’m with you there regarding Zulubaby.
That dude is so full of wind that one day he will fart and blow his own shithouse over. Pardon the lapse into the vernacular folks.
Excalibur,
Understood that the term “collateral damage” was the Pentagon brass’ dismissive, euphemistic term for killing people. Instead of the military spokesman telling the press corp that they had just bombed a building in Bahgdad and killed a couple of hundred civilians, the guy just says instead that the plane hit the target and caused a bit of collateral damage. It sounds better and sanitises the truth. Recall that during the Vietnam War, the ruse there was to designate all civillian casulties as Viet Cong warriors. Great for the body count!
Ed,
Joe,
O.K Joe, I’m from a cultural background where baiting people is a national pastime. You cop it sweet all your life. It is banter that is indulged in at all levels. We just do it to see how the other guy reacts and he does likewise. Now Americans unfortunately don’t appreciate the nuances when their chain is being jerked. So prickly!
We even have TV programmes where comedians interview visiting American celebs in which the poor sod hasn’t been prewarned and has the TV audience in stiches siimply because he has no understanding of the subtleys of the lingo.
Don’t get the idea into your skull that I’m racist, anti- Christian, anti- Muslim or anti-Jewish. You can, so far as I’m concerned believe in anything you like. I am irreligious. That is MY right. If I choose not to be associated with any form of organised religion, it is because I don’t like the idea of ANYONE telling me how to think. Lenin once called religion the opiate of the people. I believe that but it does not make me a raving Marxist either.
Regarding the creation of the state of Israel. From a Jewish perspective, a great idea. But if someone came into your backyard Joe, how would you react? Is your mind that narrow focussed that you can’t see it from the Palestinian viewpoint.
Just remember from your own scriptures that the old Israelites didn’t just walk into a vacant land. They made WAR on the folks there and TOOK it
by force just as the white man took America from the natives. Then your priests justified it by
telling the faithful that God had promised it to them.
Well, by the year 2025 there will be 1.25 billion Muslims in the world so just prepare for more and more resistance. If the conflict could be contained to Israel alone I would say, go for it,
last man standing wins. Unfortunately your little conflict is spilling over into the rest of the world. It was my perception when Israel was created that just such a scenario would unfold. So
if you are simply only interested in a pro Israel stance on your website and not interested in other
viewpoints, fine hit the dump button. It is your proprietary right. I am quite certain that Rupert Murdoch’s reporters and journalists are required not to vaunt their own views but to massage news to that of the proprietor for whom they work. Do otherwise and you are out the door. Censorship is a good way to keep the blinkers on the public. Look at North Korea, Soviet Union any dictatorship. In America of course they institute
Commitees of Un-American Activities to weed out the non-conformists.
Yeah Joe, agree with the high standard of some posters’ writing. Very profound. Better than anything that I could produce. In History 102 I produced a term paper about Pearl Harbour. All the background stuff, the cause and effect of every move, all the facts from beginning to end and the professor wrote across the bottom in big red ink “READS LIKE A NOVEL” so the quality of the writing probably hasn’t improved much. But hell, not ALL postings on this blog read like PHD dissertations either. I just type it straight out of my head.
In conclusion I would just advise you to treat criticism of America, Jews etc as just that, not treason. No one is perfect. A free press keeps us all free. In some of your other posts, I could even over the distance detect the humanity in your words. So Joe, I wish you well and every success in what you are attempting to achieve.
You have a great site .(not like Little Green Stormtroopers) Sorry I failed the test.
Cheers,
Ed.
Joe,
I forgot to add. The bit about the lightning rod on the church steeple. That is just a joke going the rounds at the moment. Apparently it didn’t tickle the American sense of humour. I bet all the Brits reading it had a laugh but honestly when it comes to understanding the nuances of the English language you Yanks are as thick as two short planks. Couldn’t resist chucking that in.
What do you Poms out there reckon, did I at least get this right?
Ed.
Oh , gee , that explains it all E.A.Woodman !
All of us Yanks know you Brits can’t speak proper English anyway .
You do have your own redeeming qualities though , Monty Python , and of course WINSTON -but we all know where his good half came from . LOL .
And when you are so easily misunderstood , I guess you can always offer the excuse of -a private joke , eh mate ?
Nothing wrong with laughing at your own jokes .
Excalibur,
Wrong!
Don’t think too much. You might strain your brain.
One of the Poms will set you straight. You Yanks are so bloody serious, you just can’t help laughing. Yeah I get a lot of fun out of you lot. Anyway lighten up a bit. There’s too much damn serious stuff going on in the world. By the way when the Pres sends you your next call up I hope you have to hump the M60. It’ll serve you right for voting for him. Good luck.
Ed.
p.s Tell Joe to develop a sense of humour. Boy,
kicked off two right wing sites. Wait till the blokes at work hear about this. They reckoned the first time was hilarious.
Oooops ! looks like I hit a sore spot eh Ed ?
Needless to say , I see plenty of your “patented British sense of humor ” on BBC and the local rags .
Funny thing is ,we all must be missing something over here because it has the distinct sounds of handwringing and whining .
But if you say so Ed, we’ll count it as “a sense of humor “.
Hope you can keep “a straight face ” over there in the years to come .
Funny too , is that to detect this “sense of humor ” must be no mean feat , for if one visits the BBC blog ,the immediate impression is that of watching people speak while bound in straightjackets .
Tell me Ed , is ALL you say ,wrapped in this “cavalier sense of humor ” , especially this remark ;
“By the way when the Pres sends you your next call up I hope you have to hump the M60. It’ll serve you right for voting for him. Good luck.”
Ed.
Well dont fret cousin , I did my time years ago , and yes it was a callup -Dec .’69 .
I doubt if you were around then , or atleast cognizant. Perhaps you came of age around say …Argentina ?
and p.s. Mr Ed – I’ve never voted Republican , nor will I ever . I work for a living .LOL
And ironically , got shipped to S.E. Asia due to a Democrat – “a Johnson ” as it were.
So keep up the good humor Ed , and supress that hysteria , me thinks it’s breaking through the surface .
Cheerio Mate .
Excalibur,
Oh, I was around all right.
It might have been your platoon we nearly smoked one day. We usually made sure to keep well away from Yank patrols. You apes had a habit of shooting first and apologies later. Hate to needle you, well I’m enjoyig it actually, but we always regarded your lot as unprofessional, You always made too much noise but we had the drop on this patrol and I swear to God that the boss intended to waste the lot of them if they so much as looked our way. Anyhow they just blundered on. Gawd knows what happened to them,
First time out in the bush for them I think. Anyway sport, emough of that bullshit. I hoped to God it would never happen again, I recall the time when I was a four year old kid living in the bush near a railroad station, One day a troop train pulled in while I was on the station platform. I had been watching this real old guy sitting on the one seat filling a pipe with plug tobacco. I was fascinated because it was a first.
Anyhow this train pulled up. All the carriages
had chalk written messages sprawled over the entire train. Know idea what they were saying.
All the soldiers were in high spirits, yahooing
and letting of steam. I remember thinking “What a great life it must be to be a soldier.” Then this old man, he must have have about eighty years old,
got up and walked over to bunch of guys leaning out of the carriage windowsand saidto them in a loud voice “YOU’LL BE SORRY” . They apparent didn’t hear him the first time, so he said it again “YOU’LL BE SORRY” I reckon he must have done a stint in the trenches during WW1. I remember being puzzled by this at the time and wondering what was wrong with the poor old bugger.
Boy, anyone out there who wants to enlist in the military, take a bit of gentle advice and join the bloody navy. Anyway sport, you are a survivor.
Have a good life. Its been nice chatting to someone who managed to refrain from abusing me, not that I care a stuff what anyone thinks. Don’t ever let the bastards get you down.
Cheers mate
Ed.
Woodman, you are derailing this thread.
I think a focus on the pretty cogent points of ranbutan and vfi would be well in order.
Nice anecdote Ed . War is hell aint it ? No matter the cause or agenda , enlistee or draftee .
“unprofessional ” ??? LOLOLOL , are there ANY professionals at war ? Besides you of course .
As far as “military blunders ” go , I dont think anyone’s without sin .
And the odd thing is, the blunderer makes the opposition appear smart as hell .
“…may have smoked my platoon..”
Well if you truly we there Mr Ed , you’d know that could’ve went either way and for no good reason at all . As to your “estimation ” ?, just some of your wry sense of humor[controlled hysteria -very nicely done -you’re learning] , I believe your tale to be a bit bogus , dont remember seeing any of you “blokes ” – but that could’ve been due to your “jungle-fighting skills ” .LOL……interesting comment though ,on your behalf – I find it rather telling -dont you think ?
Abuse you ? What in heavens for ? Your opinion ?
Never , after all you know what they say about opinions ..
I bear you no animus , since sooner or later we will find ourselves on the same side again .
Carry on Ed .
Just to let neutral people here know. If they think Charles Johnson isn’t able to moderate the comments on his site, this is what I posted on the below thread at #25:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=10592_Palestinians_Seethe_Shriek_for_Holy_War#comments
Does it surprise you that the Pals. in Gaza are not happily waving Israeli flags?
It’s interesting to note that the current clusterfuck in Iraq kicked off not long after Yaasin was whacked. The situation in the West-Bank and Gaza is making things worse for US troops, and any hope of building a democratic Iraq.
For this heinous offence I was banned and my comment deleted within 30 minutes. While comments calling for genocide and sterilization have been left to stand.
I just want to give the lie to the impression that Charles does not spend 90% of his day monitoring the comments section and and checking that the
opinions of his ‘lizardoid minions’ are not contrary to those of the Republican party and Likud.
“Sure Juanita, it is the Muslims today but a few centuries ago if the Pope said to you “Come to Rome Juanita, I have a stake waiting for you. well, he wasn’t inviting you to sample a nice piece of Aberdeen Angus. The good folk at Salem, Massachusetts picked up on this delightful custom as well.”
Wow, that’s relevant. Too bad we don’t have to go back a few hundred years to find a few dozen Islamic atrocities, done in the name of Islam.
BTW, to all who think they are defending us “brown people” by defending savage acts by people who are Muslims, take a look at the face of Radical Islam today:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/001506.php
This guy grew up in the neighborhood I now live in.
agitate, you can go back to 1939-45 when the German army had the motto ‘Gott mit Uns’ on their belt buckle:
http://www.3cblueing.com/Wehrmacht/HTML%20Pages/Equipment/buckle.html
and were responsible for multi millions deaths.
I know you won’t smear the Christian religion on this count. So I urge you not not smear Judaism on the account of Meir Kahane or Islam on the account of bin Laden.
First, if you read my posts, you will notice I refer to radical Islam, and those who commit terrorist acts in the name of Islam. How exactly is this a smear on all Muslims? Are you suggesting all Muslims are radical jihadi murders? I’ll guess you realize that the nearly 2 billion Muslims in the world are comprised of various individuals, cultures and sects.
Don’t you smear thinking Muslims with broad mis-characterizations, and don’t jump to assuming judgments about my character.
I knew someone would try to make Hitler into someone acting in the name of Christ. Are you trying to say that terrorist acts by Christians since WWII are equal to those of Radical Islam? BTW, Hitler acted in the name of the State, based on voices in his head and beliefs in German mythology. Besides his anti-Christian activities like séances and murder of the sick and mentally ill, the Christian thing doesn’t stick with him, regardless of what came out of his mouth.
Please, don’t accuse me of smearing Judaism, the Jews at the Seder I attended last night would beg to differ with you. Again, Don’t try to smear my character with judgmental assumptions. And to any anti-Jewish Christians out there: you need to pick up your Bible and learn how to read it.
Eric Rudolph, the abortion clinic bomber terrorist, also did what he did in the name of Christ–he is a terrorist deserving of death in my opinion, and I am a Christian who opposes abortion.
Your sophistry is good, but not good enough. You appear to be trying to turn the discussion to my character rather than staying with the subject of LGF not defending crimes because of a person’s religion.
I will not defend terrorism of any color or religious label. If you don’t like that so many people, of all colors, are committing herendous acts in the name of Allah, take it up with them.
Excalibur,
Hope the plug hasn’t been pulled on me yet. Beginning to think that you and I are the only two sane people on this thread. Just gotta tell you this one. When we were in basic training, (We did a full year, not your 3 monthes then learn on the job stuff, so we were already quite proficient before we toured.)we had a guy in our section who was the beat shot I ever saw in my life. He was bush boy who when he joined up wanted to go into the artillery like the previous generations of his family right back to the Boer War. Well I dunno about the Yanks but in our mob
if you can shoot straight , it doesn’t matter a hoot what you want you are destined for the infantry. Somebody should have prewarned him.
Anyway, on your first day out on the range the army requires you to fire a group so that the armourers can zero your rifle. Well Johnno fired
this tight little group of shots and after his SLR was zeroed never missed shooting a perfect score. You know what’s next. He singled out for becoming the platoon sniper. The army gives you pyschological testing to determine your suitability then lavishes all its care and nuturing on you. I think that Johnno on his own had stumbled onto the Japanese Zen technique where the mind controls the body. He always said that seemed to slip into a kind of trance before squeezing the shot off.
Well he went to special schools to equip him for the job while we did our jungle training. We left to go on tour leaving him behind. We had already had a few patrols through the bush before he arrived back to rejoin the unit. The poor bastard arrived late at night after a plane trip and had about an hour of sleep before he’s woken up. You know what it’s like. If you don’t have a sense of humour, don’t join the army. Anyhow, we assemble to draw our rations and ammo and the lieutenant
tells Johnno that the machine gunner is crook and he is designated to carry the M60.
Well the poor little sod did a manful job all morning before we stopped to eat. We ate while poor bloody Johnno pulls sentry duty. Suddenly someone spots a cyclist on the track below our lay up spot and the loot say to Johnno “I want to interogate that bloke, fire a few rounds in front of him.” Well the guy was about 400 metres away so Johnno aims, bang. His squeeze on the trigger was so fleeting that he only fired one single round. That is possible with an M60. Result. The guy falls off the bike and lies dead still. The loot was furious. He looks at Johnno and says “You killed him!” Well the rest of us are just standing there with grins on our faces reckoning that it was just pure arse. The greatest
fluke shot of the war. I reckon Johhno was quite pissed off at this stage but he just looks the loot straight in the eye and says “What do you think I joined the Army for?” Well the loot almost has apolexy and says “I’ll deal with you later soldier.” Then he tells the sergeant to take two men and bury the poor guy. This takes a while then the sarge is back waving an AK and a satchel. He fronts the lieutenant and says “Right through the head. The guy was on his way to work”
Well Johhno is off the hook and still maintains that it was a deliberately aimed shot. Fortunes of war, eh?
Cheers mate,
Ed.
Kahane and Bin Laden in the same breath…No lack of disproportion there.
It would be funny, if it weren’t so…delusional.
agitate, I’m not saying you are smearing all Muslims, but to get back to the original point, to wit, Charles presents the worst side of Arab/Palestinian culture (and much of it is very bad) without number one, putting some of the pictures and statements he presents in context and number two referring to some of the more positive aspects of Mid-East culture, some of which are even shown on MEMRI, but never LGF.
If the haters of Islam are bad then they must be rejected and we must encourage others within their faith to do likewise, but if we are silent to the haters within the West, then we have no moral authority to ask for their change.
If this is too ‘PC’ for many of you, please present an alternative short of war with 1.2 billion people.
woodman,you’re an inventive bollocks at least
Ranbutan and view from Ireland, my two favourite Jew-haters. Hi guys! Desperation forcing you to troll other websites now? Shame.
Ranbutan droolz:
Likud cheerleader Site
Charle’s pet Zionists
I wonder why you were banned? Hmmm.
Guys, this isn’t LGF, and the level of (not-argument making) is getting kinda high.
Can I gently suggest that you go back ot making points and quit with the “Ranbutan droolz:” stuff?
A.L.
Armed Liberal, sure, I’ll leave. Someone told me that Ranbutan and view from Ireland were trashing me over here so I came to see for myself. There is long time animosity between us. I don’t troll other sites trashing Ranbutan but it’s interesting to see that he’s still obsessing. Oh well, won’t disturb you again.
Um, Armed Liberal? Honestly, maybe zulubaby’s post doesn’t contain much, but she’s been attacked by three people here. Ranbutan: ” If he was not so biased, he would have purged his peanut gallery of Zionist hate merchants long ago.” (talking about zulubaby). EA Woodman, “That dude is so full of wind that one day he will fart and blow his own shithouse over. Pardon the lapse into the vernacular folks.”. and VFI “I’d personally rate Zulubaby as the most strident and yet vacous of the party line regulars on the site. So quick to condemn, so unwilling to form an independent opinion. Insults and cries of anti-semitism appear to be her sole specialities.” It’s unfair of you to tell zulubaby that *she’s* the one to blame for a low content ratio when she’s only responding to personal attacks. All three of these freaks attacked her without rhyme or reason because they hate to see an assertive woman who supports Israel and posts on lgf. I can’t figure out any other reason, really. VFI’s accusation of inability to form an independent opinion and specialization in insults and cries of anti-semitism are wholly inaccurate, as a cursory leaf through her posts on lgf will make clear. At any rate, I’m pretty surprised that you’re picking on her, but leaving those three alone.
And evariste, I didn’t mesan to single out zulubaby – I would have if I’d meant to – but to try and convince them to wrap up the mudslinging and try and move toward making some interesting arguments.
And zulubaby, you’re more than welcome to stay, just note that our desire is that this is ‘argument’ not ‘disagreement’ or ‘abuse’ … they’re down the hall.
A.L.
Armed Liberal, OK. It seemed that you were singling zulubaby out by quoting her characterization of Ranbutan’s sorry ravings. zulubaby has a point, those two were banned from lgf and now come back to haunt conversations about lgf so they can relive their glory days. It’s pathetic, frankly. I’m glad you weren’t intentionally singling her out. This post probably fits into your category of “not-argument-making”, apologies for that. It seems as if the thread’s nearly burned out anyway, but I’ll participate more usefully if it revives.
It’s quite interesting how many of the lgf detractors develop an obsession with zulubaby. On lgf we joke that “she’s wearing that special perfume again”. I think it’s got more to do with her zeal in defending Jews, and their inability to pin any racist tail on her donkey but infuriation with her posts anyway. zulubaby’s elephantine memory of posters’ previous statements on lgf doesn’t help matters, it just infuriates them more when she points to their own posts of months or years ago as contradiction to whatever lies they’re trying to tell lately.
My postings were intended as food for thought for Charles Johnson, for the most part.
He has a great site, but through his indulgence of haters like Zulubaby – runs the risk of tarnishing LGF as a “Hate Site”. Johnson knows that he has only about a dozen regular “haters” to purge to climb back to the respectibility LGF deserves. By now, Johnson also probably realizes that as a Christian, he is as welcome to live and be buried later on in the “Jewish State” as a Muslim or a pile of pig guts. So he has to reckon with his conflating support of Zionism with advocacy of Anti-terrorism.
And, what is the difference between attacking armed Jewish Settler colonies with Indians attacking a wagon train? Were the American Souix, Cherokees, Crow, Apaches all “Terrorists”?
Fortunately, America was never much of a Colonialist Nation. We didn’t follow our conquests of the Philippines, Germany, Japan, Panama, Grenada – with founding American-only Condos on the barbed wire laced Hill above the natives.
We were far smarter than that, though we seem to have been made the USA wallet and tools of Zionists in the last 2 1/2 decades.
If we had been Settlers, we would have seen Japanese “terrorists” still assailing American colonies in the foothills of Mt. Fuji in 2003. If the Serbs had been unmolested, or the Germans, they would have gone decades of dealing with Poles, Bosnians engaging in insurgencies against the Serb, Nazi “Ancient Sacred Tribal Homelands”.
Johnson has his major pending cleanup chores to reclaim LGF as something other than a hate site set up for his Zionist regulars. Everiste is simply an apologist for the sort “Lebensraum” advocated by Apartheid South Africa refugee Zulubaby. I agree with VFI – we are poles apart in our politics, but she was viciously attacked with words that would have got her banned in hours if she had reciprocated in like manner to the verbal assaults of Zionist fascists like Zulubaby. Her characterization of Zulubaby as perpetually vacuous yet obscenely and constantly angry, is on mark.
IMO, Armed Liberal’s critique of LGF is still valid. Charles Johnson is just placed on notice that he has a potentially top site, that he is personally mostly removed from hate talk – but he just has to purge a dozen or so rabid Zionists that are as hateful as their Islamofascist opposition. Once they go – it will be easier for Charles to regain some credibility as a fair-handed Blogster and objective Editor. Until then, LGF justly is tainted as holding Israel either 1st amongst nations or as America’s 51st State – and Europe, Canada, Asia, and the ME as nations of craven, anti-Semitic bloodthirsty animals.
BTW – Juanita, Zionism is a political-fascist movement, not a statement of one’s religion or ethnicity. Before you get huffy and equate using the Z-word with the N-word, understand what Zionism is.
One year in basic training !
By jove Ed , are you an Aussie ?
Speaking of call-ups , my cousin who had been drafted along with myself , has been a reservist for the past 20 years or so , and is serving in the Army reserves – got called up for the 91’war , served in Kuwait and is presently here in the States at an Army Airlift Command ,was told yesterday that he has been made regular Army for the next two years .
He got “drafted ” a second time lol !!
There’s another war coming Ed , a big one ,I can smell it , and everyone will have a good reason to fight this time around .
See ya when the shooting starts .
btw – I do have a military hero ,and he happens to be a Brit – Col. Sleeman , you can check him out in a book titled “the Stranglers ” .
good luck Ed -we’re all gonna need it .
Ranbutan , you speak the typical arab-propaganda speak. Zionism is the desire of Jews wanting to re-establish a homeland , and that being their native-Israel .
Tell me Ranbutan , can you form the word ” Israel ” , or do you use the term “Zionist Entity ” ?
Ranbutan, may I ask why you’re still obsessing about me? Give it up already, you’re making a fool of yourself.
Armed Liberal, I apologize, I don’t mean to cause trouble on your site but if you’re going to allow someone like Ranbutan to post here and he’s going to slander me then I’m hitting back. He’s a well-known anti-Semite and deserves to be slammed at every opportunity. Believe me, Charles gave him several warnings before he banned him for his hateful commentary.
Ranbutan, I’m gonna close this thread; no one’s made an interesting argument here in a while, and I’m not interested in being a proxy for LGF.
It’s funny, because I also agree that the settlements are a huge barrier to peace; sadly, the immoral, illegitimate leadership that the Palestinian people have had foisted on them is incapable of managing the political process that would have led to their dismantlement, or opening to market forces.
But you’re way off if you think that the barbed wire and barriers are there ro preserve Israeli real estate encroachments. The Israleis founded the settlements for a variety of reasons (some unpleasantly expansionist), but one major reason was their concern that no Arab army be able to occupy the Golan, Gaza, or the West Bank.
They may have pulled the trigger first in 1967, but the responsibility for the war rests squarely on Arab shoulders.
And they may not treat the Palestinians well, but other populations were resettled after WW II, and were recieved with somewhat more open arms than the Arab brothers showed.
But that’s a topic for another day.
Thanks for playing everyone, thread’s closing now.
A.L.
Everyone:
I’ve been a regular reader and commenter at LGF for almost two years now. I’ve seen the good and the bad there and I have to say that all those who claim to be banned for merely disagreeing with Charles’ policy on banning folks are, quite simply, lying. In the time that I’ve been there, I’ve commented a couple of times to Charles that I thought it might be a good idea to censor some of the more egregious posts and definitely to ban bigel and Camel Prophet. Charles has not responded to the posts I’ve made and has decided to continue to exercise his editorial discretion – but that’s his right. And Charles has never banned me or even suggested that he would.
Meanwhile, all of those claiming that Charles has a trigger finger on banning folks who are anti-Zionist or Jew-haters need only consider one of Ranbutan’s first commments on LGF:
This comment, I’ll have you note, did not get Ranbutan banned. In fact, Ranbutan made similar comments for about a year, as far as I can tell, and only was banned when he threatened to create trouble for another poster at the LGF site in the off-line, real-life world.
Ranbutan, while a serious Jew-hater, was able to write his comments with a certain modicum of rationality – in other words, despite his Jew-related-issue-derangement, he was able to make some fairly interesting (if Buchananite) points – which is not to say that I generally agreed with him. On the other hand, I did occasionally agree with him and found some of his statements interesting.
Lilith wrote, of LGF:
Since I’m not familiar with your positions other than this thread, I can’t say that I’m sure what you mean about a “balance” with respect to Israel. However, as it is typically used, it refers to the US and/or LGFers overly favoring the Israeli side. For someone who apparently understands the Islamofascist movements goals and inspirations, it’s a mystery to me why you would make an exception for the Jewish state in your otherwise strong defense against that creed.
Even ignoring the tactics used by each side, why exactly would you (or anyone) support the side that murders “collaborators”, executes homosexuals, has a farcical election – and then decides not to have any more of them, does not even conceive of free speech, and is explicitly waging a war of extermination?
As to E.A. Woodman, aka Ed, I’d suggest you have a good read of Palestine Facts in order to learn a little bit of the basic history of the area.
And even before you do that, perhaps you should rethink some of your basic assumptions. I’ll grant you that perhaps the handful of Arabs who were living in mandatory Palestine as Israel came into existence were not happy with what happened and perhaps they decided, as a consequence, to oppose Israel. But why, in your frame of reference, would all of the other Arabs join in? And supposing that they opposed Israel – is it not then natural for Israel to oppose them? Or is the only way that a Jew can exist, in your mind, is if the Jew is at the feet of someone more powerful than he? And if the Jew manages to stand up to the Arab, does the Arab still continue to have rights to attack the Jew forever without ever granting the Jew the right to attack back?
My family has lived in Arab countries for five hundred years (on one side), so I understand exactly the consequences of the actions that you advocate.
One final point, Ed. While it’s all very nice and good to blame every action every Arab has ever taken against the rest of the world on Israel, don’t you find that it rather dehumanizes the Arabs you are supposedly defending? By saying that they cannot be held responsible for their actions, you effectively believe that they are children. By analogy, if a neighbor’s kid was beat up by his father, you would believe that if your boy were to rape a girl, it would all be the fault of that other father.