So I said I’d take a shot at the Kerry speech I think he should have given, both about Vietnam and about VVAW.
I’m working on it, but first, let me take a moment to give some personal background that is certainly more than a bit relevant. As a good suburban family, we have a couple of picture walls in our house. One of the pictures is a water-damaged, grainy, B & W print of me…marching, with my organizer’s armband at an antiwar demonstration in May of 1970 in Westwood Village.
It was a successful demonstration; we got a good turnout, the police were overwhelming (giving us the media’s sympathy). Nixon had just revealed his invasion of Cambodia – which turned out so well, after all.
I helped organize other demonstrations against the war in college, but drifted away from the New Left for a variety of reasons (many of which I touch on in my blogging; my personal philosophy sadly hasn’t drifted much in 35 years). One of them was a point I made in a 1973 paper, in which I suggested that the New Left was flawed by the inescapable fact that it represented to many of its participants an adolescent rebellion against their parents instead of a meaningful effort to build a new politics. By 1972 or 3, I’d simply seen too much of it from the inside.I’m not ashamed of those stances today (although I’m glad no recordings exist – outside of some dank FBI storage boxes, I’m sure – of my rhetoric then). I say this for two simple reasons: 1) I was flat wrong about the threat posed by the Soviet Union and the Communist movement in the 50’s through the 70’s. I was in good company, but I was just plain wrong. The challenge was real, and had to be confronted, by force if necessary. 2) Vietnam was, however, the wrong place to do it. It was an unnecessary war. Ho Chi Minh had approached Harry Truman, asking for recognition and aid, and the Viet Minh had cooperated with the OSS in fighting the Japanese. In Ho’s words:
These security and freedom can only be guaranteed by our independence from any colonial power, and our free cooperation with all other powers. It is with this firm conviction that we request of the United Sates as guardians and champions of World Justice to take a decisive step in support of our independence.
What we ask has been graciously granted to the Philippines. Like the Philippines our goal is full independence and full cooperation with the UNITED SATES. We will do our best to make this independence and cooperation profitable to the whole world.
Any time for a decade or so after this – probably into the late 50’s or early 60’s – the U.S. could have taken the side of the Vietnamese people and supported their nationalist desires. We didn’t.
We got a Communist-backed war of national liberation. Our bad, we chose the French over the Vietnamese. Lots of good that’s done us…
My guess is that some people will agree with and understand my position; others will debate me but still find my positions understandable. I don’t see any unbridgeable gap between where I was then and where I am now, and I think that most people would agree that these positions and the change betwen them at least makes some sense. I was wrong about the threat posed by the USSR and China through their proxies. That makes me as wary about adopting Trent-like positions on the level of threat posed as about adopting the rosy views of John Quiggin – without careful examination of all sides. I was wrong before, after all.
But given that I do see a major threat coming from the Islamists – as evidenced by 3,000 dead who were mostly civilians – I do continue to think that the challenge is real and must be confronted.
That’s how I got from there to here.
Kerry needs to do at least this well in explaining how he got from antwar undergraduate to Navy officer with an ‘interesting’ record to a leader in the antiwar movement who told lies to a presidential candidate who supports the invasion of Iraq. He needs most of all to explain his ‘gentlemen’s heoism’ in service, and do it quickly.
What disqualifies Kerry in my eyes is that 30+ years on and Kerry still hasn’t admitted he made a mistake. Here is a man incapable of learning from error. Or worse he is still on the side of the communists. Flip a coin.
============================
John Kerry told us cut and run was the right thing to do in Vietnam. Three million died. He is propposing withdrawal from Iraq.
I suppose three million was not enough.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
OK, M. Simon.
What was the right thing to do in Vietnam?
If you want to attempt to understand Kerry’s stand on the war with Iraq, check out “*Kerry Iraq Documentary*”:http://www.kerryoniraq.com
Here’s a quote from Rudy Giuliani, Former Mayor Of New York City: *”Every American Should See This.”*
SBD
Praktike,
I’ll let M Simon speak for himself. But as for me, I’m not sure what the right thing to do in Viet Nam would have been. I do know the communists slaughtered thousands and made life so miserable for thousands more that they risked their lives fleeing in leaky boats. That’s why I have a very hard time believing AL’s contention that we could have turned Uncle Ho into a pro-American democrat. He was a communist. As for AL’s quote of his flattery of the US, communists lie. For a committed communist, the end of the “workers paradise” (and the party’s power) justifies absolutely any means. I tend to think the right thing to do in Viet Nam would have been to win the war, which we could have done. We lost that war politically, not militarily. However, if we weren’t in it to win, we should never have been in it at all. And by the strict test of national interest, it was a waste. As a professor of mine in college put it, “What’s in Viet Nam? Rice. We can grow all the rice we need in Louisiana.”
That’s a good point, Fred.
One nagging question I have with the zero-sum nature of Cold War geopolitics was that every country was viewed as important for symbolic reasons no matter what its true value to our national power was. I suppose people would argue that it was vital to consistently demonstrate that being an American client was better in military, economic, and social terms than being a Soviet client, and therefore we had to contest everywhere. Another argument might be that the US by virtue of its vastly superior economy could afford to contest every podunk country despite an unfortunate cost/benefit ratio, whereas the Soviets would only exhaust themselves by following the same rule.
After withdrawal, the right thing to do may have simply been to continue funding South Vietnam’s army. From what I understand, after the Tet offensive the Viet Cong were effectively obliterated as a fighting force in the South, and by the time substantial U.S. force withdrawals were over the ARVN forces were able to keep the North Vietnamese Army out of South Vietnam. The collapse started after Congress cut off military funding for ’em. Maybe that would have been a heavy financial burden to bear, but we’d already lost around 50,000 lives there — we could have at least tried to ensure that it wasn’t altogether in vain.
Form 180. Release the records. Form 180. Release the records. Form 180. Release the records. Form 180. Release the records. Form 180. Release the records.
The records are open and available to all and have been. According to Newsmax the records are available for viewing at Kerry’s campaigne headquarters. Because they are the personal property of Sen. John Kerry, you may not pull a Sandy Berger and walk out with them, inadvertently misplace them, or put them in your pants. But they are there.
Form 180, as Newsmax helpfully points out, gives a third party power-of-attorney to any and all. Since you are so filled with the full-disclosure religion, praktike, will you please grant me power-of-attorney to avail myself of your personal medical history? I would find it useful in discerning if your commentary is legitimate expression, or if it is influenced by any active medications in your bloodstream; not that you do, but it would sure help clarify that you don’t. You don’t have anything to hide, right?
huh?
Obleus,
You should have targeted the your comment at M. Simon.
But on the substance of you comment: in is traditional for presidential candidates to release rather more private information to the public than commenters on blogs.
In addition, Kerry has made his Vietnam service the centerpiece of his campaign. This means that the public ought to see his records, just as they have seen Bush’s TANG records. If I (or M. Simon) made my medical history a centerpiece of comments here, then demanding access to those records might make sense. But as it stands, your request makes no more sense than asking for Kerry’s grammer-school transcript (of course, if he wants to reach futher into the past to justify his candidacy, maybe it will come to that).
For my part, I’m sick of Vietnam. That was my father’s war, and he didn’t even go. It took place far from any American soil, and it was over before I was born. On the other hand, my first child will soon be coming into a world in the midst of a new war, being fought in part in our own cities, which interests me rather more. Memo to Kerry: shut up about Vietnam, I don’t care, and I’m not impressed by people who do.
praktike,
The right thing to do in Vietnam was to win it and support the South.
General Giap thought he had lost the war after Tet until he saw the American News reports. So were it not for the American press we would have won the war in ’68. The North was ready to talk.
But they read the papers and hung on. In ’71 Kerry after consulting with the Communists of the North and South came up with about a dozen talking points. Giap says Kerry’s “atrocities” testimony and the talking points were of great help to the communists. I have to agree they swayed me.
Now let us do the math suppose 5,000 deaths a year was what it was going to cost Americans to keep the South free. Time 30 equals 150,000 American deatths to save 3 million non-combatants. On your scale of liberality do you find that a fair exchange – not counting of course living under what we like to call a police state?
I think the war was winable and had Congress in 1974 declined to help when the North attacked the South things might have been much different. BTW all they were asking was for material support. No troops. Well the Democratic Congress was tired of paying for war. The peace killed 3 million. No war indeed.
We did have a very big problem with the government we inherited from the French. They seem to leave uncovered droppings every where.
In short the evidence shows the war was definitely won or at minimum winnable.
I would have won. In hind sight of course. In the day I was a surrender monkey.
OTOH the communist with the help of Kerry had a much better propaganda machine than America. In the end however, the leopard could not change its spots.
===============
John Kerry is no liar. I believe his 1971 Senate testimony when he said he committed war crimes.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
Rob Lyman,
You don’t understand the relationship of Vietnam to this war.
Vietnam is where Kerry gave the US Military a reputation as intentional baby killers. Fixing this false history is going to be a big help in this and future wars.
BTW you covered all my points about the records except one. The release has been selective. Like where are the Purple Heart wound records? Missing in action.
How about his duty records. His crew members claim he was not in Cambodia. At least for Christmas. When asked they didn’t say he got the date wrong they said – never happened. Interesting don’t you think?
Well any way this is going to eat at him like hydroflouric acid eats glass. Slowly. Making nice frosted patterns.
I don’t think he can win with this albatross around his neck. So far 20 pages of a book have kept Kerry busy for 10 days. The book is 200 pages. The campaign has 80 some days to go. I’ll let you do the math. Then he will have Bush working his Senate record. I don’t think Kerry is going to have a lot of time for offence.
BTW I thought the left was the party of open records. Shouldn’t your man Kerry set the example?
========================
Why wasn’t Kerry reprimanded for throwing chickens against the wall?
Because he didn’t throw the chickens. He used a machine gun.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
Fred,
If you ask around in the Vietnam neighborhood, many of the nations, Thailand included, are of the opinion that engaging Vietnam kept them free.
You might as well ask what is the value of Iraq? Short answer – long border with Iran.
======================================
Do you know why the CIA man gave John Kerry the magic hat?
So John could get to Cambodia without a boat.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
The “right things” in Vietnam:
1) before 1949, support Ho Chi Minh in independence, even against DeGaulles ego desire to re-establish French empire.
after failing this,
2) in 1956, accept the democratic election of the Soviet supported Ho as a victorious independence general, even if he IS a “communist” (like Tito). (Would likely have been anti-Chinese, not so expansive commie; AL missed this)
3) “NOT” have Gulf of Tonkin lies in 1964, to justify an increase in US forces. Keep lower level support, focus on house building and home ownership in S. Vietnam.
4) Prior to 1968, END THE DRAFT. Increase pay of enlistees if more are needed; reduce other gov’t programs and/or increase taxes. Can’t really fight a war “for freedom” with “slaves” (professionals = mercenaries, yes).
5) Hire more S. Viets as fighters, pay them directly, run them from US officers. S. Viet corruption was terrible.
6) after 72, Nixon needs to argue that we give S. Viet the weapons and money it needs to defend itself, and have THEM do the bombing, heavy lifting — with US support before a 1-2 year phased retreat. Accept it as a proxy war, our S. Viets armed by us vs. their N. Viets, armed by them.
The political mistake was 1) no plan to defeat N. Viet IN N. Vietnam, and 2) the draft, forcing Americans to go fight, kill, die.
praktike,
You may be correct that in fact there was no way to retrieve Vietnam. That still begs the question. Was it right for Kerry to help our enemies?
Shouldn’t he at least apologize for that? Jane Fonda did. Even if she was insincere, which may or may not be the case.
====================================
Did you hear the one about John Kerry?
He got his Purple Hearts the old fashioned way, a bump, a scratch, and rice in the ass.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the Records.
praktike,
I might add that what I find so amusing discussing stuff with you is that it is like looking into a mirror that takes me back 30 years.
Not only have I heard all your arguments (themes) before. I made them myself. With just as much passion. I had all the answers. Yep. And they were all wrong too.
================================================
John Kerry a man who faced shot and shell in Vietnam is afraid of paper in America.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
M. Simon-
I’m glad you’re amused. However, I would urge you to read the Pentagon papers and most notably NSSM 1. The bottom line is that our own government did not believe that the military measures we were taking would solve the strategic problem. RAND recommended several options in response to Kissinger’s questions; he choose to simultaneously escalate *AND* withdraw rather than to choose a policy that made sense. Why?
Praktike,
“Col. Harry G. Summers”:http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/SummersObitText.htm (dec.) wrote a book called “On Strategy”:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0891415637/104-8723407-1023922?v=glance that analyzed the Vietnam War and discussed what a winning strategy would have looked like, It makes for fascinating reading.
Here’s “an in-depth interview with Col. Summers on the subject”:http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/conversations/Summers/
I would argue with A.L., insofar as Ho’s willingness to work with America previously may represent a major missed opportunity (or it may not; opinions differ on whether this was a serious offer or mere rhetoric, and Mao had also fought the Japanese) – but once North Vietnam had become a Soviet proxy, decisions must be made in light of the current state and not the past.
Beyond that, it was 3 North Vietnamese Army divisions – and not a bunch of guerillas – that finally invaded and conquered South Vietnam in 1975. Most of the Viet Cong had been wiped out in the Tet offensive, a fact that suited the North Vietnamese just fine.
The fate of Cambodia, a genocide by any standards, is also worth contemplating when one evaluates “the right thing to have done”.
That said, absent a credible strategy for victory, sacrificing soldiers to a war made unwinnable by political decisions is immoral and profoundly harmful. One cannot grant one’s enemy massive zones of immunity and sanctuary, and extend the front from 150 miles to over 1,000 miles, and expect anything but an endless war with little to no chance of victory.
As Trent has pointed out before, “the right thing to do” in these cases is for the generals in charge to resign under protest, rather than pretending that all was well. Elected representatives can then force the issue toward either a serious war or disengagement.
Vietnam looks like a winnable war in hindsight, but whether or not it could have been won by America as it was at that time is questionable.
My first memories of the Viet Nam War come from the time I was quite young, (maybe 9 or 10 years old) and Joe Katzman eloquently sums up my opinion of the time
an opinion of mine that remains unchanged.
When I got older (into my teen years and college) Viet Nam took on new associations, which were made more vivid by the presence of millions of refugees from South East Asia. Now Viet Nam meant boat people and re-education camps. Cambodia meant a horrible, gruesome atrocity, something beyond my ability to adequately imagine. For me, and for most people my age, these associations remain dominant. They are what the Viet Nam War was _about_ . John Kerry and the press talk about Viet Nam, but they do not talk about these important issues. They completely ignore my generation’s questions about Viet Nam. What did your military service and/or your protesting do to prevent or to enable the re-education camps, the boat people, and the killing fields? To me, these are the important questions, and I am deeply frustrated that no one in the main stream media wants to ask them.
“I suggested that the New Left was flawed by the inescapable fact that it represented to many of its participants an adolescent rebellion against their parents instead of a meaningful effort to build a new politics.”
Hallelujah! I was there. I saw it then. I would add that the “New Left” indulged as well in that smug sense of moral and intellectual superiority that so often attends a narcissistic adolescence. And I would suggest that attitude remains to this day in those of the “New Left” who have been unwilling to admit error, and who have been cruelly consigned by nature to become today’s “Old Left”.
*M. Simon*
bq. _”Vietnam is where Kerry gave the US Military a reputation as intentional baby killers. Fixing this false history is going to be a big help in this and future wars.”_
In the big picture of the times the notion of the US Military being representative of intentional baby killers is not all Kerry’s doings. One can certainly argue he played a vital role in bringing the notion to a national level coupled with a following of such magnitude that it could not be ignored.
More to the point though here is why it can’t be fixed as evidenced by _Rob Lyman_
bq. _”For my part, I’m sick of Vietnam. That was my father’s war, and he didn’t even go. It took place far from any American soil, and it was over before I was born. On the other hand, my first child will soon be coming into a world in the midst of a new war, being fought in part in our own cities, which interests me rather more. Memo to Kerry: shut up about Vietnam, I don’t care, and I’m not impressed by people who do.”_
Sadly I’d have to agree that most of the younger generation of voters don’t know enough and don’t care to know enough about Vietnam. My own kids are included in Rob’s assessment. They don’t want to read or talk about it.
AL
Good post – and kudos for coming out with your statements #1 and #2. Many still can’t do that.
I do have an issue with #2 – Vietnam being the wrong war / place. Yes, I do agree that we made what could have been a fundamental mistake in 1946-1954 regarding Vietnam. The US didn’t take a strong enough moral role expressing displeasure in the reluctance of France, in particular, to divest itself of it’s colonial lands or start the process to divest.
However, there also was the risk, if the US supported Ho Chi Minh during this time frame that today, we would be faced with another case of the US supporting a dictator in history or supporting a leader that after using the US to gain power, would turn against the US and its interests.
We got into that war via deceptive measures, and the American people were lied to by President Johnson / Robert McNamara. Our own domestic turmoil added to the impact of these lies, and ultimately led us to abandon the South Vietnamese people to the North’s invasion in 1975.
I don’t anyone can be proud of what happened in Vietnam or Cambodia after 1975 – the re-education camps, the brutal treatment, the need for millions to flee in the boat lifts. There was a moral obligation to prevent this from happening – but we never accepted this as that because of the lies and deceptions.
In my mind, this was a right war, fought the wrong way.
*Download John Kerry FBI FILES*
2,701 pages of FBI files dating from 1967 to the end of 1971, taken from 20,000 pages of files maintained by the FBI on the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and its members. This material was originally released in 1999 to author and historian Gerald Nicosia, after seeking their release under the Freedom of Information Act in 1988. This set released in June 2004 contains pages of documents not released to Nicosia in 1999.
There are a total of 9 rather large PDF’s listed in the FBI FILES category. I will try to post the entire Vietnam Volumes including the 2 Volumes on the VVAW in zip files soon.
“Click Here”:http://www.reelectbushin2004.com/Default.aspx?tabid=312
Lots of interesting stuff including descriptions of his medical exams that mention only scratches and a small wound to his buttocks from shrapnel. All reports say he was immediately returned to duty on the same day.
SBD
Excellent post SBD. I’m a leftie that would like to see Kerry elected soon, but I value your committment to getting facts out in the open where they belong.
Incidentally, I erred earlier in properly attributing remarks that I replied to, for which I wish to apologize. M. Simon, I got mixed up.
Kerry appears to have been a _very_ ambitious young man. Perhaps these are the types that one finds at times when a war is being executed. I have my own doubts regarding the veracity of his record, but I am sure he ranks beyond who we currently have serving as Commander In Chief and I intend to support his candidacy. I am grateful that, if truth shall prevail, it is likely bloggers like SBD that will supply it.
“6) after 72, Nixon needs to argue that we give S. Viet the weapons and money it needs to defend itself, and have THEM do the bombing, heavy lifting — with US support before a 1-2 year phased retreat. Accept it as a proxy war, our S. Viets armed by us vs. their N. Viets, armed by them.”
Am I wrong in thinking that that is what he did do — not just argue for it, but implement that strategy — and that it was only after his resignation and the overwhelming victory of the Democrats in the 1974 elections that Congress felt that it could indulge in an alternate strategy of walking away?
*John “Akatsukami” Braue*
The answer to your question about Nixon’s policy is yes. It was called Vietnamization. I’ve provided some links for those that want to go digging around for further research. The “Wikipedia”:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page link gives a fairly good background of the Vietnam War / Conflict. The other links provide food for thought concerning some of the political and public perceptions about the anti-Vietnam War / Conflict and talking points from those for the Vietnam War / Conflict. I would keep in mind that the Vietnam War / Conflict has been documented and opined on from many levels and many sources. In the future I’m sure there will be many more to come. It is not hard to imagine that there are yet many more historical documents to be uncovered within the US and from other nations that participated or maintained interest in Vietnam.
“Vietnamization”:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamization
The photos that spurred a national movement against the Vietnam War / Conflict.
“Trang Bang jpg”:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TrangBang.jpg
“Trang Bang Myth”:http://www.vwam.com/vets/myth.html
“Nguyen jpg”:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nguyen.jpg
“Nguyen Ngoc Loan”:http://www.treefort.org/~cbdoten/rvntanks/080-4450.htm
Below are links to a series of articles written by B. G. BurKett and Glenna Whitley and their book “Stolen Valor”:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/096670360X/002-9905668-8064851?v=glance provided by NewsMax
“Part I – Rambo and the Bogus War Heroes”:http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1999/6/20/191111
“Part II – Welcome Home, Babykiller”:http://38.201.154.108/articles/?a=1999/6/13/205648
“Part III – Will the real Vietnam Vet Stand Up?”:http://38.201.154.108/articles/?a=1999/6/14/115533
“Part IV – The Ragtag Brigade”:http://38.201.154.108/articles/?a=1999/6/14/120115
“Part V – Would I Lie To You?”:http://38.201.154.108/articles/?a=1999/6/14/120818
A “Synopsis”:http://www.landscaper.net/timelin.htm of Vietnam provided by the 15th Field Artillery Regiment.
A.L. is a few years older than I am, few enough that I can identify with his position although I was too young to have been making any speeches.
I don’t think you need to understand the various military failures of the war (M. Simon doesn’t, but talking to someone who thinks Bush will win 400 electoral votes is getting too tedious to bother with), but you can’t understand modern American politics without seeing what Vietnam did inside the United States.
1. Vietnam created at least one generation of cynics bred to disbelieve their government on a march to war. (The Guld of Tonkin incident as presented to Congress was as phony anything Bush has said about WMD, 9/11, and Iraq.)
2. Vietnam created at least one generation justifiably worried about incompetence in our military leadership and outright criminality in its conduct of the war.
3. Vietnam gave us a conscription system so corrupt that we were left with middle and upper class youth like Bush, Cheney, and Quayle who thought the war was so important they weren’t qualified to fight it.
4. Vietnam gave the American right wing (cue M. Simon) our very own stab in the back legend.
5. We were never able to arrive at a consensus explanation of what we did wrong (see item 4 above). (Personally, I agree that we didn’t give it our best effort, but not in the same way as the right wing: can you imagine what Rush Limbaugh would have done to the Viet Cong if we hadn’t forced him to sit the war out because of the boil on his butt? Or would that have contravened the Convention against poison gas in warfare?)
For myself, the first time I had any second thoughts whatsoever about my opposition to the war—to date myself, I missed the last draft by less than a year, although I’m a likely 4-F for eyesight—was when I was a graduate assistant and one of my Vietnamese-immigrant students was helping me pronounce her name correctly. I asked where she was from (meaning, in California), and she said Vietnam, and I said, “No, where do your parents live”, and she said, “Oh, they are still in Vietnam.” But before reading M. Simon’s interpretation of this anecdote, you should consider the probability that had the war dragged on until this young woman came of age, she, like many Vietnamese who may have regretted it later, would have favored the other side.
_Andrew_
Points well taken as they are the fall out caused from the Vietnam War. I would add a 6th point to your list. Which I think is most critical. For all your afore mentioned points the populace has now come to the conclusion no matter what is said or what proof is presented no one believes the government period. (Trust no one over thirty)
This is at all levels from the Oval Office on down. Should the person in the Oval office trust their departments and sources or should the person in the Oval office do the research them self? Should the congress and senate trust our departments and resources or should the congress and senate do the research themselves? Should we trust anyone in government to do the right thing and provide the right answers without bias? Yes these are the things that the Vietnam War brought about.
On a final note I would also add that the Vietnam War for all its’ faults caused the art of political debate and reason to rescind to acts of violence.
As a corollary to 2, I would add that Vietnam:
6. Created a generation of 60s radicals (now aging badly) whose cynicism and contempt for liberal democracy and uncritical acceptance of leftist theory led them to agitate in support of a genocidal fascist.
It’s way past time to wheel Chomsky, Kissinger and most of the senile 60s generation into the retirement home. Let the kids play in the sandbox.
Re comments of Andrew J. Lazarus:
Well-crafted, and containing elements of truth, but the conclusions are nontheless in error. And I detect some surprising antecedents for the argument.
“1.Vietnam created at least one generation of cynics bred to disbelieve their government on a march to war. (The Guld of Tonkin incident as presented to Congress was as phony anything Bush has said about WMD, 9/11, and Iraq.)”
Agreed as to the non-parentheticals, and if you stop at “government”. But more accurately, “The Vietnam ‘ethos’ created, etc.” It was not “Vietnam” proper, it was that attitude spawned and nurtured by the politcally- and ideologically-driven organized opposition to the war. For recognition sake, I refer you to today’s very-near copies of Vietnam protesters, “ANSWER”, et al. The same sort of Europhilic, internationalist academic crowd, fueled mightily by its sense of moral superiority and contempt for poor, oafish, mundane, unsophisticated, style-less middle America. “Yuck. Just not like the French at all.” They were the tireless, crusading True Believers, and the rest of an exhausted America eventually shut down, withdrew inward, or even entertained doubts introduced by the new crusaders. And all too often perfectly decent Americans succumbed to this torrent of abuse and abnegation by surrendering to a national self-contempt which for years sickened this country. Thus the “Vietnam ethos”.
As to the parentheticals, please. I think we see where this is going.
“2. Vietnam created at least one generation justifiably worried about incompetence in our military leadership and outright criminality in its conduct of the war.”
Agreed, with the addition of “civilian (leadership)”, The mood of the country,at least until 1980, was, “Who the hell is running this show, and why can’t we do anything anymore?”
As for a genration “justifiably concerned” about “outright criminality” in the conduct of the war;
it is acceptable absent “justifiably” the insertion of “alleged” before “outright criminality”, and with the addition of “as charged by John Kerry in several years of political activism during and immediately after the war.” Let’s dispense with the histronics of “outright criminality”.
You have no concept of how John Kerry stunned and demoralized an entire nation with his apparent admissions that he and his band of brothers had routinely committed war crimes and atrocities, that he “personally knew” of numerous instances of “ears cut off, women raped”. He even said that the entire US military chain of command, as a matter of policy, permitted, even encouraged, those atrocities and war crimes.
Jane Fonda outraged us, but Kerry just absolutely broke our spirit. We had a decorated Viet vet saying these things! My God, are they true? Well, it may have taken us 35 years to find out, but the answer is “No”. I hardly care about the sad prospect of a man so bereft of character as to garishly embellish his personal exploits to the point of fantasy, but the truly harmful lies of John Kerry, the ones which staggered this country, were about his and others’ war crimes. So let’s not continue the “criminal conduct”, shall we?
“3. Vietnam gave us a conscription system so corrupt that we were left with middle and upper class youth like Bush, Cheney, and Quayle who thought the war was so important they weren’t qualified to fight it.”
Misleading on several levels. Student deferments were in our draft system long before Vietnam existed. It was limited, notice, to “deferment”; you still owed the time. But this “middle and upper class” thing is an Oliver Stone-style fantasy. Do you have the least idea of the percentage of volunteers in general, college-student or -grads in particular, as a proportion of servicemen in Vietnam? Do you have the least inkling of how much BELOW the percentage of blacks in US population was the percentage of blacks killed to that of total causlties? (Hint: yes, it is lower). Do you know that Vietnam was not fought by or paid for with the deaths of 18-year-old high-school dropouts (a dearly, DEARLY held myth)? I’ll make it easy: start with “Akatsukami’s” limls.
“4. Vietnam gave the American right wing (cue M. Simon) our very own stab in the back legend.”
This is my favorite, as being an elegant multi-warhead. The “Dolchstosslegende” was the story promulagted by the Hitler and the Brownshirts, who said that Jews and greedy industrialists had “BETRAYED” (close your eyes, and you can hear AL Gore) the Kaiser’s soldiers in WW1. So, anyone today who argues John Kerry dishonorably concocted stroeis of atrocities for his own recognitoon and politcal gain, why they’re crypto-Nazis, get it? And they probably hate Jews too, ya’ know.
Despicable. And might I say, Andrew, lifted entirely from Matthew Yglesias May 17, 2004 column in American Progress. http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=83795
There’s a real worthy source to take your points from.
“5. We were never able to arrive at a consensus explanation of what we did wrong (see item 4 above). (Personally, I agree that we didn’t give it our best effort, but not in the same way as the right wing: can you imagine what Rush Limbaugh would have done to the Viet Cong if we hadn’t forced him to sit the war out because of the boil on his butt? Or would that have contravened the Convention against poison gas in warfare?)”
Arrive at a consensus? Okay, what am I missing? I think Andrew is saying that’s a bad, or even unusual or unexpected, thing. Hell, we don’t have “consensus” on the American Revolution, for God’s sake. I’m sorry, we don’t operate like the Commissariat of Public Opinion and issue decrees of attitudinal correctness (at least not yet). The rest is unworthy of comment.
Now, as to the antecedents of your positions. Andrew, my boy (and I am as certian as I am sitting here that you have the purity, the righteousness, the certainty of youth still rushing from your heart), you would have been right at home with the SDS. They were Marxixt-Leninists (okay, some Trotskyites there, too), and were one of the driving forces behind “peace” marches from 1967 forward. Credit 1968 Chicago riots to them as well. Now, tell me: when’s your next ANSWER march?
Andrew,
The best evidence we have of the effectiveness of the US Military in Vietnam is the testimony of our enemies.
Specifically General Giap. He thought Tet had cost him the war until he read the news reports. They gave the North hope. They hung on (without much VC help post Tet) for six more years to win.
Even that win was not inevitable had we supported the South with arms. The Democratic Congress of the time cut off all military funds. Effectively handing the people of Vietnam to the communists.
Then the slaughters began.
Joe,
Col. Summers is one of my faves. My copy of “On Strategy” is well worn.
=================================
What do Walter Mitty and John Kerry have in common? Great war time exploits.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
BTW It matters not who gave the orders. In the American military since at minimum post 1946 it is the man who pulled the trigger who is guilty of a war crime.
No one “made” Kerry commit those crimes. In fact as an Officer all he had to do to avoid carrying out those orders was to resign.
Kerry pulled the trigger. Kerry is a criminal. Period. BTW there is no statute of limitations on war crimes. If John “War Criminal” Kerry gets elected expect some one to try to prosecute him for war crimes.
There will be testimony. Evidence. Witnesses etc.
Tired of Vietnam? Elect Bush. This is not going to go away. Kerry is going to be proved a war criminal or a liar. Take yer pick.
========================
I’m going with Kerry is not a liar. I believe he comitted war crimes as he testified before the US Senate in ’71.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
I’m too young to appreciate the impact that VietNam had on our homeland. So young at that time that my morality was very black and white. I believed first, it was wrong to send men to fight without their consent and 2nd, it was wrong to spit on them when they returned.
It wasn’t until I was older that I realized the second wrong was due in large part to naive and misguided individuals who also saw things in black and white too, but their version of black and white seemed far different from mine.
And frankly, I still have trouble understanding how one can reconcile some behaviors.
My husband is 15 years my senior. He was called up for duty but deferred because he lacks vision in one eye. Our pal, one of my husband’s high school buddies, joined the National Guard a la Bush. Between the two of them they have to use both hands and feet to count the number of their pals who volunteered, mostly to the Marines. A handful never made it back. One they just found last year through DNA and was returned to our hometown, buried next to his parents.
So the three of us watched the DNC Convention together, wondering how Kerry, who made such a name for himself defiling his “band of brothers”, was certainly responsible for at least some of that baby killing, spitting on soldiers, disgusting and demoralizing activity, could stand up there and regale in his service. More astounding was how the crowd seemed so please by his display. Aren’t his base opposed to Viet Nam? Weren’t they opposed to the baby killers 35 years ago? Now their “hero” can snap a lame ass salute and the red white and blue gets wagged like a puppies tails.
Someone above asked why there has been little defining discussion of VietNam? Don’t you think in part it may be that the media, such as it is, would have to admit their complicity in the unfolding of events?
Rob, above, mentioned that he’s sick of hearing about Viet Nam. It wasn’t his war. That’s true. To me however, I think it’s about damned time we aired out this nasty hamper and hung ALL that shit out in the clean sunshine. The mainstream media won’t do it of it’s own accord but we don’t have to rely soley on them. Those veterans, my husband’s buddies, the others on that black collective tombstone in Washington deserve a better legacy than what has been put on them.
Kerry should have to explain himself, for both then and now. How do you call your band of brothers baby killers and then circle them around you 35 years later like a political human shield?
And this SBVfT group…well, I wasn’t there. I don’t know the truth. But, true or not, this conversation has been a long time in coming. Our nation, in my view, was wrongly demoralized by the anti-War movement of yesterday. Our veterans were horribly and wrongly treated. To see how is adversely affected our psyche one need only remember Carter. Let’s have this discussion, both specific (Kerry should release the records) and broadly (did we lose a winnable war? why? how? did we unfairly shame our soldiers? who’s to blame? how can we avoid this in the future?)
In my view, were it not for the open media we enjoy today, the same could be happening to our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. And that it isn’t happening can’t be credited to the left’s want for trying.
lunacy
I’ve change my mind (Kerry taught me how) since my last post.
It appears that the Rev. Alston was NEVER under the Kerry command. The evidence is not definite but will require the release of Kerry’s and his crew’s service records. Some of which were posted on the Kerry site and then removed. (Kerry been channeling Nixon?)
Now is the time for the Kerry campaign to make up their minds – would they prefer a war criminal or a liar as a candidate? The choice is easy. It is the same man.
The Kerry campaign will be kept busy for the next few months answewring Vietnam charges. How will they have time to deal with Bush when he starts getting heavy?
BTW the Kerry “24 hour response” War Room took 5 days to get their new Cambodia story concocted. Unfortunately it FTLT. Fails The Laugh Test. i.e the Mekong Delta is farther from Cambodia than Sa Dec.
Andrew et. al. the wheels are coming off. Canyou handle another 80 days of this without serious damage to your candidate? Polls are showing that of independents who are strong for or lean towards Kerry 50% or more change their mind after seeing the swiftie’s ad.
My estimate is that this is the end of Kerry in politics. He will be at minimum unelectable, he may resign, and possibly if he really wants to help the Ds he may commit suicide.
======================================
I’m going with Kerry is a liar. I believe he lied when he said he comitted war crimes as he testified before the US Senate in ’71. ‘Course that makes him a criminal as well.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
ROFLMAO!!!
I did. And I did. It realy was kind of spooky…
lunacy,
You rock, sister!
===========
Why was Kerry lying before Congress about his Cambodia Christmas adventure?
Because old habits die hard?
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
John Earnest,
I was there. You got it right. Some day Andrew will grow up (if he has sufficient intellectual honesty).
=====================
Do you know where John Kerry spent the Christamas of 1968?
You don’t?
That is all right. Neither does John.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
USMC,
Semper Fi! from the USN.
Young kids are rarely interested in history until they have seen some. True for me until about 1980 (when I was ~35). I was so sick of war I decided I had to study it to put an end to it.
The more I learned the more supportive I became of the US and its military.
=======================================
250 decorated veterans all liars? Kerry still sliming vets? Reversion to form . I’d say.
Now what are the odds that the 2% who support Kerry and are paid by him are telling the truth and the 98% who don’t get a dime are liars? Kinda stretches the old credulity don’t it. Unless Kerry is accusing the officer corps of the US Navy to be made up of untrustworthy liars.
Good old John.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
_M. Simon_
I got to hand it to you. I gave up on Andrew a long time ago as I gave up on others who refuse to research or even talk to those who served. I’m tired and I’m sick of it. In one respect you are right because I see it as a waste of time anymore. As they say you can take a horse to water but you can’t force the horse to drink.
_Lunacy_
_”Those veterans, my husband’s buddies, the others on that black collective tombstone in Washington deserve a better legacy than what has been put on them.”_
That black collective tombstone is my rock of peace. When the Vietnam Memorial was first discussed and the request for design was sent out I was absolutely against it. I didn’t want a memorial and I wanted to be left alone. After it was built I had to see it for myself and my expectations were not very high concerning what I might find. As you walk up to the memorial from afar it looks as if there is very little worth. It wasn’t until I reached the wall that the awe struck me in that it seems to appear out of nowhere and what seemed to be miniscule became a massive monument to those that gave their lives. Each stone meticulously placed, each name meticulously engraved, for once I truly felt at home and at peace with myself.
obelus wrote:
*I have my own doubts regarding the veracity of his record, but I am sure he ranks beyond who we currently have serving as Commander In Chief and I intend to support his candidacy. I am grateful that, if truth shall prevail, it is likely bloggers like SBD that will supply it.*
Obleus, thank you for your kind words, but I can assure you that I did not post the documents for Kerry’s benefit. My hope is that as the truth comes out *and it will come out* that voters such as yourself will realize that there is no better person than George W. Bush to lead this country through these uncertain times. Since when does a President have to have served in a war to effective Commander in Chief? If I’m not mistaken, President Roosevelt wasn’t a veteran and he led this country during World War II just fine.
I have read through a good portion of these documents and even though important pieces have yet to be released, I don’t really need them to form an opinion. Liberals that do not want to face the truth and are willing to put the entire country into the hands of a systematic liar and criminal, will need to have all the evidence read to them, probably by Jimmy Carter, in order to believe that their nominee is *still not good enough to be the anybody but Bush candidate and win*.
One example I can point out is that John Kerry’s first Purple Heart that was for a wound received on December 2, 1968 for which no After Action Reports have been released, Was issued to him on February 28, 1969. His second Purple Heart for “so called” injuries received on February 20, 1969 was issued on March 6, 1969. The third Purple Heart was for “so called” injuries received on March 13, 1969 and was issued on April 17, 1969. All of these were authorized by the same person, a Donald A Still from the Chief Staff Office who stamped his name on them with no signature required, I guess because there is none.
“John Kerry Military Service Awards”:http://sandiego.reelectbushin2004.com/docfile/JohnKerryMilitaryServiceAwards.pdf
You may also be interested to know that the FBI files on the VVAW tell a good tale of the Kansas City meeting of National Leaders, including Kerry. You remember, the one Kerry says he never attended that discussed such radical thoughts as kidnapping a Senator and worse.
“VVAW FBI Files”:http://sandiego.reelectbushin2004.com/docfile/KerryVVAWFBI.pdf
“You can go to this page”:http://www.reelectbushin2004.com/Default.aspx?tabid=312 to download more information including KerryCIA, After Action Reports for February and March 1969, John Kerry Military Records, Coastal Division 11 Command History, and much more.
Happy Reading,
SBD
BTW Kerry supporters.
Once you get done shoring up the last hole in Kerry’s boat you are going to have a new one to work on.
It appears (preliminary) that Rev. David Alston never served under Kerry. Important records that would provide proof (a report of something his mother said about when he came home) have been removed from the net. People have recollections but no proof. Interesting.
You can go here (several threads from 13/14 Aug.) to get what the opposition has so far.
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/
If this holds up the “band of brothers” may turn out to be a band of liars. So sad. Kerry had a real promising political career ahead of him.
Of course if Alston and Kerry released their records all this could be cleared up.
Before you even get the last fire put out a new one springs up. This is not the end.
Wait till the second front (Bush) opens up with more than harassing fire.
======================================
Why wasn’t Kerry reprimanded for throwing chickens against the wall?
Because he didn’t throw the chickens. He used a machine gun.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
USMC,
I have no hope of swaying Andrew. I do what I do because of the many lurkers. I do not want any charges that I am familiar with to go unanswered.
Think of it as counter battery fire.
Like any war, the battle consists of 10,000 skirmishes.
Now as I see it the part we Vets play is to keep Kerry engaged and get him to focus on Vietnam. When Bush stops doing just harassingfire and opens with the big guns the hope is Kerry will be over stretched ans collapse.
As many of the swifties have said: This fight is not specifically about the election. The election merely provides the field of battle. It is a grudge match to the death. And we hold the high ground.
Given all that here is another shot. And for you Kerry supporters don’t say you weren’t warned.
INCOMING!
==================
John Kerry is emblimatic of America. A country where any decorated war criminal can run for President.
What are the War Heros Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
First Hand Account from Kerry’s Swift Boat gunner. If Steve Gardner is Kerry’s *gunner*, why does John Kerry call Rev. David Alston *gunner*?
“David Alston at the Democratic National Convention”:http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/07-27-2004/0002218466&EDATE=
“And when the shooting stopped, he was always there too, with a caring hand on my shoulder asking, “Gunner, are you OK?”
Rev Alston’s speech plays just like a Michael Moore movie. From what I am seeing and hearing, it would seem that Moore could learn a few things from Kerry.
*On Wednesday August 4th, 2004 Roger Hedgecock interviewed Steve Gardner who served with John Kerry for two months during Kerry’s four and a half months in Vietnam. Gardner was the gunner on the swift boat commanded by Lt. John Kerry*.
Gardner maintains Kerry was a lousy skipper, a liar and that his rescue of a fellow crewman (much heralded by Kerry) was in fact the culmination of an act of cowardice. Gardner maintains that Kerry falsified a situation report involving the deaths of vietnamese. *Gardner says that he has just gotten a copy of that sitrep which differs dramatically from his own(Gardner’s) first person account.* Gardner admits killing the vietnamese and thus says he has vivid recollection of the incident that John Kerry lied about in the sitrep.
You may hear the entire interview that Roger Hedgecock conducted with Steve Gardner by clicking below.
This material is available to anyone who wants to use it. We ask only that you credit The Roger Hedgecock Show on KOGO AM 600 in San Diego, California.
“Listen to MP3 of this Interview Here”:http://www.rogerhedgecock.com/timages/page/media/SWIFT%20BOAT.mp3
USMC,
What I am noticing is a declining volume of fire.
I have been posting my “jokes” all over the net and yet no one on Kerry’s side has challenged me on any one of them. Not one.
This I think is evidence of declining morale. Which is the first phase of a rout.
I expect a rout because we have 80 more days to go and haven’t yet aplied maximum force.
Add in that Bush hasn’t even started in on his Senate record and I think the percentages will be close to historic. No way this is an even race. It is my opinion that Kerry is way behind. Already.
M. Simon, it’s because your “jokes” are neither funny nor incisive. Rather than waste time with them, I’m enjoying one poll after another showing President Smirking Chimp falling behind. No, it’s not an even race.
Anmdrew,
As I said no defence. And of course to you they aren’t funny. You are not supposed to like them.
Proof I’d say of their effectiveness.
So OK. You don’t want to argue the merits of my points. None of your brothers or sisters do either. I find this quie unusual. Never happened to me before. Usually I am barraged with “proof” that I have my facts wrong. So here is your chance to improve your candidate’s position:
For instance is your candidate a war criminal as he claimed in ’71 before a Senate comittee or a liar? Was he truthful or was he making shit up? Your choice.
Here is another one that needs clearing: Did Rev. Alston serve under Kerry’s command as has been claimed or just in his unit? If he didn’t serve under Kerry how do you explain the silence of those swifties that served under him? If he served in Kerry’s unit doesn’t that improve the credibility of the other swifties who served in his unit?
========================================
John Kerry, a man who faced shot and shell in Vietnam, is afraid of paper in America.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
A tasty little bit for Andrew:
…last night I was talking to a friend who is a hardcore liberal Democrat and is, in fact, a first cousin of a very well-known Democratic Senator. He was very upset about the Kerry-Swift Vet-Cambodia controversy. He blamed Kerry for the whole thing, saying he had set himself up for this problem by making Vietnam the centerpiece of his campaign. Two things struck me about this. First, this is a guy who gets all of his news from the biggies – the NYT, NPR, and CNN – and yet he knew all about the story. That means the Big Media filter isn’t preventing the story from reaching people. Second, he had concluded that Kerry deserves the criticism and is lacking in credibility.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3752
Well sure. Anonymous sources etc.
There are still about 80 days to go and we haven’t even hit hard at the Winter Soldier propaganda machine. Or his meetings with the enemy in Paris while a Naval Officer. Or Kerry’s Senate record. Or his plan for Iraq. The only Kerry blow so far that hit and is somewhat sustainable is the stem cell research. (BTW I agree with Kerry’s position even if it ignores Bush’s nuances)
=================================
Do you know where John Kerry spent the Christamas of 1968?
You don’t?
That’s all right. Neither does John.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
Even the folks at The New Republic are beginning to notice that Kerry won’t talk to reporters. Kerry’s been in the cocoon ever since his Christmas-Eve-in-Cambodia story collapsed, and the press pool doesn’t like it…..
http://www.hughhewitt.com/#postid777
What do you think about that Andrew? I’m sure there is a good explanation for that. AS soon as you think of it I’m sure you will let us know.
=========================
“I say again — go with the guys who were On The Boat”
Three of them say Kerry was never in Cambodia.
Who ya gonna believe the swifties? Or the guys who were On The Boat?
I’m going with the boat guys on this one.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
“Despite the score being Vets: 1, Kerry: 0, the Swift Boaters still get about as much press coverage as Joe Wilson only after he was discovered a fraud. When Wilson was calling Bush a liar, he had access to every microphone for weeks as his (false) version of events was quickly scripted into college texts everywhere. The Swift Boat Veterans have been acknowledged as telling the truth on at least one Kerry flap, while nothing they have said has been effectively disputed. Telling the truth even one time deserves at least as much coverage as someone who as never told the truth at all. “
http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/h/hawkins-dustin/2004/hawkins-dustin081504.htm
Did you know that John Kerry was a secret agent?
He performed a mission in Cambodia so secret that only he has ever talked about it. It is so secret three of his crew and all of his superior officers claimed it never happened.
What is the War Hero Afraid of?
Form 180. Release the records.
USMC, I’ve been to the rock. I can’t fully empathize with your feelings on it, for obvious reasons. And I too, hated the design at first. It IS like a large tombstone. A large black tombstone. I felt it was meant to make us all be remorseful. And in a manner of speaking it does. HOWEVER, after seeing the great care and detail, the visitors, their leavings, the names, names, names, as far as the eye can see, the shear enormity of it, but especially the visitors and their leavings, it IS moving to me as well. And it obviously brings peace to many many more besides you. For that I’m grateful to it. For that reason alone it is a thing of great worth and beauty. I’m glad it’s there. We need it.
But it’s not enough. We need a meaningful and honest narrative to go along with that rock. The memory of the men who bore those cleanly chiseled names deserves it.
lunacy
Too “post” haste previously…
addendum:
AND the men still here, whose names have yet to be etched on any stone, deserve it. You and your children deserve it. We, as a nation, owe it to you and them.
lunacy
*Some interesting developments…*
Concerning Kerry/Alston – Now Hear This
“From the SwiftVets.com forum”:http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2603&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
Until furthur notice, any furthur exploration or development of this line of inquiry or the reproduction of any material associated with this line of inquiry is prohibited within this forum.
*One post was allowed to post this message.*
Because of a temporary restriction on discussion of the Alston story here’s a link to where the story is being worked. Lot of new evidence. Not conclusive but gathering…..
“http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/”:http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/
Permission to post this was received from the administrator.
And from there, read the entire story:
“Evidence Shows The Rev. David Alston Could Not Have Served Under Sen. Kerry”:http://idexer.com/articles/alston_kerry.htm
SBD
The KEY lesson of Vietnam-
Don’t let the French determine your foreign policy.
If the US had not given into DeGualle’s blackmail and transported French troops back to Vietnam (to sieze the colony for French “honor”) the war would not have happened.
The rest of our arguments are just fluff around that bald historical fact.