None of us know what happened inside the mosque in Fallouja. The reality of war – of sending fragments of metal through men’s bodies to injure or kill them is horrible for any sane person.
It is not the least horrible thing, though.Atrios wants to end the war by bringing it home:
Of course, Kerry was telling the truth about the atrocities in Viet Nam. Every war has atrocities. Now, there’s a new one in Iraq. But it’s too icky to show on tv. Too bad. This war will end when Americans get to see every night at dinner what their sons and daughters are becoming. What the true cost is of those SUVs. If it’s too icky to show, maybe it’s too icky for us to be doing it?
I don’t want to end the war, but I don’t shy away from the icky parts, either. Any human endeavor involves some level of failure, whether it is heart surgery, rocket science, or war.
And anyone who has butchered an animal and eaten its meat knows that you can’t have life without the icky parts.
I won’t engage in ritual condemnation; I don’t know nearly enough about what happened to condemn – and neither do you, nor does anyone commenting on the subject right now.
There will be an investigation, and it is quite possible, a conviction.
That’s what makes us different from them. We put our murderers on trial. They put theirs on wall murals.
I do believe that our military – whose job it is to kill their opponents – does the best job humanely possible to avoid killing those it should not kill. I also know for a fact that there will be errors, tragedy, and wrongdoing.
We learn from the errors, weep at the tragedy, and bring justice to those who do wrong.
It doesn’t seem very complex to me.
That’s what makes us different from them. We put our murderers on trial. They put theirs on wall murals.
Except for that $20 bill thingy, of course.
This sucks.
BTW, the cameraman has a blog.
I don’t know nearly enough about what happened to condemn – and neither do you, nor does anyone commenting on the subject right now.
One can take an educated guess at what the problem is, and the solution follows quickly: We need to learn from the Israelis and start treating PTSD proactively, instead of waiting until shit like this happens in Iraq or at home.
I’d rather the marine in question go home to see his family than worry about some guy firing on the marines from a mosque. Better safe than sorry. The terrorists have feinted surrender, played dead and booby trapped bodies. Dead terrorists equals safe marines/soldiers. Get over it. If you think you can do better, carry your lazy a## down to the local recruiters station and sign up to be a marine or an 11 Bravo.
I think you’re right. And when it comes right down to it, I didn’t see anything going on in that Mosque that wouldn’t be considered normal at your run-of-the-mill fraternity hazing. You’ve got to break a few cows to make a hamburger, and you’ve got to kill the occasional unarmed, wounded, helpless captive in order to do whatever that is we’re trying to do in Iraq. Seems simple enough to me.
I don’t know any more about what happened than any on else. I do know that when an investigation is undertaken and it looks like someone is going to be accused of murder we generally do not make statements like:
That’s what makes us different from them. We put our murderers on trial. They put theirs on wall murals.
I am sure no malice was meant by the wording of this sentence but shouldn’t it have said Alleged murderer. It MIGHT have been in self defence, like in Police work.
Scott Peterson was referred to as alleged until the verdict was read. Robert Blake is still called Alleged. I hope people will give the same courtesy to this Marine. At least until we know more.
When all is known we will do the right thing because that is who we are.
As for Kevin Site, he is your typical Bleeding Heart Lib Journo type. I visted his site and tried to debate him when the debate was going on about the media only reporting the bad going on in Iraq. He could not or would not understand that the American people needed and wanted to hear and see the good as well as the bad. He said people like me just wanted to ignore or shut out the bad and report only the good. When I challenged him and made logical points he refused to answer my posts.
Fox showed the video, all but the bullet impact.
The enemy WIA jerked or spasmed. Anyone who has been a snuffy in a rifle platoon knows what happens when someone or something that is supposed to be still moves.
It’s easy to be horrified in the comfort of a chair in front of a computer. As a matter of fact one SHOULD be horrified, war is a horrible thing.
One of the horrible things about war is that things that a snuffy has to decide in a split second get argued incessantly by people who can take fifteen minutes to decide which wine with the entree.
The number of infantrymen killed by those who were supposedly harmless is uncountable. In the brutal darwinian transition from rookie to veteran one lesson stands out, to hesitate is to die.
A rifleman saw an enemy WIA move, he did what riflemen do.
The Koreans named a line of cars after the guys who would wait to see what the movement meant…KIA.
If this guy was a family friend of a US Senator from Massachusetts, he would be up for a Silver Star.
Another “Oh, the humanity” moment.
They said they wanted to die for their cause. They did. What’s the problem? Nice shot. Next.
I sure hope word of this gets to the Marines protecting Sites’ sorry ass. Let him check out the next twenty or thirty jihadi joes in the same condition. Elevating this beyond the actual circumstance without revisiting that limbless blond haired corpse in the same article is leftist masturbation. Endulge to the extent that makes you happy.
I haven’t watched the clip yet, so I’m putting the cart before the horse, but if the iraqi moved suddenly and our marine popped him… well, too bad, so sad, life is full of pain. Not to make light of this, MOUT combat is like a pop-up arcade game (only with real flying metal and blood). And while we fight with amazing restraint and discretion, the other side has no hesitation to pull every dirty trick in the book. Clearly two wrongs don’t make a right, but the battlefield is a messy place and Monday morning quarterbacking should be reserved for football, not combat.
On the side of the coin you have this report
Mujahidin terrorised Fallujah, residents say
“Text to display”:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1359782,00.html
I agree with countzero. These poor kids are walking into a gauntlet of well-equipped and highly delusional enemy. The enemy has been brain-washed into to trying anything to get an opportunity to kill an American Soldier. If any of us were shot in the face yesterday, I think it would be understandable if our trigger fingers spasmed as much as the insurgent who was allegedly lying there dead. This is not a conventional war between two nations. As much as the MSM and Democrats wish to deny the reality, the world is at war with a bunch of miscreant psychopaths who think Geneva Convention only works for them when all their bullets are gone and their knives used in the last beheading lost.
Moral of the story, Mosul you’re next…
Im disgusted. Disgusted that anyone sitting comfortably in their living room (or news room) has the balls to call this an atrocity. Anyone who doesnt realize that such a thing happens in any and every war is a total waste of DNA. That marine did exactly what his training, not to mention survival instincts demanded. A group of marines was just badly cut up by a scumbag playing dead, doubtless every soldier in Fallujah knew that. Most of us would have probably panicked and shot everyone in the freakin room.
This brave marine had already been _shot in the face_ but he was back doing his duty. I dont often get angry, but anyone trying to make anything of this makes me furious enough to want to wring their pencil neck. I dont want to see the kid who want back into Fallujah with a bullet scar on his face in pictures next to Lyndie England.
Chest-beating aside, from the limited viewing of the video seen this action was not immediate, but came after the soldier stopped and realized and communicated that the Iraqi was not fully dead.
Most of the posters here seem to have glossed over A.L.’s statement that “we are different…” or in other words, civilized. How we react to this incident is a test of the dignity of our people and our nation. So far I have seen no dignity, let alone decency from the people posting here.
If any of us were shot in the face yesterday, I think it would be understandable if our trigger fingers spasmed as much as the insurgent who was allegedly lying there dead.
It’s hard to argue with this statement, which is why I’ll reitterate that it’s important that the US armed forces move to deal with psychotrauma proactively and in the field. The IDF has shown that a more open (and aggresive approach) to treating PTSD increases troop readiness and lowers aggregate casualty turnaround time.
Count, Mark – my gut is on your side. But again, none of us know nearly enough to have an opinion that’s worth the electrons it’s painted with.
So let’s lower the temprature, let the facts come out and argue then.
And understand, as Breaker Morant did, that sometimes justice may not be just.
A.L.
When you have a camera on the battlefield and the ability to blast video to the world in short order, these difficult situations will be judged by millions of armchair idiots.
Willfully shooting to death a wounded enemy is a war crime, but if I was that Marine in that situation, I may have done exactly the same thing.
Tragic.Remember, Kevin Sites also reported that the day before, a Marine was killed searching a booby trapped, wounded ‘insurgent’. War is kill or be killed.Hesitation will get you or your buddies KILLED.
Whatever Site’s political bent,he has some balls getting in the thick of it with the Marines in Fallujah.
I’m pretty much with Atrios on this one. From what I understand, this kid probably did the wrong thing for the right reasons. Be fair to the Marine, but rub the American public’s nose in the murder as a
reminder of the gravity of war.
War is not like butchering an animal or changing a diaper. It’s the rape of the soul. It consumes generations and shits out corpses. Few Americans have had to pay a price for the war in Iraq yet — footage like this can remind them what that price is, and that in all likelihood we’ll all be paying it soon enough.
Here is a comment that explains Defences against any charge of a War Crime. The first comment after the post is where you’ll find the Defences against any charge of a War Crime
“Text to display”:http://www.command-post.org/2_archives/017667.html#17667
Matt McKeon,
Not sure what Country you are located in but I wonder if you have had YOUR SEPT 11th yet? I Pray not.
You are right about one thing: You’ll all be paying it soon enough. Because the TERRORIST are coming after your kind TOO!! Don’t think so, check out the Dutch and French headlines.
Have you wondered how the people of Fallujah feel about the US Marines clearing their town out? Check this article out, if you dare.
Mujahidin terrorised Fallujah, residents say
“Text to display”:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1359782,00.html
From the article:
“bq.” Another poster in the ruins of the souk bears testament to the strict brand of Sunni Islam imposed by the council, fronted by hardline cleric Abdullah Junabi. The decree warns all women that they must cover up from head to toe outdoors, or face execution by the armed militants who controlled the streets.
“bq.” Two female bodies found yesterday suggest such threats were far from idle. An Arab woman, in a violet nightdress, lay in a post-mortem embrace with a male corpse in the middle of the street. Both bodies had died from bullets to the head.
I sure hope you realize *these women COULD be your Mother, Sister, Grandma, Wife, Daughter!*
More from the article:
“bq.” A man in his sixties, half-naked and his underwear stained with blood from shrapnel wounds from a US munition, cursed the insurgents as he greeted the advancing marines on Saturday night.
“bq.” I wish the Americans had come here the very first day and not waited eight months, he said, trembling. Nearby, a mosque courtyard had been used as a weapons store by the militants.
Another elderly man, who did not want his name used for fear the rebels would one day return and restore their draconian rule, said he was detained by the militants last Tuesday and held for four days before being freed. He described how he had then sought refuge in a friend’s house where they had huddled together clutching Korans in silent prayer for their lives as the massive US bombardment put the insurgents to flight.
“bq.” It was horrible, he told an AFP reporter. We suffered from the bombings. Innocent people died or were wounded by the bombings.
“bq.” But we were happy you did what you did because Fallujah had been suffocated by the Mujahidin. Anyone considered suspicious would be slaughtered. We would see unknown corpses around the city all the time.
“bq.” The same story of arbitrary executions was told by another resident, found by US troops cowering in his home with his brother and his family.
*WAKE UP and stop shitting you YOUR diaper!*
Matt McKeon,
Not sure what Country you are located in but I wonder if you have had YOUR SEPT 11th yet? I Pray not.
You are right about one thing: You’ll all be paying it soon enough. Because the TERRORIST are coming after your kind TOO!! Don’t think so, check out the Dutch and French headlines.
Have you wondered how the people of Fallujah feel about the US Marines clearing their town out? Check this article out, if you dare.
Mujahidin terrorised Fallujah, residents say
“Text to display”:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1359782,00.html
From the article:
“bq.” Another poster in the ruins of the souk bears testament to the strict brand of Sunni Islam imposed by the council, fronted by hardline cleric Abdullah Junabi. The decree warns all women that they must cover up from head to toe outdoors, or face execution by the armed militants who controlled the streets.
“bq.” Two female bodies found yesterday suggest such threats were far from idle. An Arab woman, in a violet nightdress, lay in a post-mortem embrace with a male corpse in the middle of the street. Both bodies had died from bullets to the head.
I sure hope you realize *these women COULD be your Mother, Sister, Grandma, Wife, Daughter!*
More from the article:
“bq.” A man in his sixties, half-naked and his underwear stained with blood from shrapnel wounds from a US munition, cursed the insurgents as he greeted the advancing marines on Saturday night.
“bq.” I wish the Americans had come here the very first day and not waited eight months, he said, trembling. Nearby, a mosque courtyard had been used as a weapons store by the militants.
Another elderly man, who did not want his name used for fear the rebels would one day return and restore their draconian rule, said he was detained by the militants last Tuesday and held for four days before being freed. He described how he had then sought refuge in a friend’s house where they had huddled together clutching Korans in silent prayer for their lives as the massive US bombardment put the insurgents to flight.
“bq.” It was horrible, he told an AFP reporter. We suffered from the bombings. Innocent people died or were wounded by the bombings.
“bq.” But we were happy you did what you did because Fallujah had been suffocated by the Mujahidin. Anyone considered suspicious would be slaughtered. We would see unknown corpses around the city all the time.
“bq.” The same story of arbitrary executions was told by another resident, found by US troops cowering in his home with his brother and his family.
*WAKE UP and stop using YOUR diaper!*
Sorry for the Double Post! If you can remove the 2nd post, please do. Thanks!
#16 jhouse – do you have a reference or a link to Site’s report that you cite? Neither snark nor pun intended.
If the marine in question was aware of booby trapped wounded, then the incident makes more sense to me.
I saw the clip on CNN – more to the point, I _heard_ the clip. What was evident was that the Marine clearly believed the wounded enemy was faking death, and took great exception to this behavior. What I heard in his voice was a great deal of agitation and urgency – the same agitation and urgency heard in any number of clips of actual combat, or segments of ‘COPS’ for that matter.
Now it could be that the wounded man was playing dead, waiting for the marines to leave. Or it could be that he actually concealed a weapon. Or it could be that he was unconscious, unable to respond, and harmelss.
Assuming the enemy wounded had previously played possum and harmed the Marines, then the exception that this particular Marine took to this perceived behavior by the wounded enemy is entirely understandable. Given previous reports of the enemy advancing armed on the Marines under a white flag, this particular scenario seems quite plausible to me.
What I don’t know is how the rules of engagement cover this kind of situation. It may have been a violation, or perhaps not – it seems city police have been exonerated after killing people who posed less of a risk (not that those are great examples). But however horrible this killing was (and it was hard to watch), just judging from the voice of the Marine, it didn’t seem gratuitous. Whether the threat perceived was real, reasonable, or justified remains to be seen. It could be he did the right thing, or it could be that his judgement is badly skewed, and needs a rest or a career change or some kind of help.
It also could be that the rules of engagement on the books are inadequate to keep our soldiers safe and react with sufficient force to reasonable threats. In which case, throwing said book at this Marine is not something I’d support. I’m not encouraged by the reference to Breaker Morant, A.L. Back when I identified myself as more of a liberal my recollection is that we had a word for “justice which is not just”. We called it “bulls**t” – didn’t we?
OK, from this report we have:
This actually may be more common in Iraq than we imagine, it’s just this time someone filmed it.
My guessing would be that this marine while maybe a bit hair trigger happy probably acted upon previous experiences or intelligence of insurgent tactics at the point of surrender. I don’t believe we are going to have very many terrorist POWs come out of Fallujah. And I believe that the GIs have become wary of deadenders suiciding while being taken into custody with ieds strapped to themselves and/or feigning death only to attack the GI who has to make sure he is dead (or the GI giving aid to the injured for that matter) without becoming the victim of a booby trap.
I just cannot call this a crime as it is being somewhat protrayed in the press just yet; at least until I know the mindset of that marine. I do know that when it is all said and done he and his buddies including the reporter are alive while the terrorist is dead, and somehow I’m okay with that.
There has also been the much gnashing of teeth on how this video could set off the Arab street in Abu Ghraib fashion. Puhleese…these savages saw people’s heads off, video tape the murder, and then sell the videos like hotcakes to Arab ‘moderates’ as entertainment. Why people would worry about how Islamofascists would feel and/or do about the video is beyond me. There is no moral or cultural equivalency at all in the behavior of US forces and the terrorists. It’s not even close so politically correct handwringers need to get a grip. To try to fight the war observing political correctness is to lose the war because the jihadis don’t care about rules or political correctness, and to them the Geneva Convention is for suckers. Just ask Nick Berg.
My father was a combat Marine in the South Pacific during WW2. “Dead Japs” often killed Americans with their chickenshit tactics. If Marines survived combat, they learned to verify the demise of “dead Japs” with a bullet or satchel charge. Standing over the bodies of your dead squad mates and mumbling “I thought he was dead (or wounded or surrendered)” doesn’t cut it.
If the enemy wants to be safe they should either stay at home or abide by the rules of war.
As for arm-chair analysts….if ya ain’t been there and done that…you’re incapable of understanding. Avert your gaze. But, more importantly, shutup.
I found this relevant quote via Donald Sensing’s site:
(Emphasis mine – and Sensing’s.)
—
I know this looks bad. But can someone explain the difference between this and the “coup de grace” that earned John Kerry his Silver Star?
I find it odd that the military is investigating the matter itself, as it should, and a lot of folks here have already made up their minds and are outraged at the outrage. That’s disturbing.
Your humanitarist nuance is of dubious morality. This is war, and the death of an unrepentant killer is good news. Period.
Put the brutality of war on TV?
Why just our rare errors or even crimes?
Why are images of planes flying into our buildings veboten?
Why are pictures of people jumping to their deaths from the WTC too awful for people to see?
Are beheadings of Westerners too likely to inspire white hot hatred of our enemies?
Can’t we see those “recruiting” videos we hear about so much that inspire Islamist nutballs to join the jihad? Is “kill all that you can kill” too harsh for our people to see?
What about videos of Wahabbi enforcers keeping girls inside a burning building lest men see their burning ankle flesh? Surely this is just a multi-cultural moment we should celebrate in the name of diversity. Wouldn’t want to judge that.
How about a picture of a filmmaker with a hate letter pinned to his chest with a knife?
Or the Taliban stoning videos where women were slaughtered for…what? Living a tame version of Sex in the City?
How about videos of carbombers doing their sick work?
Of terrorists pretending to surrender to our troops and then attacking?
Or those videos of Saddam’s era showing dogs tearing a man to shreds?
Maybe we can go back in time and see those pictures from Gaza showing happy celebrations over 9-11?
I dare say that if the American people see the awful truth of war from both ends, we would be hardened to any actions our military might take in our defense.
Oh, and when the public sees how we treat somebody who kills contrary to our rules and compares that to how our enemies celebrate such killers, that will be a whole lot of truth, too.
And we can add videos of Atrios claiming our troops are barbarians. Shown over and over after every display of the horrors of war.
Just for the record, the comments you quote aren’t from Atrios — they’re from his gust blogger Hecate.
(“guest,” not “gust.”)
Does anyone have a link to a site that shows the video?
What really worries me is that this is a nationwide discussion without inviting the people most involved into the discussion.
(Oh, how we love the angst here in the US, because many of us have had it too easy for so long. But that’s another topic for another time….)
Go talk to Marines and Iraqis there first…then we can have a discussion….
I obviously haven’t seen the video, but I did hear the audio on NPR on my way to work this morning. From what I could tell, it sounded like the Marine had or sincerely thought he had, good reason to shoot the insurgent. It’s a war. That marine didn’t have time to debate the finer points of international law. But if he did execute the insurgent, then all I can say is. . . Shrug. I hope the bastard enjoys his 72 virgins.
The guy may have been wounded, but everyone is assuming he was un-armed. The Marine may have seen a weapon and acted accordingly. There’s only one way to fight fire.
The journalist Kevin Sites who filmed this deserves credit for his professionalism. He reported exactly what he saw and filmed, the circumstances, and particularly the mental state that these marines were in do to a booby trapped body killing a fellow marine in their unit.
Money quote:
“Sites said: “I have witnessed the Marines behaving as a disciplined and professional force throughout this offensive. In this particular case, it certainly was a confusing situation to say the least.”
The AP didnt see fit to include this quote. Reuters amazingly did.
I hope they get rid of the reporter for turning the tape over to the media before he let the military do an investigation.
Our MSM just fully endorsed a SOB running for president who won a damn medal for shooting a wounded enemy in the back.
What a pathetic bunch of hypocrites.
“I don’t know nearly enough about what happened to condemn – and neither do you, nor does anyone commenting on the subject right now.”
Yes. But I do know the criteria for what would make it an atrocity–which is the Marine in question intentionally shooting the man without a reason. If the Marine believed the subject in question was a threat (and that’s certainly a plausible fear, as booby-trapping “corpses” is common, and seeing one move makes it a decent bet)–then it’s not a war crime and too bad for the victim.
Regardless, Sites turning over the tape is a clear propaganda victory for our enemies. I hope he understood that and decided getting the truth out outweighed the military advantage conferred. (I don’t agree, but could respect the decision.) If he’s just clueless, somebody ought to slap him.
“Our MSM just fully endorsed a SOB running for president who won a damn medal for shooting a wounded enemy in the back.”
Yes, a wounded enemy with a rocket launcher. BTW, the race is over, you won, find something else to rail about.
This young man’s buddy was killed by a “fake” and booby trapped “dead man” the day before. Give him a medal and let him rest a bit, then send him back after the other Atrios types. They all need to be exterminated ASAP.
So he shot the piece of crap in the face, moments earlier the guy was screaming “Allah Ackbar” while peppering our troops with ak-47 or RPG fire. It’s not as if these guys are conscripts, they wanted War with us and that’s what they got.
“Of course in war all madnesses come out in a man, that is the fault of war not of a man or a nation.”
~Frieda Lawrence
I find it hard to get worked up about this one. From what military historians say, the transition from combatant to prisoner is always dangerous on the battlefield for just this reason. The person you’re trying to surrender to tends to be excited and armed, and you’ve got no idea what experience he’s had with some of your comrades down the road. Expecting this kind of thing not to happen during a battle would be like opening a freeway and then complaining about all the crashes.
It is not up to the Marine to determine if the insurgent was wanting to surrender, it was up to the insurgent to make known if that was his intent. The Marine’s overriding duty is to the success of his mission and survival of his unit. He yelled out a few times, the guy continued to play dead (not an uncommon tactic). The insurgent could well have been hiding a grenade. True, he may just as well been scared out of his wits and was hoping he would be ignored- but the Military is not in the business of risking soldiers lives to ascertain the good will (or lack thereof) from a guy who earlier was trying to kill you and your buds. This isn’t a story, rather its a glimpse of one of the tragic circumstances of war.
My father was a Marine in the Pacific during WW11.
He told me that one of the tactics used by the Japanese was to have a naked young woman meet the soldiers on the beach and then, when surrounded by curious GI’s, lift up her arms and detonate the two grenades she had hidden there.
Needless to say, after a few of those incidents, any young woman seen standing on a beach didn’t live long enough to “welcome” American troops.
My father rarely discusses his wartime experiences. War is hell. Let us not be too quick to judge the actions of men trying to survive in hell. May God bless and preserve these brave young men.
The reporter did the right thing, he turned over the tape while explaining it properly. Had he held it up the scandal would be 50 times worse, and the mans credibility ruined. He is out there to see the truth, good and bad and just unfortunate. He doesnt work for the military, he was invited as an imbed, not as a propagandist.
I agree with AL on this ultimately, it is good that this story gives us pause. It should, we should all take it in and come to understand it. Had the story been hushed up it surely would have leaked out and people would have a warped view. At least this way, virtual everyone (outside the MSM and the moonbats) comes to the same conclusion very quickly, the marine did nothing wrong.
IMO, this helps us in the long run. We have to understand, its not the Iraqi will we have to worry about as citizens, its the American will. This story should give us greater appreciation for what our men are doing and what is being done to them by this evil enemy. We wont lose this war unless we lose our nerve, thats why every attack is aimed to make CNN primetime.
This screams at first glance “gotcha” journalism … along the lines of “fake but accurate” Dan Rather or even Jayson Blair.
Unanswered questions: were the “prisoners” from the day before really left in the Mosque, or actually sent back to the rear, the terrorists wounded in the Mosque different sets of fighters? Was the report of Terrorists re-taking the Mosque and firing from it the next day accurate? If so then these guys realistically could not be prisoners but fighters again. Finally, why didn’t the reporter (who’s blogged that he’s “not one of them” i.e the Marines) TELL the Marines he was with that “hey these guys are the prisoners from YESTERDAY!”
This last is the big one … all the Marines from that unit knew were that the Mosque was filled with Terrorists trying to kill them … the reporter seems to have withheld VITAL info from the Marine unit he was with to get a “gotcha” moment …
One more reason why the Democratic Party/Media is disliked in much of America … trying to actively “get” the Marines by withholding info from them isn’t going to make you popular with the American people.
I won’t even mention the hypocrisy of Kerry getting a medal and adulation from the Media/Democrats while the Marine did the same thing and gets painted as a war criminal.
If that Marine thought for an instant that insurgent represented the remotest possibility of a threat then he was perfectly justified in neutralizing it.
If you say otherwise don’t say it within my arm’s reach.
well, today bbc channel 4 woke me up to devote most of their breakfast programme to agonising about the human rights/war crime committed by the us marine. forget the rest of the action in iraq. forget about terrorists using mosques, etc, etc, no, let’s concentrate on exploring this marine’s actions ad nauseam ad bloody nauseam……as a brit i am ashamed. god bless america. getting your hands and face dirty for the rest of the world.
During my training with the New Zealand Army we were taught to put a bullet into any “injured” combatant if we had any doubt. Rules of engagement were clear. The Marine was simply doing his job and protecting his mates in accordance with their Rules of Engagement.
“More detail on my blog”:http://sagenz.typepad.com/sagenz/2004/11/reasonable_unde.html
Someone should tell Atrios that anti-abortion nuts have been plunking that same tune for years: if they could just show an abortion as a TV infomercial Roe v. Wade would be out the window within a month. As for the anti-American slant of the MSM and BBC, let the dogs bark, the caravan marches on.
I haven’t been in the position of this young Marine. My personal hope is that the investigation is thorough and absolves him of blame.
But it isn’t right to show footage of alleged American wrongdoing if we’re not allowed to see the acts of the Islamist terrorists. I suspect many who currently waver in their support for our actions would feel differently if they saw film of Saddam’s atrocities, or the beheadings of innocents trying to help the Iraqi people.
Of course some simply hate America and always will side with its enemies
They booby-trap the bodies??? Well, in that case, of course it’s better safe than sorry.
What disgusting creeps! They’re not insurgents, they’re criminal murderers.
I’m just glad I’m not there, because faced with the kind of enemy that hides behind women, children, schools, and mosques in order to kill both military and civilians, there would be no prisoners, no (merely) wounded, no one to treat for injuries, no one to go home and come back later to kill again.
“He doesnt work for the military, he was invited as an imbed, not as a propagandist.”
It isn’t propaganda to withhold information that is useful to the enemy–in fact, I’m sure it’s part of the embed agreement. There would be no doubt if it were movement of forces, preparation for attack, or something similar. This may be an arguable gray area, but in Rumsfeld’s parlance “it isn’t helpful.”
The “it would have gotten out anyway and been worse” argument is a lot more persuasive. I suspect you’re right on that one, but would still like to slap somebody.
I saw the video, and I think it is an outrage, an atrocity, a war crime! The poor unarmed guy is on his knees, and this guy comes up behind him and actually saws his head off with a knife!
I’m not sure what kind of nut would try to defend such an action. The guy was obviously not a threat, he was a telecom contractor, bound hand and foot.
Oh, wait…Are you guys talking about a Marine in urban combat, a block from a deadly surrender ruse, confronting a fighter-cum surrenderer-cum fighter-cum incapacitated fighter? And he made the wrong call on whether or not the guy was shamming?
I guess that is the cost of being on the side that violates truce flags. I don’t mean that flippantly, I mean that if your side violates truce flags, you don’t get to surrender anymore. That is the only way that laws of war are enforced outside of our military. Every potential jihadi should know this: if the guys on your side start talking about tricking the Americans with false surrenders, it may mean that when you tire of fighting the Yanks, they will not let you surrender, but will kill you because your buddy taught them that accepting surrender is counter-survival.
Looking at the video and thinking you see the whole picture is a mistake.
Dennymack
Here’s what really sucks about it and is colossally stupid.
By raising so much hell over this issue the press guarantees that civilian casualties will INCREASE, because the soldiers won’t risk a situation where they can “see” that the enemy is “injured” and have to decide whether to shoot and risk being caught on tape or maybe half their unit getting wiped out by a faker.
Nope. They’ll just “indiscriminately” lob in a few extra shells or handgrenades to be sure. (Thats not to say it won’t be very well targeted, the quotes mean that’s how it’s going to get portrayed.)
“Think they’re all dead yet?”
“Nah, I the last body I saw blasted into the air was still in one piece. Hit ’em again.”
It’s inevitable that such an approach will increase the likelihood of accidents, misunderstanding and civilian deaths, which will only drive the media & left into a greater frenzy.
Oh wait, maybe they’re not being so stupid after all….
The NY Times is now reporting a videotape showing the execution of “aid director Margaret Hassan”:http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/16/international/middleeast/16cnd-host.html?hp&ex=1100667600&en=66e558093f7487f4&ei=5094&partner=homepage; the enemy had kidnapped her on Oct. 19.
This murder may pre-date the mosque incident — the video went to Al Jazzera, which might take time — so this presumably would not be related to the mosque shooting.
Ms. Hassan was a civilian and the director of CARE in Iraq, and had been for a number of years.
Dennymack
“I guess that is the cost of being on the side that violates truce flags. ”
Spot. Fucking. On.
“This war will end when Americans get to see every night at dinner what their sons and daughters are becoming …”
Fortunately the overwhelming majority of US servicemen are not driven by hatred and impotent rage, so they are in no danger of becoming like Atrios.
Perhaps you meant to say, “It’s not the MOST horrible thing, though.”
I find this event distressing, in that US Marines are somehow supposed to be Miranda-rights reading white-hats? Are they serious? That is not how combat, any combat, is. I can’t sit back and judge this Marine. The world’s worst judge, of course, is a camera. Or a reporter sitting in a NYC office.
These folks were terrorist combatants, and while they might have been injured, others had “played dead” and set Marines up with booby traps and ambushes. I haven’t seen any footage of *that* on TV, as a counterpoint to the incident-in-question. Of course no-one has the stomach for the proscribed end for Non-uniformed combatants in a war zone… summary execution. No Gitmo, no tribunal, no nothing. Bang.
ronin who said anything about miranda?
Now you are saying the guy was a wounded “terrorist.” We do’t even know he was a combatant never mind an illegal combatant.
According to our own count 90% of the males left in Fallujah are NOT insurgents. population 300,000, we let the women and children go and turned “military age males” back into the city. We clain there were 3,000 to 2,000 insurgents. see the math problem?
this mosque was the scene of a firefight, there could have been a mix of combatants and non combatant civilians. the Marines who first took the mosque left these men there. there is NO suggestion that the injured were even among the hostiles.
you can not attack a city which you youself state has 20,000 to 100,000 civilian military age males and assume all males are enemy. that is an excellent way to turn everyone into enemy.
Yeah oldvet he was sitting in a mosque in midst of a hail of bullets and rockets merely drinking a spot of fucking tea. Nevermind the fact that when your clearing an area your not going to take the time to wrestle up some insurgents to take along for the ensuing CQC in the next building. And here I thought I heard it all.
I hope this isn’t a repeat
Does anybody have a post with a timeline for how the tape got on the air? I’ve seen many posts elsewhere saying the military saw this tape before it went out.