From Penn Gillette, in Reason –
“I get that feeling that maybe I endorse some stuff that doesn’t make sense, and I’d like someone to beat me up about that a little more. I have a certain kind of peacenik default in all my interactions. If you ask me, “Should we have been in World War II?,” I instantly say no. World War I, certainly no. Vietnam, certainly no. Iraq, no. I really seem to think that the answer to everything is peace, and I’m not sure I can support that. I have this weird kind of feeling that if I knew enough, maybe peace isn’t always the answer.”
From James Carroll, in the Boston Globe –
“WHY DON’T we Americans look directly at the war? We avert our gaze, knowing that the situation in Iraq grows more desperate by the day. Vaunted “coalition” efforts to “break the back” of the “insurgency” have only strengthened it. The violence among Iraqis would surely qualify as civil war — except that only one side is fighting. The structures of relief and repair are gone. Whole cities are destroyed, populations displaced. The hope of Iraqi elections is mortally compromised. “Coalition” members are dropping out. The mission of American force is to secure the country, but it can’t secure itself. The performance of US intelligence has been consistent: Its strategic failures caused the war, and its tactical ignorance of the enemy is losing the war.”
and
“On the other side, it is the proliferation of suicide-bombing that has come to seem normal. Soldiers commonly risk their lives for nation, honor, or buddy — but they will not kill themselves with forethought, in large numbers, except for the most transcendent of reasons. The United States has given itself an enemy that shows by its central tactic that it is fighting for God.”
…talk amongst yourselves…
The majority of Americans aren’t looking at the conflicts of the Middle East from the right perspective. It’s not a “war on terror” or a battle against “Islamofacism”. It’s actually a health issue. Almost a billion inhabitants of the earth have, to a greater or lesser degree, a mental illness called Islam. Those most seriously infected must, like rabid dogs, be put down for the good of society as a whole. Others whose mental illness includes lesser levels of violence must be quarantined from the uninfected. Those with the least developed symptoms can be treated with educational programs. Only by attacking the problem from this angle will we be successful in bringing civilization to that part of the world.
I’d say I disagree with Tom Hewitt quite a bit. I guess I don’t believe that Islam is a disorder any more (or possibly any less) than any other -ism (or -ity) including Christianity. And for goodness sake, Tom, if we can’t bring ourselves to quarantine actual communicable diseases with no known cure anymore is there any likelihood whatsoever that we’ll quarantine Islam? With the social, economic, and political consequences that would entail? Stuff and nonsense.
I’m not an isolationist. I’m not a pacifist. And I’m not a nihilist like so many of those who despise what we’re doing but have no constructive suggestions to offer either.
As the Penn Gillette quote suggests the tragedy of existence is that we must make imperfect judgments from imperfect information. But refusing to make those judgments is in my view a far greater sin than waiting forever for perfect information. Failing to act has consequences, too.
And the tragedy of the fix that we’re in right now in my view is that we’re caught between the alternatives of having to kill some people now or killing many, many more later.
Penn’s quote was refreshing. This one might have been even better:
bq.. “What really gratifies me about [his show] is that people who are on the show that we call a**holes and stupid dipsh**s — using those words — those people get back in touch and do not feel that they were taken out of context. How enormous is that? I mean, talk to the people in the Michael Moore movies. Do they feel that way?
I get along so much better with fundamentalist Christians than I do with wishy-washy liberals, who want everyone to get along. I can walk up to a Christian and say, “I’m an atheist. I don’t believe this. State your point.” They state their point. That’s what respect is.”
p. Bingo.
As for Carroll….
Must be nice being a Boston Globe reporter and not having to know anything about history. Or noticing that actually, both sides in Iraq ARE fighting, and it’s a battle whose outscome is very much in doubt. I noticed he didn’t pay attention to the Shi’ite and Kurd factors, which matter a great deal. But then, I guess he doesn’t have to know much about Iraq to comment on it. After all, he’s a reporter.
He might also take a history class or three.
The central tactic of the suicide bombers is not a new thing, not even as a religious tactic. There have been suicide squads throughout history, from Roman times to the Japanese kamikazes. When faced with a real Western army, their ferocity has counted for little and they have lost. Badly. And then the whole “sacrifice yourself for your God” b.s. goes away, because it obviously isn’t working and the promoters (who generally don’t volunteer, notice) take too much punishment.
“Fighting for God” does not make people invincible. Perhaps if more reporters also understood religion from the inside, that would be more obvious.
What has changed is the growing ability of such “suicide squads” to inflict higher and higher levels of damage on civilized socieites, thanks to advances in technology. It strikes me as a really good idea to do the whole “crush the growing dealth cult” thing before one of its minions shows up 20 years from now infected with a pneumonia/Ebola chimera virus as his “bomb” and wanders around New York for a couple weeks.
But, again, you’d have to actually be paying attention out there and asking what needs to be done, instead of indulging yourself in an overwrought, defeatist wank-off.
This next quote set is a much more perfect representation of where Carroll is coming from:
bq. “The barbarity of the Iraqi insurgency has been a particular source of repugnance. First it was hostage-taking, and beheading — low-tech “shock and awe” assaults aimed at “foreigners,” precisely to terrorize their sponsoring populations. The apparent murder of the admirable Margaret Hassan, war-opponent and humanitarian worker, was especially deplorable.
Thanks for clearing your throat, Jim. Can we get on to the “but” and focus on to the real enemy now?
bq.. But it takes a disciplined imagination to acknowledge that the less personal savageries of bombs, missiles, artillery, and heavy weapons are, to those blown to smithereens, also barbaric. The main horror of what the “coalition” is doing is not a matter of the occasional soldier who, in the heat of battle, commits a war crime, but the steady destruction rained on cities, villages, the Iraqi people. This violence is wreaked calmly, from a distance, within the rules of engagement.
The war itself is the American war crime. But that is lost in the “normalcy” of the news.”
p. What an a**hole and stupid dipsh**. Faced with barbarity and terrorist violence, he literraly can’t think of anything else to do but surrender, and resort to wild untruths. Why? because he can’t bear to fight back and maybe get his nice suit dirty.
As you can see, Islamists aren’t the only ones in this little drama with suicidal impulses – and an interest in taking us with them.
If Carroll wants to surrender, I recommend that he go find the Iraqi insurgents and do so in person. They’ll be glad to restock their “guest houses,” he’ll get his wish and put his principles into action, and I’ll be happy too. Heck, I’ll even pay for his ticket. It would be worth it.
>>Almost a billion inhabitants of the earth have, to a greater or lesser degree, a mental illness called Islam. Those most seriously infected must, like rabid dogs, be put down for the good of society as a whole.
Ok, let’s see if I can get banned from this site by using the above logic on other groups.
“Almost ten million inhabitants of the earth have, to a greater or lesser degree, a mental illness called Judaism. Those most seriously infected must, like rabid dogs, be put down for the good of society as a whole.”
“Almost two billion inhabitants of the earth have, to a greater or lesser degree, a mental illness called Christianity. Those most seriously infected must, like rabid dogs, be put down for the good of society as a whole.”
Or, most logically, given recent history:
“Almost one billion inhabitants of the earth have, to a greater or lesser degree, a mental illness called Communism (or athiesm, if you prefer). Those most seriously infected must, like rabid dogs, be put down for the good of society as a whole.”
Why don’t we just save everyone a bunch of time and go straight to the Agent Smith solution:
“There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we are the cure.”
I doubt a regular commenter will get banned for “pouncing”:http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006064.php#c4 on a case of “cluelessness”:http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006064.php#c1 that’s already drawn a “sensible rebuke.”:http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006064.php#c2 But oft-reasonable commenters build their reputations up by being, often, reasonable.
We tried to recruit Agent Smith for President, but his representative said he had “sailed into The West of Middle Earth” and was unreachable for engagements. We assume this must be some sort of sub-program environment. He was also declining comment on widespread rumours that one of those virus types was boinking his daughter Arwen.
Guess we’re going to have to solve this little problem some other way.
>>The main horror of what the “coalition” is doing is not a matter of the occasional soldier who, in the heat of battle, commits a war crime, but the steady destruction rained on cities, villages, the Iraqi people. This violence is wreaked calmly, from a distance, within the rules of engagement.
It would be helpful to have a “by the numbers” assessment of this sort of thing. We should have better numbers on Iraqi civilians toasted by air power vs. Iraqi civilians killed by terrorist insurgents.
If the numbers are comparable then USG forces have a big problem regardless of how well meaning they are.
>>I doubt a regular commenter will get banned for pouncing on a case of cluelessness that’s already drawn a sensible rebuke.
Anti-Islamism is “cluelessness.” How interesting. Are people that want extremist Jews and Christians to be “put down like rabid dogs” simply “clueless”?
If somebody seriously proposed here that the “Jewish problem” needed to be solved by “reeducation programs,” “quarantine,” or, in extreme cases, “being put down like rabid dogs” they would be GONE.
#8 TJ Madison,
>If somebody seriously proposed here…
Um, check your “post #4;”:http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006064.php#c4 you’re still here. OK granted you weren’t serious. D’ya think, seriously, that if poster #1 can’t do better that he’ll be around for long? C’mon.
Last word on this to you, TJ, though if we both just move on then maybe nobody will tag either of us with feeding the …
Joe … excellent analysis and it points to something I think larger.
Western societies insulate people from violence, it’s not (thankfully) part of everyday, ordinary, experience. Thus, when confronted by a problem that ONLY violence will solve, Westerners look away and fall into fantasies.
See: Cambodia/Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, Saddam, the Mullahs, etc.
There was a Superman comic in 1938 where Superman grabbed up Hitler and Stalin and had them tried by the League of Nations for war-mongering, “solved” the problem. This is essentially the fantasy of many in the West, from ALL sides of the political spectrum, though concentrated among the Left more than the Right.
Look at all the “poor victims” movies, ala Life is Beautiful, Hotel Rwanda, etc. At no time is Hollywood comfortable with a guy who might … actually fight back. Instead we get “sad clowns” etc. who don’t threaten the worldview that “violence solves nothing.” Violence often does solve things (sadly). That’s just reality to the “reality based community.”
Amnesty International, Save the Children, Human Rights Watch, and Doctors Without Borders do admirable work in dangerous, appalling conditions, but they have never done more than slap a band-aid over the real problem … brutal oppressive dicators and warlords. The only solution is for real, powerful, Western Armies come in and kill the bad guys. Superman isn’t going to exile the bad guys into the Phantom Zone and it’s time we in the West came to grips with violence and it’s uses.
“Terrorists do not kill to kill. They kill to sway public opinion. Obviously we are winning.”
“Terrorists don’t fight to kill American soldiers; they fight to kill the will of American mothers.”
Osama bin Laden
as paraphrased by G.M.
Terrorism:
To kill the will.
The weapon is fear.
The vehicle is “news”.
Killing is just propaganda.
If terrorism inspires anger
terrorism has failed.
The idea is to make you afraid
not angry.
G.M
It’s interesting that some of you take things so literally. The key word is perspective. If the defenders of western civilization continue to consider the Islamofascist-Western conflict as a “war”, the Islamofascists will win. They have no states, no borders. They have an ideology. They have easy access to effective weapons and Saudi financing. They wish to replicate the chaos they have produced in Iraq worldwide. This conflict is being conducted outside the paradigm of generalized conflict as the west has known it. Its conclusion will not end in a ceremony at Appamatox Courthouse or on the deck of the battleship Missouri. And it could go on for decades.
Optimistic Westerners should look at the 16th century example of the Conquistador-Aztec confrontation in Mexico. By any standards, the Aztecs were, as a society, “mentally ill”. The human sacrifices and cruelty of the Aztecs, which inspired complete hatred in the surrounding tribes, made the bloodthirsty Spaniards look like nice people. We’ve not seen a return of Aztec society. Hopefully, someday we’ll be able to say the same about Islam.
Tom Hewett, thanks for returning to the thread to post again. (#12). You wrote,
> It’s interesting that some of you take things so literally.
But here’s what you said at the top of this thread (#1; emphasis added):
If you write about current events using analogies that are this careless, even murderous, don’t be surprised when you get taken for a troll.
I don’t think you mean to be trollish; perhaps you are trying to explain the terrible choices that the West may soon face, if the militant Islamists acquire operational A-bombs. If so, please read Wretchard’s essay “The Three Conjectures.” “Here”:http://windsofchange.net/archives/005478.php is a Winds of Change post that links the essay, and other relevant pieces. Browsing that entire thread may help you understand the perspectives of some of the posters and regular commenters here.
‘We’ do not agree amongst ‘ourselves’ on either the diagnosis or the treatment, but it’s hardly a case of unfamiliarity with the symptoms.
You are known here only by the words you post. Literally. Conversations will be more valuable if you apply that small insight.
http://run.to/nostradamus
Century VIII, Quatrain 66 (édition de 1568)
Quand l’escriture D.M.trouuee,
Et caue antique à lampe descouuerte,
Loy, Roy,& Prince Vlpian esprouuee,
Pauillon Royne & Duc sous la couuerte.
When the inscription D.M. is found
in the ancient cave, revealed by a lamp.
Law, the King and Prince Ulpian tried,
the Queen and Duke in the pavilion under cover.
The D.M. stands for Depeche Mode…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcT3Y9PBew&search=enjoy%20the%20silence
The word TRAGEDY literally means “GOAT SONG”. tragis oide: “goat
song”; perhaps the derivation of the word “tragedy” (were goats
awarded as prizes? does this refer to the ritualistic slaughter of the
sacrificial animal? the scream that the goat makes when slaughtered?)
NOTICE HOW BUSH IS READING ABOUT A GOAT ****EXACTLY**** AS THE WTC
BURNS…..
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.htm
Nostradamus – USA
The truth about Nostradamus
Considering all the lies that were spread about Nostradamus following
9/11 it is necessary to reveal what he actually wrote….
X.72…. Here is an example of a “perfect match prophecy,” with date
and
event WHILE revealing the AGE of CIVILIZATION. Not the Stone Age or the
Bronze Age but the SPACE AGE.
NOSTRADAMUS REVEALS THE AGE OF CIVILIZATION IN THE YEAR 1999
(SPACE AGE).
What Britannica says about the SPACE AGE, “…Post 1945.. It justifies
the
description of this period, however, as that of “space age technology.”
Subject: THE ACTUAL 1999 PROPHECY BY NOSTRADAMUS – X, 72
1) What relevant social-historical material can you
find in the quatrain
X.72?
Only the last line relates the quatrain to the *entire
world* and refers to
*particular* level of global social and historical
development. Advanced
technological civilization has created the means to
travel many millions of
miles through space.
Show me something in the quatrain that reveals the
type of world we lived in
during 1999?
The quatrain deals with the all-embracing nature of
technology and science
in human affairs and their destructive and repressive
use. It refers to a
specific stage of human technological and scientific
development, a phase of
human civilization called the “SPACE AGE.”
Is there something unique in that quatrain which links
it to 1999 and is
found during no other time in human history?
Spaceships have been sent to Mars for quite a while.
BUT IN *ONE* YEAR
(1999) *TWO* SPACESHIPS WERE DESTROYED *ON* MARS.
(i.e., The year
1999….BEFORE AND AFTER MARS REIGNS WITH GOOD
FORTUNE). That is a world
historical novelty.
Other interpretations cannot point to objective
*concrete reality* and just
assume that the prophecy contains no social-historical
*BACKGROUND*.
Indeed, it would be no prophecy if it could not point
to the concrete world
we actually live in.
Century X. Quatrain 72
L’an mil neuf cens nonante neuf sept mois
Du ciel viendra un grand Roy deffraieur
Resusciter le grand Roy d’Angolmois.
*Avant apres Mars regner par bon heur.*
THE ACTUAL X.72 PROPHECY BY NOSTRADAMUS:
Century X, Quatrain 72
The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of Angolmois,
*BEFORE AND AFTER MARS TO REIGN WITH GOOD FORTUNE.*
SEE DOUBLE?
DATE: 1999. PLACE: MARS.
BEFORE AND AFTER = X 2.
THE FIRST PART OF THE PROPHECY IS CLEAR ENOUGH AND DOES NOT
REQUIRE
*INTERPRETATION*.
THE THIRD LINE SHOWS THAT PROFOUND *MYSTERY* SURROUNDS THE
ENTIRE UNIVERSE.
HUMAN REASON ONLY TOUCHES THE VERY SURFACE
OF REALITY. THE TRUE NATURE OF THE UNIVERSE CAN NEVER BE
UNDERSTOOD OR
CONTROLLED BY THE MIND. IN OTHER WORDS, THINGS ARE NOT AS THEY
SEEM…
HENCE THE LAST LINE…
THE FINAL LINE OF THE PROPHECY IS ABOUT THE DESTRUCTION OF THE *TWO*
SPACESHIPS ON MARS IN *1999*.
YOU “MISSED” THE CRITICAL 1999 PROPHECY THAT DEALS WITH THE VERY
LIMITS OF
HUMAN TECHNOLOGICAL AND SCIENTIFIC DEVELOPMENT AND THEIR
ULTIMATE AND
CATASTROPHIC FAILURE!
COINCIDENCE? YOU BE THE JUDGE….
http://www.channel4000.com/sh/news/stories/nat-news-990923-122128.html
Scientists Say It Broke Up Before It Reached Mars
PASADENA, Calif. Posted 10:05 a.m.
SEPTEMBER 23, 1999 — A $125 million
spacecraft designed to be NASA’s first
interplanetary weather satellite was presumed
lost on Mars Thursday after it failed to regain
contact with Earth following a critical engine
firing to place it in orbit around the red
planet.
A preliminary analysis shows that Mars Climate
Orbiter made too close an approach to the
planet and likely broke into pieces or burned
up in
the atmosphere, said
operations project manager Richard Cook of NASA’s
Jet
Propulsion
Laboratory (JPL).
http://www.channel2000.com/sh/news/stories/nat-news-19991205-021219.html
PASADENA, Posted 9:12 p.m. EST DECEMBER 4, 1999
—
For a
second day Saturday, NASA scientists anxiously
waited
for a signal from
the still-silent Mars Polar Lander, a craft
critics
say may have been in
trouble even before it left the launch pad 11
months
ago.
Weeks before the $165 million craft
began its descent towards the Red
Planet, questions were being raised
about the mission and whether it might
be doomed by tight budgets and
understaffing.
Attempts to detect signals from the
spacecraft were to continue with a
transmission window opening Saturday
night. It has not been heard from since Friday,
when
it began its fiery
descent toward Mars.
—————————————————————————-
—-
Did Nostradamus predict the Sept.11 disaster?
This quatrain reveals the style and hidden essence of the prophecies.
THE ACTUAL WTC PROPHECY BY NOSTRADAMUS – II, 89:
THE CROSS OF DESTRUCTION:
CENTURY II, QUATRAIN 89
Vn iour seront demis les deux grands maistres,
Leur grand pouuoir se verra augmenté:
La terre neuue sera en ses hauts estres,
Au sanguinaire le nombre racompté.
One day the two great masters will be halved,
Their great power will be seen increased:
The new land will be at its high peak,
To the Bloody One the number recounted.
*SEE DOUBLE?*
New Land = America (SEE X,66)
The Bloody One = Antichrist (SEE X, 66)
Time of prophecy: One day.
Two great masters halved: 2 skyscrapers of WTC and 2 aircraft. Also
symbolic
of TECHNOLOGY and CAPITALISM concretely embodied by the *planes* and
*towers*.
Place of destruction: The high peak of the
“New Land.”
Mode of destruction: Number recounted = x2.
The American Antichrist of X,66 and the
“King of Terror” of X,72 is the “BLOODY ONE.”
See how X.72 provides the starting DATE (1999) and how X.66 provides
the
PLACE (AMERICA) for the destructive revelations of the Antichrist (THE
BLOODY ONE)? See how each quatrain is linked together?
SEA OF SIN:
Century X, Quatrain 49
Iardin du monde aupres de cité neufue,
Dans le chemin des montaignes cauees:
Sera saisi & plongé dans la Cuve,
Beuuant par force eaux soulphre enuenimees.
Garden of the world near the new city,
In the path of the HOLLOW MOUNTAINS:
It will be seized and plunged into the Tub,
Forced to drink waters poisoned by sulfur.
“Jardin du monde” = Garden of Eden or
“Hanging Gardens of Babylon,” which are
both located in Iraq.
“Cite neufue” = New York City.
(i.e., Iraq near New York City).
Which implies that Iraq is somehow
involved in the September 11 attacks. The
“hollow mountains” links time, place, and
action of the prophecy. The “hollow
mountains” is Nostradamus’ description
of the two skyscrapers of the WTC.
“In the path of the hollow mountains”
means what comes after the WTC
destruction.
Seized and plunged in the “Cuue”
(i.e., in Renaissance French, a fermentation
cauldron used for mixing chemicals,
poisons, etc) is a reference to the seizures
and drowning effects of a
chemical/biological attack and/or modern day plague and/or modern dat
flood (tsunami?).
Notice “Cuue” is capitalized in the original quatrain
(SEE ABOVE) to show that this is the most
important element in the quatrain.
The poisoning of the water mentioned here
is of an entirely different nature, as boiling
the water or bottled water–if it were meant
literally–could eliminate the poison.
But this poisoning is far more serious as it
cannot be avoided (i.e., forced to drink).
The drowning effects of pulmonary
anthrax or some other chemical/biological
poison is implied.
Sulfur is a symbolic reference to brimstone
(i.e., The Wrath of God). Water is the way
God destroys man during the “Flood.”
Century X, Quatrain 66
Le chef de Londres par regne l’Americh,
L’isle d’Escosse t’empiera par gelée :
Roy Rebauront un si faux Antechrist,
Que les mettra trestous dans la meslée.
The chief of London through the realm of AMERICA,
The Isle of Scotland will be tried by frost:
King Reb will face an Antichrist so false,
That he will place them in the conflict all together.
There are only “two” quatrains that mention the
Antichrist specifically (X,66 & VIII,77).
There is only “one” specific reference to America
found in the quatrains (X,66).
The Antichrist’s main target of destruction is
“America” (i.e., he will exercise his destructive
power through the realm of America).