Matt Yglesias disagrees with Amy Sullivan on the issues of culture.
He dismisses her position by suggesting that
a) It’s just posturing for electoral effect, hence shoddy;
b) There’s no real harm flowing from the media;
c) If there were, it’d be constitutionally protected anyway.
But taking this crowd at their word and assuming they actually don’t want to see censorship, what do they want? Feckless posturing a la Joe Lieberman, I suppose, where politicians will publicly denounce various shows, movies, or video games they find distasteful and then not do anything about it. That’s better than censorship, and if it’s really what the Democrats need to do to win elections I guess I’ll live with it, but it’s pretty silly. Does anybody really want to see America’s elected officials operating as freelance cultural critics? Wouldn’t that be a little silly? Aren’t they bound to do a bad job of it? More to the point, such an effort would only be meaningful if the (implicit, at least) threat of censorship lurked in the background, just as the politicians of several generations ago convinced the comic book industry to start censoring itself by making it clear that if they didn’t do it, Congress would. This isn’t an improvement over actual censorship by any metric I can think of. Which would all be worth contemplating if there were a substantive problem this was supposed to be addressing, but it seems to be nothing more than a crass stunt.
Well, actually it’s not.
First, there’s an intermediate set of steps between embracing Whoopi Goldberg onstage – after she riffs on her anatomy and the President’s last name – and marching into Warner Brothers with a five-gallon jug of gasoline, some rags, and a Bic lighter.
Yglesias names one of them – criticize publicly – and casually dismisses it. There’s an even simpler one, which is simply not to invite entertainment figures who think that making gynecological jokes in public is a good idea.
There’s another simple step, which is to say – instead of “This is the heart and soul (and bush, I guess) of America,” after a performance like Whoopi’s – “Whoopi, I’m really disappointed in what you just said, and I’d like to take this moment to apologize to my honorable opponent.”
You don’t have to threaten censorship in order to publicly disapprove, and to suggest that others should as well.
I have a deeper theory about the role of “legalization” – the concept that all social forces must be reduced to laws – in modern liberal thought, but it’s not fair to hang that issue on a casual post of Matthew’s. Because the only points he seemed to see in it were the use of the law, threats to use the law, or “do whatever you want.”
Those are not the only possible actions.
I think that “DHinMI”:http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2005/04/screw_the_cultu.html had the best thoughts on this debate. Matt is pretty clearly wrong on the politics here. It’s much easier to align than to persuade.
bq. It’s much easier to align than to persuade.
Especially when the ideas are bankrupt eh ?
How about Freedom, Liberty, the chains and shackles applied to the rulers.
A nation of soverien individuals, of right holding freemen.
Such principles are trancendent
Yeah leave the ideas to us.
The others, bankrupt of ideas, reduced to carping and crude jokes, clearly having lost the debate of ideas, only point out themselves as the loser.
The problem for the “progressives” (communist-lite) is that they cant really come out and say what they stand for, ohh sure the ANSWER moonbats do, and are covered over by the leftist media to prevent damage to the democrats image, certainly say what they are about.
But the more savy that march with them, or may not march but vote with them, are more savy about how marxist flavored pap would be rejected if offered open and honestly.
So let them go on with their offensives to americas sensibilities, they are the best players we have on the other side. they highlight the differences them and us.
You soon become just like those you sleep with, something too few democrats, other than the like of Zell Miller can see, as they sleep with the commies, share the venue with them, mixing their agenda with yours, with the automatic result, you cant tell the difference.
Liberalism mixed with communism, is communism.
Kinda like rat poison ya know, 98% is good food, and the marxist incredient in the democrat party is far more than that.
I didnt invent the term Cultural Marxism.
Perhaps they are just starting to notice, there is a entire america out ther that dont buy their filth, dont watch their filth, who view their antics with loathing and disdain.
Mell Gibson and his film was taking flak before it even came out, and did better than the 99% of the crap they make.
You would think they didnt know about this market, but they knew. they actively do not want to serve that market, it dont fit with the agenda.
Well at least they didnt go and make threats against theaters who dared to try and show Mells film like they did the Stolen Honor film. showing up with threats to riot forcing the owner to cancel. more democrat thuggery on display.
But, that again, shows the diffeence, them and us.
The people doing actual cencorship, are the left.
the people screaming cencorship are the left.
Projection seems to be the democratus marxus modus operandus.
Yglesias: Which would all be worth contemplating if there were a substantive problem this was supposed to be addressing, but it seems to be nothing more than a crass stunt.
I don’t know why Yglesias bothered to post on this at all, just to leap once again to the same tired old foregone conclusion.
Once again a discussion of values or culture – which liberals like Yglesias cannot understand as anything more than political code words – prompts the same familiar series of knee-jerks. “Values” means political trouble for Democrats, so anyone who mentions them is an instant target of hostility.
Joe Lieberman is a favorite punching bag in this regard, so it’s not surprising that he springs to Yglesias’ mind. “Feckless posturing … silly … crass …”
That’s mild compared to what Lieberman got from Robert Scheer when Lieberman dared to question the values of our late King William the First: “A carping Clinton critic … duller and more sanctimonious [than Al Gore] … right-wing jackal … sanctimonious … obnoxious … prude.”
And the drumbeat going on underneath this is: Hypocrite, hypocrite, hypocrite. Nobody really believes in God, morals, or any of that crap. It’s all pandering and posturing at best – at worst, creeping totalitarianism.
Just recently I saw a local TV interview with a senior Navy Corpsman who was a combat veteran of Korea, Vietnam, GWI, and now of Iraq. The interviewer brought up the “chickenhawk” argument. The Corpsman replied that he didn’t vote for people based on whether they were veterans or not, he voted for people that shared his values. Who do you think he voted for?
Since leftists consistently attack any public dialog about values, is there any basis at all to believe that they have any?
The values of the left appear to be nihilism, libertinism and marxism. No wonder they don’t want to talk about values.
I’d say from the numbers that more and more people are simply turning this $#|+ off … which is the best and most sustainable solution.
One would take these kinds of posts more seriously if there was an equivalent demand that the GOP start apologizing for the Limbaughs, Coulters, and the rest of the people whom it literally embraces and promotes.
Whoopi Goldberg’s routine was done before a private, paying audience — in other words, consenting adults. It was not broadcast to the entire nation. Coulter, Limbaugh, Horowitz, Malkin, et al spew their lies and hate in the public sphere, but the “moralists” never take them to task for their degradation of “civil discourse.”
In other words, any American president, or any of his supporters, who does not condemn those like Coulter who have said that disagreeing with that president is “treason” deserves to be called a cunt.
Freedom and restriction by LAW are the only alternetives the liberals understand. If social pressure were applied that would be “bullying”.
When was the last time Anne Coulter appeared on stage with George Bush? Context is everything. As my mom used to say, you are who your friends are, fair or not.
As far as why no-one had the grace to object, even mildly, the answer is this: they dont find it objectionable. Its a matter of taste, and it suits the elite taste, which is fine. The fact that it rubs much of America the wrong way is a political consideration. Why should John Kerry pretend he’s not a Massachussetts snob? _He is a Massachussetts snob_. Thats fine, its not a crime. But he wasnt going to be elected president is all. That comes back to the suicidal Democratic party that decided a Vietnam war vet would poll well despite all the other baggage. Just bad judgement. John Kerry wasnt going to object to Whoopi, he wasnt offended. Now if Zell Miller was the candidate, things would have been different, because he honestly wouldnt have agreed with the subject matter or the classlessness. Its not rocket surgery, you cant fake genuineness.
I don’t take Coulter et. al. terribly seriously as political thinkers (although I do think Rush is funny and Coulter and Malkin are profoundly hot). Coulter’s definition of treason is, to say the least, rather broad. But to be fair, Coulter never said simple disagreement with the president was treason. And also to be fair, I’ve yet to hear W proclaim that Coulter, Rush, Malkin et al represent the “heart and soul of America.”
But to be fair, Coulter never said simple disagreement with the president was treason.
no, she just says that liberals who disagree with Bush are treasonous.
I think there’s two intertwined issues here: One is culture as a political issue (hard laws, soft criticism, etc.) and the other is culture as a vehicle for communicating your personality to the public. A lot of people say that they choose their president primarily on the basis of “thinks like me.”
Kerry failed on both aspects of culture. He failed to have any policy stance on culture and he communicated to the voters that he did not share the same culture as the rest of us, i.e. _Massachussetts snob_.
Patrick
Is it possible to have a calm and rational discussion here anymore?
Well, we’re still doing a lot better than Johnson and Drum, but this thread doesn’t seem horrible, prak…what’s bothering you so much about it?
A.L.
And praktike, to be clear, I quoted you but I didnt aim at you.
The sneering by the left at the values debate (and anyone that has them), while at the same time resorting to BushHitler, Bush Lied, etc. those looking for something to get Delay with, because they cant match him on ideas they are willing to express openly.
Those still pushing planks out of the communist manifesto, right down to the progressive income tax, that comes, from the communist manifesto.
Where every year is a new advance to push marxism from a different angle.
Where are the ideas ?
I dont think they lack ideas, its that they know socialism is getting rejected, to get power again they must hide the leftist agenda, repackage it again. pretend to be something else.
Marxist slavery, from pure communism to redistribution via taxation, isnt selling.
The dream os one world govt under the UN seems to be failing, the enshrined socialist paradise of the EU is in trouble and the EU constitution looks like it will be rejected.
(without that leftist lock-in they let slip was so important, removing the chance to lock out the ability of the votiing public to reverse things)
The old tactics of calling their opposition “racist” et al no longer has the old impact.
their chokhold on information and shaping th news isnt what it once was, the days when Walter Chronkite can push leftist fraud on the people, like the Tet offensive that was an overwelming defeat for the perps of the %5 murder quota, as the opposite, a defeat for the US.
They wasnt able to paint the swift boaters and the POWS, some with congressional medals of honor, as partisan liars, instead, its the leftist media thats exposed as partisan liars.
I understand their angst I think, but we arnt even half done, they aint seen nuttin Yet.
lukasiak: she just says that liberals who disagree with Bush are treasonous.
For an example of what happens to Democrats who occasionally agree with Bush, try googling “Lieberman” and “traitor”.
For an example of what happens to Democrats who occasionally agree with Bush, try googling “Lieberman” and “traitor”.
for an example of a stupid comparison, see above. Lieberman is accused of being disloyal to his party—a far cry from an accusation of treason to one’s country.
_______________________
A lot of people say that they choose their president primarily on the basis of “thinks like me.” ….he communicated to the voters that he did not share the same culture as the rest of us, i.e. Massachussetts snob.”
no, the media communicated that to the American people. The media portrayed Bush, who is something of a wimp, a coward, a klutz (afraid of horses, avoided Vietnam service, falls off bicycles, ) as a “man’s man”. Kerry, on the other hand, is both truly athletic and of unquestioned physical courage, was portrayed as an “effete liberal”. Both were in fact products of elite New England society, and went to exclusive private schools and colleges. The primary difference between the two is that Bush’s family moved to a Texas town that was segregated by law (in Midland when Bush was growing up, things were so bad that Blacks could only be seen on the streets if they were in work clothes) when he was about four years old, while Kerry’s father, a Foreign Service Officer during the Eisenhower administration, travelled extensively after moving his family from Colorado to Massachusetts. And when Kerry got out of law school he became a tough prosecutor. Bush, on the other hand, spent his post Business School life in a series of failed businesses which were being constantly bailed out by his father’s friends.
Kerry clearly reflected American values far more that Bush — but the media found it far easier to go with the “manly” Texas vs “effete” Massachusetts cliche.
p.lukasiak,
Is this really the kind of stuff that you sit around thinking about? If so, you are clearly suffering from BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome). You might consider a therapist.
lukasiak: Lieberman is accused of being disloyal to his party—a far cry from an accusation of treason to one’s country.
I guess you got a point there. Especially when he’s only being disloyal to … you know, that party.
lukasiak: … the media found it far easier to go with the “manly” Texas vs “effete” Massachusetts cliche.
I’d like to check your facts on that one. Which parallel universe does this media exist in, and how many megawatts of power does it take to open a trans-dimensional rift?
bq. no, the media communicated that to the American people. The media portrayed Bush, who is something of a wimp, a coward, a klutz (afraid of horses, avoided Vietnam service, falls off bicycles, ) as a “man’s man”. Kerry, on the other hand, is both truly athletic and of unquestioned physical courage, was portrayed as an “effete liberal”.
So the leftist media, that dare not go full tilt leftist moonbat, because they know all of america (except the moonbats) would see them as kooks.. the fact that they are savy about what what level of leftist fraud america will accept, who tone down and hide their leftism to preserve credibility, are clearly the right wing arm of the Bushco team, seen from where you are.
Which of course, tells us where you are, far out fringe commie left, and does nothing to redefine them.
Its a good thing you are not media savy, if the media showed leftist moonbats with their Bushitler signs and their affection for Islamo-socialist killers and their depictions of the head choppers as “freedom fighters” in all their glory, the democrat party would be history overnight.
They work really hard to hide the democrats embarrasing elements, and in doing so, do you a great service.
Its a GOOD thing you are so far out there, you cant see it.
bq. Kerry clearly reflected American values far more that Bush
Fake charges against the american military, flights to paris to consult with a regime that, among their many crimes against humanity, murdered their own people with a 5% death quota, to help them thru the tough spot they are in after their Tet defeat.
calling our POWs war criminals so that their return to the USA became in doubt, extending their stay for 2 years, so that more could die of torture. giving them hope to hold out, and in doing so playing a part in the mass murder of some 2 million people (equaling the Red Kihmers and their killing fields) and another 500,000 drowning in the south china sea.
Calling the perp of crimes against humanity, such as the 5% murder quota, the “George Washington” of Vietnam.
And along with that comes all the other leftist baggage, Kerry out lefted Kennedy on his voting record.
That “reflected American values”
You really think anyone falls for that crap ?
bq. “The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not “insurgents” or “terrorists” or “The Enemy.” They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow — and they will win. Get it, Mr. Bush?” — M Moore.
Amazing how fast the left can abandon their delusions of yesterday, and spin new ones.
One wonders of they would be so against democracy in Iraq, if they was not so heavily invested in its failure.
Whats it like, being proven wrong since 1917 ?
Whats it like to cling to a failed idea that piled up 174 million murdered people. the most evil of all evils the earth has seen.
How twisted must one be, to still hold to those ideas, and that mountain of skulls.
Welp, cling to your perceptions ole boy, the leftist media is in reality the political arm of bushco, their trashing of the swiftvets and the POWs was reverse phycology, so that us right wingnuts would fall for it.
yeah, thats the ticket.
So far gone you are, that even me telling you this, right to your face, and even if i was to spend the time to prove it all, it wouldnt affect you.
People like you, are the best people we have working on the other side, your warped perceptions are a benifit to us.
And me telling you, does not put that benifit at any risk of loss.
That is so sureal, and yet so real. one just cant help being amused.
“what’s bothering you so much about it?”
It was Raymond launching on my link for no apparent reason. I’ll just ignore from now on.
Screw the Culture War; Go Meet Voters Instead
bq. Atrios, Digby, Gilliard all make great arguments about why it would be dumb for us to try to ape the Repubs’ support for policies based on specific moral and religious beliefs. But let’s separate the idea of appealing to voters by expressing “respect” for their beliefs, and start working on showing how we don’t just respect but exemplify values like truthfulness, responsibility, trustworthiness, resolve and solidarity–all values that we already respect and that we share with the so-called “values voters,” many of whom voted for Bush even though they’d much rather spend their Sunday mornings in a deer blind or sleeping off their Saturday-night debauch than sitting in a pew.
His “link”:http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2005/04/screw_the_cultu.html
Not for no reason, praktike, tho I admit, when you said “It’s much easier to align than to persuade.” I took that as a knowing sneer, perhaps the opposite of what you meant.
Yes, not easy to persuade in a vacuum of ideas, the kind of vacuum you find in the attempt to serve up more socialist folly, all over again, that has not been rejected by the current generation.
And with search engines and free informaton flows and exchange … all the harder to reheat and serve the old ones, stinking with the smell of decay.
That fellow too, as much as those he is disecting, seems in the middle of the attempt to bypass thinking about the power of ideas and focusing on personality issues instead.
Does Michigan have a shall issue law for firearms ? when a blow downs trees across the road, do they come out with their own chain saws, or do they phone the govt to come take care of it for them ?
For the people he claims to have talked to, they dont seem far out of the leftist bubble, he is still talking about class so much ….
Those talking about class dont understand the reality of upwardly mobile America. nobody belongs to any “class” what ever condition you are in is temporary, there is always the open opertunity to improve, to follow your dreams thru hard work, and the ability to invest in your kids so thay can reach even higher than you did.
Talk of class is stasist pap, those in stasis, are there by choice.
By looking at others in terms of class, he denies the very thing that sets america apart, what has always set us apart. the very engine of our countries power success and wide shared prosperity. he has discarded, abandoned, the language of hope, hope that is real, not some hollow leftist propaganda.
He dont even understand who it is we refer to when we talk of the leftist-Liberal elite who look at those they rule stasis trapped droids the same way he does.
How can you talk about hope and opertunity when the only thing you offer is some govt largess that must come, ultamatly, out of his back pocket, since the consumer bears the cost of all passed down taxes represented in the final cost of his car house bread and milk anyway ?
Even the al-gore tiny tank toilets, their damage to the democrats is comming, most people still have their old hi flow toilets.
How many democrats you think you will lose when they are being caught at the canadian border attempting to smuggle in the replacement for their AlGore toilet ?
The law will be overturned eventually, but not before it has royally pissed off enough people and planted yet another data point of the democrat want to control even the kind of toilet he can have.
And yes its part of the values debate, the freedom to choose your own commode is right there, if you dont understand that, you dont understand anything.
Actually, its difficult to relate to the condition of being so obtuse to these things, Freedom, Liberty, and how offensive it is when the govt comes in to force gay acceptance and “safe sex” on your kids at school, while preaching hate for the country and ignoring math and literature entirly.
Or their “tax the rich” leftist jihads over the years, that every time has shoved the leftist boot in the backside of the working joe whose job was affected.
Rememeber the Luxury tax they slapped on the boat builders in florida et al, that almost exterminated the industry there and sent all that business overseas? all those workers who lost their jobs havent forgot.
We know why there are not shooting clubs and mosberg .22’s in the basement of new york high schools any more.
its because the left have destroyed things so much there the kids can no longer be trusted with them.
The left have taken us from high school shooting ranges, to high school shootings, to zero tolerance for a picture of your big brother serving in Iraq, where a stick figure lands 10 year olds in handcuffs
Its a leftist legacy that reponsibilities entrusted to high shoolers without incident are not even trusted to the adults today where the leftist liberals have long ruled.
Koyto was based on a fraud, but the mega jump on the poor average joes Gas, heating oil, and light bill to pay those carbon credits would have been real, and who was he going to blame that on hmmm?
when he found out those carbon payments went to prop up leftist despots in overseas hells, buy more fancy SUVs and child sex for the United Nations Toyota Taliban, how do you think he would like that?
He was damn sure gonna know about it. me and all those over on the other side of the debate with me, was damn sure gonna make sure he found out.
These are all tied up, and part of the values debate, they all spring from the same principles.
The SDS marxists who planned the democrat party takeover in the 60s sure knew this, its why they attacked western culture with as much zeal as they targeted free market western economics, its all rooted in the same idea.
Cultural Marxism, I didnt invent the term, but it was little doubt named by the right, when they understood it was part of the same battle from the same enemy advancing the same agenda.
All part of “Tear it all down man”
More are becomming wise to all of that, instead of increasing acceptance, the pushback is becoming a wave.
The same kind of wave Thompsen wrote about in fear and loathing, the leftist wave rolled back, and ours is building.
I guess We will see if the lefties have a more interesting solution than he did.
A couple of observations:
Joe Lieberman is as hated in his party as Zell Miller. Kos, Atrios, MoveOn are trying to fund a primary opponent against him, simply to punish him for his cultural support for the War (which matches Hillary, who had the same positions). Otherwise Lieberman was/is reliably Democratic. The Party simply has no tolerance for those who stray from the MoveOn/Kos line. This is why Howard Dean is the chair. It’s his Party, his backers “paid for it” in the words of MoveOn, they’re now calling the shots.
Culturally, the MoveOn elite is profoundly hostile to the concerns of families, and religion. Hillary took a lot of flack for criticizing Grand Theft Auto, which earns the player bonus points for picking up a prostitute and killing her. Amy Sullivan took a tremendous amount of personal abuse posting on Kevin Drum’s site for suggesting that families concerned about Friends threesome/masturbation jokes running at 8 pm on broadcast TV is not something they’re comfortable with.
WRT Religion, all religious people are lumped in with Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. The Party is VERY hostile to anyone overtly religious, with the (for now) tolerated exception of African American pastors. The Bush Administration has a huge outreach to African American Pastors (upset over gay marriage and other unacceptable to them secularization of culture) and religious Latinos, who’s cultural norms are vastly different from the core of the Democratic Party (think wealthy, urban yuppies with no families or an immigrant nanny). The Party cannot continue with profound hostility to religion (which is ingrained) and expect to pick up Latinos and African Americans for whom religion is a central part of life. Look at the success of Tyler Perry (Diary of a Mad Black Woman) and Sideways. African American and Latino voters will either migrate to the Republican Party or simply not vote in increasing numbers as Sideways folk push out the Diary folk.
WRT Bush and Kerry, in terms of style, it’s absolutely correct that both came from a somewhat elite background. If anything Bush was the true blue blood, while Kerry was the new arrival who desperately WANTED to be a blue blood. Which explains his downfall. Kerry was the middle class son of a Diplomat with no great personal wealth who constantly acted like JFK’s heir. Complete with Windsurfing, awkward tossing of footballs, “man-tans” and botox and other upper class stuff. GWB meanwhile pulled the greatest magic trick ever, convincing Americans he was the down home product of Midland TX and not Kennebunkport ME. His walk, his accent, his “swagger” all contributed to erasing his blue-blood image.
The WORST thing that ever happened to the Democratic Party was JFK and the Camelot myth. It encouraged the blue-blood elitism that infests the Party and provoked the sneering treatment of Zell Miller when he served out the late Paul Coverdell’s Senate Term as a favor to the Democratic Party. Twenty-something trust fund staffers would pick up on Kerry and Kennedy’s disdain for Appalachian born Miller and mock his accent, humble background, and love of the Marine Corps. Which explains why the former Gov. of Georgia who fought unsuccessfully to deep-six the Confederate Flag turned against his Party. Nominee after Nominee (Kerry, Gore, Dukakis, Mondale) as well as primary candidates (Biden, Hart, McCarthy) have played off this “Camelot” image of the upper class blue blood who’s noblesse oblige will rescue the country. Forgetting Kennedy was an aberration running against the most uncomfortable man in history, Richard Nixon, and coming after Eisenhower’s sluggishness.
For the Party to have any sway with the vast middle swaths of voters both white and minority, it must be comfortable with politicians genuinely ticked off at stuff that’s out of bounds or offensive, accepting of politicians who embrace religion as part of their identity and not “don’t really mean it” ala Kerry or Gore, and dump the Camelot myth for a tough, hardscrabble politician from the West or South who has the ordinary touch.
bq. and dump the Camelot myth for a tough, hardscrabble politician from the West or South who has the ordinary touch.
You mean a communist with a texas drawl like Hightower ?
And with the SDS, Soros, Bushitler-mov-bats in charge, who else but scremin dean has a chance?
To Wit: commentary in answer by the author of the same post
bq. But outside the “let them eat values” crowd, there are plenty of Dems who “get it,” including, I would say, most Dem members of the Senate, and plenty of members of the House. Unfortunately, because of the “man bites dog” appeal, the “values-mongerers” tend to get the most attention, because they’re arguing against Dems’ typical positions, and too many Dems still don’t understand why what the values-mongerers are saying is a bunch of hooey.
“let them eat values” ? “values-mongerers”
“bunch of hooey.”
Which nails shut the case, as he says they “get-it” while proving beyond all doubt that they dont.
After all, its just a “bunch of hooey.” from “values-mongerers”
I wonder if they really do think this is a gap that can be filled in with marketing and personality.
The dripping sneering contempt of their own that dont fall for it any more, sure seems to have retained its potency.
I think the SDS, Moveon deniacs own the party now, there might be a few Scoop Jackson, John Kennedy, Truman hangers on out there, but other than Liberman, where are any that hold office ?
The Bagdad McDermots are their heros now.
the problem is fairly simple…
these so-called “values voters” are predominantly (not entirely) the same people who thought support of segregation was an indicator of a candidates “values”, and now see discrimination against gays and lesbians as the big “moral” calling call. It doesn’t matter how many lies Bush tells, or how corrupt the GOP congressional leadership is, “values” to these people means only that they are allowed to feel justified in hating others.
In other words, going after the “value voters” means pandering to bigotry…..and if thats what it takes to win elections, then this nation deserves the disaster that Bushco is bringing to it.
bq. In other words, going after the “value voters” means pandering to bigotry.
heh you really think tossing around charges like that have any impact any more ?
At one time, it was insulting, then it became annoying, now they are the targeting sensor data to identify the bark of a moonbat.
As for party bigotry, the racist cartoons made of Dr. Rice. calling Colon Powell a “House Slave” thowing sneers and smears at the conservtives in our party, really didnt do a lot to sustain the impact of all those race-baiting insults those like you have used for so long.
They backfire on you when you fling them these days, too bad there seems to be too much manical panic, for you to notice they have become duds.
Well, too bad for the democrats anyway.
Dont change tho, you benifit us when you fling around that dud-mud. as ive already told you.
Hey ! ive got an idea, if you think “pandering to bigotry” is what it takes to capture support of the “values-mongers”
Then run “sheets” Robert C Byrd, the former Grand Klegle of the KKK, its certainly come to his time at bat. the democrat secret weapon to capture the bigot vote.
Problem solved !
“Values-voters” tended to support democratic Second Lady Tipper Gore’s campaign for warning labels on albums and video games.
“Values-voters” tended to support Hillary Clinton’s efforts to shut down international slave trading a.k.a “human trafficing”.
“Values-voters” tended to support John Glenn’s efforts to improve science and math education in local public school classrooms.
and “… for the children!” slogans do, in fact, resonate with such voters.
Which is why they get used.
However, until Democrats notice that married homeowning church-attending taxpaying child-rearing bourgeois voters in suburbs tend to vote in blocs every bit as solid (and larger) than union-joining, racially-identifying, right-side-of-history idealistic proletariats, they are going to have a hard time winning fair and honest elections.
Certain counties in Florida and Washington are still up for grabs, however.