Israel is in one of the periodic periods of Hot War that it’s long-simmering conflict with it’s neighbors goes through. And the usual cast of thinkers are out in force, explaining why what Israel is doing is wrong, must be stopped, and – most important of all – why the US must withdraw our support from Israel.
I want to take a few moments and lay out some thoughts on why it is that we’re right to support Israel, why it is that our support matters to us and to them, and why our visible support of Israel matters a lot to Israel’s Arab neighbors, in the Palestinian proto-state and the surrounding countries.
The major reason to support the people and nation of Israel is because of the kind of people they are. Not the Jewish kind – but the kind of people who have elections and where power changes hands without people being thrown from the tops of buildings. That the Israelis are the kind of people who I believe have the capability to kill all of their enemies, but lack the desire to do so. I think at this point that this represents the truth: “If Israel chose to murder the Palestinians, they would be dead. If the Palestinians chose peace with Israel, there would be peace.”
It does not mean that Israel holds no blame or responsibility – not at all. But the people who bitterly oppose Israel – who are products of a culture based in large part on opposing Israel, the West and everything they stand for – are my enemies as well.
But even as my enemies, I am unwilling to write them off.
And here’s the problem. As I never tire of reminding people, the disparity in power between Israel and the Palestinian proto-states (and the entire Arab world) is immense, driven in large part by the cultural gap between the westernized Israelis and the balance of the Middle East.
I’m no expert, but I have to believe that the day Israel gets tired of this stalemate and simply starts playing by Hama rules, it will be a matter of days before there simply are no more Palestinian people.
And here’s the problem – the same problem I’ve worried about since 2001. How do we prevent this from seeming like a good idea?
Well, the strongest way is for Israel to know that it’s not alone.
And we’re doing a worse and worse job of that.
As Western societies increasingly isolate themselves from Israel – as the EU states and the UK backpedal in the face of the one-two pressure from the academy and from the poor Muslin neighborhoods (which sits nicely with the native anti-Semitism of the elites there), one risk is that Israel feels less and less compelled to care about what those countries think, and so less and less restrained in its behavior.
And from the Israeli POV – reading about the government acquiescence in the UK, EU, Australia, Turkey and other countries to demonstrations calling for the elimination of Israel, for the death of the Jews – you have to ask at what point foreign opinion becomes irrelevant to their behavior.
They can’t be autarkic – they are tied to the world economy, and still get billions from the US. So there is a clear limit on their disconnection.
But when the issue on the table is their survival – whether the Jewish inhabitants of Israel will have to flee for their lives in the face of the collapse of the state that defends them against people who have been (in part because of Israel’s policies, to be sure) raised from birth to hate them and wish them dead – we on the outside need to be aware that Israeli behavior may become less and less constrained as Israelis feel more and more isolated.
Clinton’s comments as a Presidential candidate – that she would respond to an Iranian nuclear attack on Israel with nuclear weapons – were designed to reassure Israel as much as win domestic votes. We need to keep reassuring Israel, not only because they are ‘our kind of people’ but in the interests of the Arab world as well.
Juan Cole (and others) continue to argue that we should massively withdraw our political, military, and financial support of Israel. You have to ask yourself who will be the ones to really suffer from a policy like that.
_”I’m no expert, but I have to believe that the day Israel gets tired of this stalemate and simply starts playing by Hama rules, it will be a matter of days before there simply are no more Palestinian people.”_
Ironically, had the Israelis followed the Arab principle and simply ethnically cleansed Great Israel 50 years ago, they would certainly be in better standing with the world today. Not an endorsement, just a fact. Its the old “its easier to get forgiveness than permission” chestnut. But Israel actually walks the walk of humanitarianism (i hear the howls of protest), certainly compared to a China or a Russia, and they end up paying a continuing price for it. How often do you hear about Rwanda anymore? Are they an international pariah?
Israel has a deadly serious security problem from Gaza. _So far_ only a handful of Israeli civilians have been killed, but not for want of trying. What critics ignore is the technological advance Hamas makes every year in missile and rocket technology. Israel is too tiny a country to risk having a genocidal enemy comfortable with aiming rockets at their heartland.
Or more precisely, at their nuclear reactor. Dimona is less than 50 miles from Gaza. Anybody want to think about the consequences of Palestinian missiles slamming into an Israeli nuclear reactor? Its not a potential threat, its an eventuality.
From my point of view, one of your better posts. Good job.
As you say, the blinding double standard – when Hamas throws people off a roof, no reaction in the Arab media – when Israel responds to rocket attacks, Israel is wrong – is pathetic.
Israel is, I think, getting more and more antsy, and insecure, as well. Especially with the inevitable march of technology – as soon as there is made, by Pakistan or Iran, funded by Saudi Arabia, GUIDED missiles that are smuggled into Lebanon, Gaza – well, all bets are off, on Israel’s response.
Still – one other point to mention, is Israel’s CONTROL of the Palestine territories. That control, the cordoning, the regular citizen who has to be stopped and roughed up by insecure arrogant Israeli guards every mile or two, to get anywhere, and the deep hostility of the Israeli settler movement, and gradual, slow, continual uprooting/throwing out of the homes of long-standing Palestinians, BECAUSE of that settler movement.
That’s also wrong.
I don’t see Israel ever using a nuclear weapon – simply because of the fallout. If the wind changes direction, suddenly millions of Israelis have radiation poisoning.
But, as you say, Israel could use everything but. Raze the ground, sow with salt, etc. And if pushed too far, just might.
We are back then, to a MULTI-STATE solution – with CLEARLY DRAWN BOUNDARIES. Not the occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people, while also not the tolerance of attacks on Israeli people.
But there have been a few posts on the fact that currently, there isn’t enough political power to challenge the settlers, as they are a key swing voter bloc.
So I don’t see any hope, for the near and medium term. Just the the cold war, followed by periods of hot war.
Which, again, is all to the good of the REAL powers in the Middle East. Remember, they use Palestinians as cannon fodder.
I agree with your post almost completely, AL. But… (isn’t there always a but), I think it is fair to condone actions that are clearly reprehensible (or actions that reek of “an eye for an eye). Another issue that keeps showing up is the israeli settlements, with hate crimes occurring on both sides of the settlements. Balancing proper condonation with proper support is a tricky act, and one that I wish this administration had made more effort towards.
I also think that because of Israel’s (more) western government, we also expect higher things from them. It’s not that far from a good student/bad student problem. When the bad student does something bad, you deal with the problem, but may not be handled with much fanfare because it’s expected. When the good student acts out, bells go off from “Hey, this is not normal behavior”.
Hamas is clearly the bad kid, and their actions are expected. We hold Israel to a higher standard, whether or not that standard is fair, and even if Israel was antagonized into their actions.
HR: I’m not a real fan of the settler movement either, but I think I’ve got to point out that the Gazans have given the Israelis a demo of what happens when they withdraw settlers and troops and hand over control to the Palis. Doing the same on the West Bank is going to be a hard sell now, one would think.
I do note that, in spite of the occupation, the West Bank _could_ now be erupting in riots as per the first Intifada, effectively holding down more Israeli troops, but it is not. Fatah and the PA are in essence condoning the dismantling of Hamas. It will interesting to see what that may portend for the future relations of the PA & Israel.
Tim,
A couple of points –
Gaza is pretty much under blockade. Economic blockade. As Hamas is the “de facto” ruler of Gaza, as the ruler, they have to respond.
This may have changed some, given the ONE opening now into Egypt. But the case remains that a lot of the borders of Gaza are controlled by Israel.
I may be completely off base, but – my hope is, that if Gaza as such, actually has self-determination – as Lebanon does now – then when Israel CLOBBERS Gaza (as they did Lebanon) for their aggressive actions against Israel – and then goes away and leaves that country alone, saying “Look, we only did this because of your DEMONSTRABLE attacks against us. If you don’t attack us – we won’t respond with overwhelming force! Think about it next time”.
In that sense, the leaders of Lebanon have not attacked Israel again. While some of that of course, is building up their stockpiles of missiles, some of that also has to be a recognition that “if we leave Israel alone, Israel leaves us alone – and as much as I hat Israel/want it gone, I really don’t want my family and friends to die.”
I THINK, this reasoning must go on a little bit, at least. If the leaders of Lebanon are free to make their own lives, free to self-determination, without interference from Israel, the natural human response, even between those that HATE each other is “you leave me alone, I’ll leave you alone”, with diminishing elements that will occasionally provoke crisis.
Now – counter to that normal human reaction – you have money being supplied to Hezbollah/Hamas, that is given to people, and that money is provided, CONTINGENT on provoking Israel. Cannon fodder.
Which again, makes me think that there isn’t much hope here.
But Gaza is NOT A “DEMO” of what happens when you “leave Gaza to it’s own devices”, because of the control of the borders, and the economic blockade. Because of those things, Gaza is NOT left to its own devices.
“I do note that, in spite of the occupation, the West Bank could now be erupting in riots as per the first Intifada, effectively holding down more Israeli troops, but it is not. Fatah and the PA are in essence condoning the dismantling of Hamas. It will interesting to see what that may portend for the future relations of the PA & Israel.”
That’s a good observation.
_”Gaza is pretty much under blockade. Economic blockade. As Hamas is the “de facto” ruler of Gaza, as the ruler, they have to respond.”_
And Gaza’s borders are under blockade because…..? They fire missiles and rockets at Israel. Or does Israel go to the time and expense of controlling Gaza’s borders just out of pure bloody mindedness?
_”This may have changed some, given the ONE opening now into Egypt. But the case remains that a lot of the borders of Gaza are controlled by Israel.”_
Err, 3/4 of Gaza is surrounded by Israel. Is Israel not allowed to control its own borders? We might also note that suicide bombers haven’t infiltrated from Gaza in years, when it used to be a regular occurrence. Is Israel morally obligated to accept suicide bombings by keeping its borders wide open?
As far as the Egypt border, EGYPT is controlling that border as well, often closing it, because Egypt is concerned with Hamas as well. Where’s the condemnation for Egypt? Or is Egypt allowed to control its border as it sees fit?
hypocrisyrules —
#2 was a really good comment, your perspective made me think. Thanks for adding to this thread in #5 and #6 as well.
I, too, see no grounds for optimism. As has often been remarked, in 4GW terms, the rejectionists (Hamas, Helbollah, Fatah, et al) have an immense advantage. That is the ability to prevent Israelis from leading “normal” lives–not overshadowed with dread, prospects of economic disruption, fear for their children. The Israelis have an equivalent power, but 4GW warfighting isn’t based on symmetry.
Mark,
40% of the “border” is the sea. THAT is also controlled, pretty much completely I believe, by Israel.
I understand the blockade on the Israeli side. As far as Egypt goes, there HAS been condemnation of Egypt, regarding the border closings, all over the Arab media- though of course, not nearly to the same degree.
I understand why things are happening as they are happening. But, it simply is the case that a blockade of food, medicines, a WAY FOR A PEOPLE TO SURVIVE, of course is going to generate armed opposition. That is the fact.
So what is the solution to that?
Possibilities –
1. Israel allows Gaza to have a port?
2. The opening of the Egyptian borders, with arrangements made so that Gaza can import/export as needed?
On the other hand – is a city-state model for Gaza even really possible? Or is it too small?
_”1. Israel allows Gaza to have a port?_”
Ultimately that has to be a given. But that can’t happen without security assurances. With unfettered access, Hamas could have an Iranian artillery system next week capable of striking Tel Aviv or Dimona. That is clearly unacceptable.
_2. The opening of the Egyptian borders, with arrangements made so that Gaza can import/export as needed?_”
That will be the resolution at some point, but it will require some sort of international monitoring to at least attempt to keep Hamas from being wholesale rearmed with their pick of weapons. Apparently there was a deal close to being in place along those lines but Hamas leaders in Syria torpedoed it because they would have lost face.
_”On the other hand – is a city-state model for Gaza even really possible? Or is it too small?”_
Thats a pertinent question. With the original partition Gaza was a part of Egypt, that is the best solution but the Egyptian don’t want the headache and the Gaza Palestinians would lose their raison de entre as the invented ‘Palestinian people’.
The best realistic solution is making Gaza a sort of open city like Mon$co. Set up some casin0$ for the Arab high rollers to build up.
The downside of that is it makes the West Bank less viable as a nation. Gaza was important in the 2 state solution because of its sea access (though nobody figured out a particularly plausible way to bridge the gap between the two).
bq. But, it simply is the case that a blockade of food, medicines, a WAY FOR A PEOPLE TO SURVIVE, of course is going to generate armed opposition.
Until it doesn’t.
Israel has Gaza by the throat, always has, and always will in any reasonable scenario. Israel is always going to have superior force generation potential and geography on its side, so long as it exists. AKs and rockets don’t beat armor, air force and PGMs, and no Israeli government is going to let competitive forces build up in Gaza.
Hamas responds to this situation by importing weapons and exporting suicide bombers and missiles. That’s as rational as pissing on the boots of one who holds you by the throat – ineffective and hopeless.
Gaza needs to be taught a lesson about the reality of the situation, and a rational way to cope and succeed in spite of it. The Arabs, EU, UN, US and even Israel have done their level best to make sure that lesson is not taught.
Cast Lead is one way to go about it, but as others have noted, it’s part of a repetitive pattern of mutual retaliation. Even successful, it may leave the illusion to the Gazans that getting the right mix of rockets, bombers and whatever might work next time, to do…. something…
So I say demonstrate the reality of the situation. Turn the de facto blockage into a siege. Cut off everything but food and water, and wait. If that doesn’t work, cut off the food. The end state is NOT when the rockets stop flying, but when the Gazans hand over the Hamas leaders with ropes around their necks. Then hang them. (Or let the Gazans shoot them, more realistically.)
Will people die? Yes. But probably not more than in Cast Lead and its inevitable successors. And at the end, the Gazans will understand reality, and the helplessness of themselves and those who use them as cannon fodder to do anything about it. Then it will be over.
And then we can talk about city-state. There are examples to show that populations of that size with minimal natural resources can make a go of it. But I don’t know of any successful example that’s more dedicated to destroying something than building for themselves. As long as the Gazans are left their illusions, it’s not happening.
A point of relevancy to A.L.’s post: Arguably the United States supports Israel militarily, politically and financially, *as it does other Middle Eastern countries.* Reducing that support is worth considering across the board.
But Israel’s conventional military dominance over the Palestinians and neighboring Arab countries is such that I don’t believe that support is essential. It is more essential for Hamas to find support in the International Community (TM). Without the international community, Hamas would be without any defense except the mercy of Israel. Hamas is the one seeking support.
So I believe what matters is whether one supports Hamas. Imagine there is no Israel; _it’s easy if you try._ Hamas is launching rockets at civilian populations in Syria (Death to the Alawites!). Does one truly need to support Syria to oppose Hamas?
Military attacks directed at civilians should be treated like genocide or piracy; it should be beyond the pale of international support or comfort.
re the territorial sovereignty of Gaza
It’s been argued that Gaza is not a state. “Example”:http://www.ejiltalk.org/a-follow-up-on-israel-and-gaza/ The argument is not fully explained, but seems to be directed towards two conclusions: (1) Israel cannot use its military power since this is not a war between states, and (2) the Palestine Mandate territory is still under control of the international community.
Me: I believe in the Max Weber concept of state; Hamas holds a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence in the Gaza strip. If not Hamas, then whom?
I think there is a good argument that Israel’s blockade was an act of war. It would be, however, an act of war proportionate to strategic goals. It creates the least amount of civilian casualties while limiting Hamas from access to military weapons to kill Israelis.
I think there is also a good argument that Israel’s evacuation of Gaza was cynically intended to permit it to use war powers against belligerents. I’m reminded of all those westerns where the cowboy says “Pick up the Gun; I don’t aim to shoot an unarmed man.” Then the fool picks up the gun . . .
You assume that the hatred of people like Juan Cole is rational.
If Israel falls, and million of Jews are murdered, Cole and his ilk will just smirk and enjoy the victory their Islamist friends have won.
If Israel wipes out the Palestinians, it serves as full justification to them for all the loony things they blieve about Western Civilization (and the Jews), and in their minds they were the “heroes” who tired to stop it. On some level, I suspect they may desire this; it fits their ideological fantasies too well. The fact that would have done a fair it to cause the situation will not, of course, be allowed to enter their minds.
So, their position is one in which nothing of theirs is held at risk, and either way they “win.”
Logic is not relevant to any of this. Only the hate that animates them.
In that, they are a perfect – but less courageous – match for their Hamas allies.
We fund both sides of this conflict, the Muslims and the non-Muslims. That’s bad. We should fund only the non-Muslim side, in this case the Jews. But if that option isn’t accepted, the next best option is not to give one dollar to anybody in this fight.
I think that solves the problem, because, apart from the implacable hatred of Islam, which we will have to deal with too, the Jews are as secure as they want to be. Apart from the inherent character of their Muslim neighbors, their main handicaps are their liberal values and their indecisiveness. Funding Israel doesn’t fix this. Defunding Israel could lead the Jewish state to act in a less constrained way, which would be better for its chances of survival than continuing to accept American funding and continuing to pull its punches.
bq. …whether the Jewish inhabitants of Israel will have to flee for their lives in the face of the collapse of the state that defends them against people who have been (in part because of Israel’s policies, to be sure) raised from birth to hate them and wish them dead…
I have some disagreement with this statement to an otherwise good post. The Musselman has long sought the dhimmitude of the kufir be he Jew or not. The Jew is singled out for special treatment that predates the establishment of the State of Israel by centuries.
I was rereading a collection of articles by Tom Peters today and one caught my eye. In his view in this article, the modern jihadi represented by al Queda or OBL is not practicing Islam but the old ME blood cult. Human sacrifice has made a comeback much to the dismay of the West. Though not entirely correct, I think he makes a good point. To even allow that the savages of Hamas, Hezbollah, Tehran and al Queda are anything else than just savages gives them a legitimacy they do not deserve.
Thanks for the blog and the support
as a citizen of Israel i have very mixed feelings of what is going on. I think there is a real need to weaken Hamas and return the South of the country to some semblance of reality.
Yet the destruction of Gaza also worries me. Part of me feels that this is what happens in war; that this is the price for living in a tough neighborhood, that pacifism in the Middle East equals national suicide; that weakening Hamas strengthens chances for peace.
Another part of me fears that regardless of the ultimate responsibility for the war (which I believe lies with Hamas), we (Israel) have innocent blood on our hands.
http://calevinthelandofmilkandhoney.blogspot.com/
That no other country than Israel would tolerate being bombarded for years with thousands of rockets from territory that it handed over to jihadists in the hope of peace is nothing for the Jews to be proud of in my opinion.
In view of the different attitudes and histories that the friends of John McCain and the friends of Barack Obama have towards Israel, that American Jews voted 78% for Barack Obama is also nothing to be proud of.
Jews who support self-destructive policies for Israel and who often also urge self-destructive, weak policies on Israel’s allies often talk as though this entitled them to extra moral credit. My feeling is the opposite. The Jews are being self-destructive, perverse and less than helpful. Moral support, when offered, as it was by the Bush White House in the fiasco of a war in Lebanon, is wasted, so why offer more of it?
Of course Jews or jihadis? is no moral choice at all.
But while Jews, judging by their votes in America, don’t regard the defense of Israel as a serious issue, I don’t see why gentiles have to regard it as a hot, high-priority issue either.
The only solution to the Gaza problem is to depopulate the strip, resettle the residents elsewhere (except for those who have historical ties to the area predating WW2), disband UNRWA and let the other refugee-aid organizations aid in the resettlement. In other words, treat the Palestinian Arab refugee problem precisely the same as any other refugee problem in the world — that is, as a pure humanitarian issue and not a political one. Every war creates refugees, and the losing side has to deal with its losses. The Germans evicted from Western Poland after WW2 don’t get a chance to go back to their homes, and neither should the Arabs who fled the Israeli War of independence which, by the way, was started by the Arabs.
The Europeans who are clamoring loudest about the supposed humanitarian catastrophe should be the ones opening their doors to take in the pathetic refugees.
I have to say, 14-16 starts to lean into islamophobia. I will agree on several principles:
1) Hamas is a terrorist organization
2) If roles were reversed, Hamas would not hesitate to annihilate Israel
But I also want to point out that in between these “Jihadists” is a number of innocent people who have:
no pollitical power
no way to feed or protect their families
and no escape
Many people have commented about “strangling Palestine into submission”, well, I expect the opposite to happen. If you corner an animal in the wild, even a cute squirrel can become a vicious enemy. Once the “FLIGHT” pattern is useless, the “FIGHT” instinct consumes. We’re already seeing this behavior in interviews of palestinians.
“One example”:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/world/middleeast/13mideast.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=white%20phosphours&st=cse :
bq. Luay Suboh, 10, from Beit Lahiya, lost his eyesight and some skin on his face Saturday when, his mother said, a fiery substance clung to him as he darted home from a shelter where his family was staying to pick up clothes.
… [The mother] had no affection for Hamas, but her sufferings were changing that. “Do you think I’m against them firing rockets now?†she asked, referring to Hamas. “No. I was against it before. Not anymore.â€
So yes, Israel might crush Hamas, but the natural consequences of this inner-city fighting is going to create another tide of resentment. Rinse, spin, we’ll all be back in another 5 years. If that’s the case, than this whole project has been a massive failure.
_”We fund both sides of this conflict, the Muslims and the non-Muslims. That’s bad. We should fund only the non-Muslim side, in this case the Jews. But if that option isn’t accepted,”_
Our economic and military support of Egypt has been one of the silver linings in this ongoing nightmare. Egypt is doing more than any Arab nation in history to keep the peace and indeed bring down Hamas. Egypt could instantly make Israel’s (and the West’s) lives much more difficult if it decided to support Hamas like Syria supports Hezbollah.
“No. I was against it before. Not anymore.â€
It’s unfortunate, but you’re always going to have some people drawing the wrong lessons. The important thing is to have enough of them draw the right lessons.
So yes, Israel might crush Hamas, but the natural consequences of this inner-city fighting is going to create another tide of resentment.
At this point … *shrug*. Half a century of fetishizing the pie-in-the-sky ideal of ‘not causing resentment’ has failed. Resentment is inevitable, especially when dealing with sullen and spoiled children. As long as it’s made sharply clear that acting on that resentment will not only accomplish nothing but cost more than they are willing to pay, resentment is also irrelevant. Or, put another way, they can sulk all they want as long as they learn to behave.
That sound you just heard was the inevitable collapse of Olmert’s morale courage. If it sounds familiar, its because we heard it in Lebanon. So Israel will quit Gaza having achieved none of its so called objectives, leaving us all to wonder what the thought process was to begin with and what has changed in the interim.
Well, maybe Olmert can achieve the trifecta and go to war with Iran directly and then quitting when his lack of focus and strategy became clear to even him.
#21 from Mark Buehner:
“Our economic and military support of Egypt has been one of the silver linings in this ongoing nightmare.”
We can send money to Iran and Saudi Arabia to get more silver linings.
The purpose of the invasion, it seems to me was to destroy the Gazan infrastructure, Much of it paid for by the Iranians and the more radical elements in the Arab world.
With oil income in the tank and no prospect for that to change any time soon, Iran is facing real problems, including social unrest.
The invasion appears to me to be driven more by regional strategic concerns. Isreal is hammering the Gaza and Hamas, but their effectiveness is enhanced by Egypt’s decision to play the role of anvil, and the pro western states in the area giving the Israelis the tacit approval to eliminate Hamas. The rockets are a fig leaf and not one of the main objectives.
Iran cannot help their Hamas allies nor have we heard a peep out of Hezbollah, the Iranian client on the Israeli northern border. For everything that was said against the Lebanon war, I always felt That it was an important victory over Hezboallah, even if it wasn’t of the magnitude that the Israeli population wanted.
One other thing about the area, the Israelis are the only people on earth that give the faintest crap about the Palestinians. I am not saying this because I think the Israelis are particularly humanitarian in the this regard, but rather that they are a clear, present and chronic problem for the state. The rest of the ME does care whether the Palestinians live or die.
That being said, I think the following:
The world has a case of sympathy fatigue for both the Palestinians and the Israelis, and I cannot blame them.
Isreal better figure out something in the next 30 to 50 years or it is toast. So far things seem to have gotten worse over the course of my life and Israel has not proven itself to be viable, even with all the work they have expended trying to do so.
In my view the real issue here is the idea that a two state solution can work. Really the Israelis and Palestinians need to live together in one democratic, secular state that respects everybody’s right to follow whatever absurd belief system floats their boat.
The idea that non secular democracies work anywhere is ridiculous especially when it results in outcomes such as Europeans being imported into the region by Israel to try and shore up its demographics.
Then the world community needs to move on and never again allow such a tiny irrelevant region of the planet to cause so much aggravation across the globe. Really when you consider how few people this dispute *should* concern it is absolutely outrageous that the world community has allowed this to drag on for so long.
Damo – great idea, wonder why no one has thought of it before!! Oh – because one of the two groups raises its children to believe that the highest calling is to die while killing members of the other group?
I’m thinking that the problem integrating Northwestern into Delta will kind of pale by comparison. Just thinking…
Marc
Marc, don’t worry. No doubt the world community will notice how outrageous they’ve been being and get right on it once B. Redacted Obama gets his hands on the US foreign policy tiller.
I can’t wait to see what non-outrageous thing the world community does to accomplish it. I’m sure when I see it, I’ll smack my forehead with the retrospective obviousness of it all.
You know Nortius I reckon quite a few things probably bounce off your forehead eg the blindingly obvious etc. Apartheid didn’t seem such a roaring success in South Africa why will it work in the Middle East?
I agree Armed Liberal that _”one of the two groups raises its children to believe that the highest calling is to die while killing members of the other group.”_
In fact I would go even further than that and say that they also have a pathological hatred for anything even remotely human, that every one of them would rip our hearts out with their bare hands in a second if given a chance and that they would lie, cheat and steal from us at every opportunity – and that’s just the Israelis – don’t even mention those Palestinians hey!!! Unlike you I don’t barrack for either party in this conflict because they are both as savage and inhumane as each other – I just think if they can’t sort it out then the rest of us should do it for them.
I find it interesting that you both think the international community can’t impose a solution given that’s exactly what seems to be happening in Iraq right about now. I can think of only one reason why a one state solution wouldn’t work and that’s because it if was a democracy it certainly wouldn’t be a Jewish one. And therein my little rocket scientists lies the problem – people who think that their ridiculous beliefs/superstitions somehow have more validity than some other idiot’s ridiculous beliefs/superstitions.
6 Billion people live on the planet and the most serious conflict of the past 50 years is caused by less than 0.1% of them and both Armed Liberal and Nortius think the rest of the world should cop that?
Must have been a quiet day down the sheltered workshop for both of you to end up on the computer….
_”find it interesting that you both think the international community can’t impose a solution given that’s exactly what seems to be happening in Iraq right about now.”_
Actually the international community has nothing to do with it. Its the United States via its blood and treasure. So who do you suggest is going to provide the hundreds of thousands of troops to impose your vision? France?
_”I can think of only one reason why a one state solution wouldn’t work and that’s because it if was a democracy it certainly wouldn’t be a Jewish one.”_
You think you are being clever, but we are all quite aware of the little trick you are using. Its hardly novel. But the devil is in the details, right? Doesnt your solution involve allowing everyone in the region who considers themself a Palestinian the right of return in an attempt to demographically overthrough Israel? Of course thats the idea. The fact that it is a lunatic impossibility that would subject Israel to the genocide long planned by the Palestinians makes it a poison pill.
You are cloaking all this ‘reasonable’ talk that might make sense in an enlightened nation, but we are talking about a people who have sworn to commit genocide. Pretending that isnt demonstrably true isnt going to score you any points here.
_”We can send money to Iran and Saudi Arabia to get more silver linings.”_
If it produced the kind of change we’ve seen in Egypt over the past 20 years it would be the best investment we could make. Unfortunately it wouldn’t work that way with those nations. The US has been fortunate enough to have a positive relationship with Egypt dating back to the 1800s. We’ve cultivated that recently and its payed off huge dividends. Like I said, if Egypt was behaving like Syria right now, this crisis would be an order of magnitude more serious.
Not that it matters since Olmert lost his nerve.
Damo, thanks for the substantive parts of your post. We distinguish here between being sarcastic about proposals and indulging in throw-away slights on participants’ intellects. The latter is more deprecated than the former.
We welcome substantive spirited debate. Please carry on with that understanding. Thanks.
I am unsure how to take your evident major claim that the international community is at work in Iraq. You will find, I’m sure, that many people think Iraq is effectively solely the work of, I suppose they’d say, the US and a few of its lackeys. I don’t use the phrase in that context simply to avoid the hassle with those sorts of people; you don’t present yourself as such; fine.
A showstopper problem for someone who thinks as I do, -brain damaged or not-, with a phrase like “the international community” is that pesky little definite article.
In a world comprising “over 190 countries”:http://geography.about.com/cs/countries/a/numbercountries.htm — the exact number is subject to disagreement — I find it difficult to apply “the” to the phrase “international community”. -But maybe that’s another thing that is blindingly obvious to those not stuck in a shetered workspace.-
Then we have the laughable-to-reprehensible United Nations. Did you mean them when you used the phrase? Please get back to me after you review their success ratio and aggregate behavior.
Watch out for the guys in the blue helmets trading influence for child sex while posted, won’t you? They’re not part of my community.
{edited for comity}
Sorry Nortius I was sure that it was your response to my initial post that was sarcastic – let me re-read that….
Maybe you can answer a few questions and I can leave a little better educated than when I turned up.
A) Are you a supporter of the view that western secular democracy (in its many guises) is about the best form of government we humans have come up with? – If not what form of government do you feel works better.
B) If so can you please advise me of a non secular democratic country that appears to function as well as any secular democracy (ignoring such non secular paragons of democracy as Indonesia, Pakistan, Iraq etc)
C) If you agree that a secular democratic state is the most optimum form of government why then would it follow that the best solution for Israel and the Occupied Territories should be anything other than that?
There simply is no place for religion in any thinking persons understanding of what modern government should be. Why? Because taking into account mythical beliefs, fictional characters and primitive superstitions when forming governments or formulating peace plans is clearly delusional. In the western democracy that I live in I really don’t care what the fruitcake living next to me believes because I am free to believe something equally as stupid. Insist that I live in a country where his delusional belief system governs my life however and I will spend the rest of my days “fighting oppression” too.
After 50 years have we not demonstrated that two non secular states living alongside each other in Palestine cannot work or should we give it a bit more time? Supporters of Israel should be fair less concerned with ensuring it remains Jewish and far more concerned with ensuring it is genuinely democratic and free.
Mark
If you read my post to Nortius above you might see that my opinion doesn’t cloak a “little trick” – I’m quite open in my view that any organised religion is plainly absurd.
In modern democracies there is a place for any one of the hundreds and hundreds of belief systems that humans have created over the past 40,000 years; just that place isn’t at the seat of government. I personally view all three of the Abrahamic religions as pure unadulterated rubbish so I certainly don’t think the state of Israel should be over run by Muslims – I just believe that Israel needs to be a genuinely secular western democracy that doesn’t seek to deal with its neighbours from a base of delusional and irrational superstitions. The Palestinians by the way should be held to the same standard.
You see when you allow religion into government you end up with decisions that have implications for millions being made on the basis of delusional thought such as the idea that Russian Jews who have never left Russia should have more right to live in Israel than Palestinian refugees. As it turns out you didn’t address that in your post and I suspect I know why.
It might also be worth pointing out that whilst my views on religion probably offend more than the odd person your apparent views on entire populations of people are pretty offensive to probably even more. Nothing wrong with arguing the point as hard as you want but in case you’re not sure all of the characteristics you seem to stereotype Arabs with such as the propensity for ethnic cleansing are not Arab proclivities but rather human ones.
Racism doesn’t support your argument it just makes your posts look particularly unintelligent.
Damo, in that case your idea is simple immaterial. Israel could change their constitution tomorrow making it a secular state. Would that change a single issue in their relations to the Palestinians? Would the missiles stop firing from Gaza?
Of course not. But congratulations on your little soapbox tirade, as pointless as it is on this subject.
_”nothing wrong with arguing the point as hard as you want but in case you’re not sure all of the characteristics you seem to stereotype Arabs with such as the propensity for ethnic cleansing are not Arab proclivities but rather human ones.”_
I don’t believe i used the term ‘Arab’ a single time. I used the terms Palestinian and Hamas, and their policies are well documented. You will recall that Hamas was democratically elected by the Gaza people:
Article 7 of the “Hamas Charter:”:http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html
_””The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Muslem).”_
Yeah, god knows where i get these crazy ideas about what Hamas intends. And btw it would be trifling to find the same for Fatah and any other Palestinian political organization you care to name.
Its not ‘racist’ or stereotyping to acknowledge that the Palestinians have created political organizations strictly dedicated to destroying the jews of Israel. That is no exaggeration. I’m sorry if your worldview that Israels official jewiness is in fact the cause of all this, but facts get in the way of that.
Nice work on not actually answering any of the issues I put to you Mark – perhaps you should just stick to stereotyping people and I’ll seek intelligent discourse elsewhere.
cheers
Mark – You didn’t use the term Arab once?
Post number 1
_Ironically, had the Israelis followed the Arab principle and simply ethnically cleansed Great Israel…_
Ethnic cleansing is an Arab principle? Funny that – I’ve never heard that white people, black people, Asian people, Christian people, German people, African people etc don’t feel partial to ethnic cleansing when they feel the need arises.
An Arab principle hey? What an enlightened view Mark and of course completely non-stereotypical or racist as well.
Again nice work!
Damo, I was using the term “Arab Principle” in the context of the official policies of the collection of Arab states that attacked Israel the day of its recognition by the United Nations. You may note that the term Arab is equally valid as a description of nation-states just as one might call the ‘Russian Federation’ or the ‘Germanic states’ of history.
If you care to examine the number of Jews in any of the Arab states today compared to their numbers in the early 1900’s, I think you will be hard pressed to explain the disparity as anything other than ethnic cleansing of the entire region.
Damo: Secular democracy probably is more an emergent property of (somewhat) healthy societies than something that can be imposed by whatever “international community” you care to invent/declare/invoke. Though I agree that it’s part of what I like about where I live, and I favor the dismantling of overt tyranny wherever it can be done, I am not sure history shows that secular democracy can be reliably exported at gunpoint, and I am not sure dismantling of tyranny == exporting secular democracy by force.
If you care to cite Japan as an example, to follow that recipe, actions were taken in that theatre that dwarf any so far seen in the Middle East, including occupation for decades. And even there, the Japanese had some pre-existing social values that helped it work.
Nominally impose it on a population and walk away, without a host of other social value preconditions, and it’s unlikely to last long. In the extreme but not uncommon case, one sees the classic “one person, one vote, one time.” All in the interest of The People, of course.
There’s a longish quote I read recently from someone contemporaneous with the French Revolution I’m trying but so far failing to locate. To paraphrase in modern terms, he said “Before I would fall all over myself being happy for the French, I’d want to know…[list of twenty or so things that he thought underpinned stable functional liberal states]…these things mattering more than nominal democracy.”
I do not think he was entirely wrong to say what he said, especially given how things fell out in the period 1789-1820.
whether the Jewish inhabitants of Israel will have to flee for their lives in the face of the collapse of the state that defends them against people who have been (in part because of Israel’s policies, to be sure) raised from birth to hate them and wish them dead
This is a crucial and under-discussed issue.
I’ve previously suggested evacuation of all Jews as an option that is preferable to the 1) Iran gets nukes, 2) terrorist get nukes, 3) Tel Aviv gets nuked and Israel becomes non-viable.
Emigrate to the USA!
Why not have the USA offer all Jews from Israel an immediate work visa / immigration?
This would be better, for the USA, than a similar alternative: offer all Palestinians immigration into the USA. So they can come to be assimilated into the melting pot, rather than wait around in UN sponsored refugee Jew-hate semi-prisons.
Q for #14 Joe: If Israel falls, and million of Jews are murdered, … aren’t either of the two emigration options than millions of Jews being murdered?
Damo changes from his silly anti-two state solution to a very reasonable: non-secular democracies don’t work. The non-democratic aspects of the Jewish Democracy are under-discussed among Israel supporters.
Certainly Israel should be changing its democracy, so fewer parties are elected. Slovakia’s model is better: only parties getting at least 5% of the vote get reps into parliament, with the vote % of those parties getting less than 5% going to the winners.
Finally, Israel did a terrible job at previous occupation — they did NOT create viable, democratic, Palestinian-led institutions.
The model that Israel should use is Swiss. Cantons with great autonomy, under a very light Federal / Occupation foreign-policy and military controlling gov’t.
My own fantasy for Gaza would be Israel chopping off about 5-10% (some 80-120 000 people) on their border, and doing intense house-to-house searches, plus removing the civilians out of the ‘war zone’ into real refugee camps.
Camps where they are given small amounts of food and necessities, but also lots of opportunity to learn how to make things and to learn English, and even get paid to go thru the classes.
Great post, AL.
The tunnels that endlessly funnel jihad terror supplies from Egypt into Israel are already open again. (link)