Kevin Reybould, of Lean Left comments (and blogs):
[quoting me]”, Im firmly on this team, and I think that thinking folks of all stripes should be as well.”
The problem a lot of us have is that this statement is very often used (and I am not saying you do this) as an excuse to demonize the “other team” (Raymond’s notion that the West is somehow less violent than the Islamic world is a joke, and bad logic. It ignores every other factor that shapes a society and the decisions it makes in favor of the one factor that differentiates the given society from ours) and to paper over or ignore our side’s contribution to the problems.
Many of the things that people broadly criticize the Islamic world for are things that we help create. We are the largest supporter of Egypt, we are the largest customer of Saudi Arabia, we are the nation that overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran. Those actions have the consequence of suppressing democratic forces in the Arab world. In a very real sense, the West has chosen to back those who would make the Qu’ran a book of war.
That is what is so infuriating about pieces like Raymond’s, and the whole notion that the Arab world is just inherently violent. Not only is it bigotry, it is exceedingly dangerous bigotry. By ignoring our own actions, and steps we can take to correct the consequences of those actions, we merely run in place. Killing terrorists is not enough – we must try and make a world where terrorists can gain no foothold. We cannot do that by hiding behind comforting illusions.
I think I disagree. I say I think because Im consciously withholding a decision on a core set of issues here. Im not 100% convinced that we are at war with the Islamic world; I am sure that a group within that world is trying to foment a war. But were at a crucial point where we will either decide that there are elements in the Islamic world to make peace with
because they themselves step forward
or not.
There are two places where Ill expand, though: Yes, the other team is more violent than we are
in the sense that our violence is contained, managed as tightly as an encompassing legal system and bureaucracy can make it. We can turn it on and off like a switch. The violence in the Islamist (and possibly the Islamic) world is ingrained in the daily lives of people who, as a celebration of a wedding, try and fire a live mortar, and who routinely celebrate by firing guns into the air.
Yes, we have often chosen our commercial interests over the will of the people, in places all over the globe. And ultimately what makes me a liberal is that I share the belief in humanitys ultimate perfectibility. But I dont think simply declaring democracy and withdrawing is going to work.
Im just not certain that were anywhere near there yet, and that simply, as Fly Over Country so eloquently put it:
Some people, and I mean liberal in the current defintion, think they can dream up the way it supposed to be, snap their fingers, and the whole world will be remade over in their image. Fishing allows me to not fall into that mindset. Fishing, like hunting, allows me to plug in on the ground floor of a market economy and begin to piece together the relationship between what I get from the grocery store and the forces it took to get it there. Running cattle offers the same sort of insight, only it is a lot more messy and the potential for getting hurt is exponentially bigger. But, that is for another time.
When its democracy time, countries develop democracy. It is not a plant that can simply be transplanted onto violent tribal roots.
Date: 07/04/2002 00:00:00 AM
AL: When i spoke of violence, I was refering to the fact that you seemed to be saying that it is commonplace and natural in the Arab world, and not in the West. If i misunderstood you, I apologize.HowardIslam has a history of religious tolerance – in the “middle ages”, Islamic nations were the most religiously tolerant in the world. The Qu’ran is no more violent than the Bible.You are making exactly the same mistake Raymond did – I suspect for the same reason. You ignore centuries of history (a history, I might add, that clearly shows the West had a large hand in creating the present day Arabic society) and lay it all the Arab’s world problems at the feet of the one thing that they do not share with you – their religion.As for rule of law and democracy, Turkey is a democracy, Indonesia – despite 40 years of American effort’s otherwise – is a democracy, and Iran was one before we overthrew it.
Date: 07/04/2002 00:00:00 AM
Just in addition, AL, I’d like to say that I enjoy your blog in most respects. You get a lot of respect from another well-armed liberal.
Date: 07/04/2002 00:00:00 AM
Henry and Kevin:Based on my reading (which includes Kaplan, Rall, and other traveller-writers, as well as news reports) I’d suggest that 1) meaningful crime statistics are damn hard to come by in the non-western/ bureaucratic world; 2) fear of violence seems to be a major factor in social organizations in those countries.I’ve never said that the West isn’t violent; I’ll align with ‘Guns, Germs, Steel’ and suggest that the history of violence has been a key organziing factor in our sociey.
Date: 07/04/2002 00:00:00 AM
Kevin Reybould ignores the facts and misstates Raymond’s thesis.Islam has roots and “holy texts” that indoctrinate violence.That is a pretty hard fact to argue around.To compare this society to theirs is a rather simplistic comparison, because it doesn’t take into account all of the violent ways in which Islamic society silence dissent and punish criminals.Islam has no comparable history, compared to the West, of establishing rule of law, democracy and true freedom of religion.Again, just sticking to the facts.Islam has a history of suppressing liberal reforms and reasserting orthodoxy when reforms advance too far.This is all in the history books. I’m not making this up.There is room within Islam to handle Western values, but so far there is scant evidence that those values are carrying the day in the mass of Islamic culture; in fact, it looks very much like orthodoxy is winning.To simply argue that theirs is just another culture equal to our own is to express a blindness that surpasses mere ignorance.Orthodox Islam is a danger to the West.
Date: 07/03/2002 00:00:00 AM
SighI cannot type:”Giving in to the easy rhetoric of people like Raymond leads to ignoring the mistakes we continue to make, and ignoring the opportunities that present themselves. If the “other” is mindlessly violent, if “Should be:Giving in to the easy rhetoric of people like Raymond leads to ignoring the mistakes we continue to make, and ignoring the opportunities that present themselves. If the “other” is mindlessly violent, it absolves us of the responsibility to try and effect change – of doing anything, really, but killing ’em all.
Date: 07/04/2002 00:00:00 AM
ArmedLiberal — Kaplan clearly states in BALKAN GHOSTS that he has never felt in any danger among Muslims, despite having travelled to some of the wildest places in the Islamic world including Afghanistan and the tribal regions of Pakistan and never hiding the fact that he is Jewish. The only exception was on a bus in Albania IIRC, because of the Albanian bus riders’ extreme non-Islamic behavior — drunkenness and carousing. Kaplan clearly states that violence in the Muslim world as a whole is almost exclusively political — exercised by the repressive state or those fighting it.Howard Owens — I suggest a closer perusal of Jewish and Christian texts. Perhaps the passage in the Old Testament where Moses castigates his soldiers for not killing women and children, as commanded by God.
Date: 07/03/2002 00:00:00 AM
Hmm. How many murders were there in New York City last year? How many in Cairo? What are the top-rated movies and television programs and video games in the US? In Saudi Arabia? How many times has the US used violence to solve its problems in the last 50 years? How many times have “the Islamic world” used it? How many prisoners does the US have locked up for violent crimes? How many people are afraid to leave their neighborhood? How bad is the drug trade? How ruthless is the mafia? If your only example of a more violent society is the fact that they fire guns at weddings in one of the most war-torn countries in the world (how many people DIE from in-air gunfire in the US each year?) you might want to examine your motives for calling other people more violent than your own people. It doesn’t seem that you have a factual leg to stand on.
Date: 07/03/2002 00:00:00 AM
Hmm. Firing mortars and shooting guns in the air. That’s AFGHANISTAN and the tribal areas of PAKISTAN. Not the entire Muslim world. Sheesh.I’m sure democracy will have a horrible time transplanting itself into the Arab world. It’s worked so terribly in Japan, Taiwan, South Africa, and Latin America.
Date: 07/03/2002 00:00:00 AM
I did not mean to imply that we could “declare democracy” and go home. The people who are responsible for 9/11 need to be brought to justice, but that is not enough in and of itself. We must take the steps needed to nurture those secular democratic forces in the Arab world. They are there. 4000 Palestinians recently demonstrated for elections and governmental reform. A report but out by an Arab “think tank” listed all of the usually suspects – lack of openness, lack of legal protection for women, etc – that are holding back Arab development. We should support these people, instead helping to quash them. We should be working to reform Egypt and Saudi Arabia, we should stay and help build a democratic society in Afghanistan instead of abandoning it to the warlords.Giving in to the easy rhetoric of people like Raymond leads to ignoring the mistakes we continue to make, and ignoring the opportunities that present themselves. If the “other” is mindlessly violent, if And I am not so sure that the Arab world is more violent than the west. Soccer hooligans anyone? Or American fans who destroy their downtowns when a sports championship is won? Or any number of bars I frequented in my wilder youth? We may not shoot guns into the air at weddings, but we certainly have our share of mindless group violence.Sorry for the length, but its hard to address these complicated questions in a short space.