It Is The Time Of The ‘Decent People’

One of the issues I have with terrorism – as opposed to warfare (even guerilla warfare) – is that it must be corrosive to the souls of those who practice it, and I wonder often how easy it might be to step back from a position ankle-deep in the blood of innocents and rejoin the human community.

The history of the PA, or the IRA stand as good examples of that; the ‘Rafia’ tag that the IRA is now given by some in Ireland stands as a good example of how decent people – people who believe in peace, civil society and the rule of law – see them.

Much of what I’d banked my positions in the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the greater conflict with the Islamists on was my belief that the Arab world was full of decent people (as defined above) who had been cowed into silence by the thugs who had taken control of their governments and streets.

Today, in Iraq, Lebanon, and Ireland, we’re seeing the decent people as they rise up.

56 thoughts on “It Is The Time Of The ‘Decent People’”

  1. Actually for all the fuss that the media is making over Sinn Fein and the Provisional IRA, it does not seem to be adversely affecting Sinn Fein in Ireland. In a recent election in Meath, Sinn Fein actually increased their percentage of the vote. Also, George W. Bush is hated in Ireland which will mean that his actions against Sinn Fein will probably have the effect of increasing support for the party in Ireland.

  2. I’m not sure one can step back from a position ankle-deep in the blood of innocents and rejoin the human community. Perhaps for child-soldiers, who are still malleable… but organizations of adults?

    Not until these organizations are broken materially and eclipsed ideologically.

    It isn’t a coincidence that the IRA has devolved into the “RAfia”. Hezbollah operates large drug production and export operations in Lebanon, and it will use those profits plus its guns to cement its hold there and destroy any oppostion that threatens to end its criminal fiefdoms.

    I’m glad to see the ‘decent people’ rising up, and I’m willing to accept criteria for ‘decency’ that stand significantly below what we’d expect in lands where civilization is more than an imported veneer. It’s going to be a long climb, and these pople are taking real risks in order to make real civilization possible one day. That deserves our support, and even our celebration.

    With that said, what comes next is going to be slow, fitful, messy, and often plagued by the same criminals, terrorists, and thugs who have been the region’s millstone for lo these many years. This is part of what Abizaid means when he talks about “The Long War” – and even as we deservedly celebrate our successes, we need to be prepared for this.

  3. I’m not sure one can step back from a position ankle-deep in the blood of innocents and rejoin the human community.

    If you want to talk about those who are “ankle-deep in the blood of innocents” then you should look into the actions of the British loyalist terrorists. Unfortunately, the media tends to ignore the violence of those groups.

  4. The Loyalist terrorists are going to have the same problem.

    Indeed, they devolved right along with the RAfia, and run their own protection rackets, construction “tithes,” et. al. This base of criminal activity is what has allowed both groups to keep going in the post-Soviet era.

    The criteria for improvement are the same: destruction of the terrorist/criminal gangs as coherent organizations, and their ideological eclipse by an alternative worldwiew.

    In Israel, the Irgun were disarmed and dissolved at gunpoint by Ben-Gurion, following a pitched battle that sank an Irgun ship and left quite a few people dead. Irgun was disarmed, its fighting forces disbanded and scattered into regular army units so they could no longer be a coherent armed force (and they could put that aside quickly in the face of an unmistakeable foreign threat). Meanwhile, the broader ideology of Zionism and its aim of building a new Jewish country where Jews would no longer be at the (non-existent) mercies of others eclipsed both the armed internal rivalries within the state and the rationale for Irgun’s M.O.

    Hezbollah could conceivably follow that same pattern. So could the IRA. But first they have to be disbanded (and the Iranians and Syrians aren’t interested in having that happen with Hezbollah), and next they have to be eclisped. In neither case is major progress yet visible or even foreseeable as likely, though I’d give Ireland far better odds than Lebanon.

    But this is what it will take, or else the societies in question are doomed to a long twilight war. Had Irgun been allowed to remain intact, and had it chosen a criminal income base and succeeded in that choice, Israel’s history would look very different (and so would Meyer Lansky’s personal history) – in fact, Israel may have ceased to exist altogether.

    Maybe they’ll surprise me in Lebanon or Ireland. Or maybe the decent people will use some guns of their own. Sometimes, that’s an important part of what it takes.

  5. The criteria for improvement are the same: destruction of the terrorist/criminal gangs as coherent organizations, and their ideological eclipse by an alternative worldwiew.

    The main problem in the north of Ireland is that the British insist on keeping a colony there. The Protestants are descended from British colonists while the Catholics are descended from the indigenous Irish population. The only way to bring peace to that part of Ireland is for the British to repatriate their colonists back to Britain where they belong.

  6. The main problem in the north of Ireland

    Yes, that’s an excellent reason to kill people. Let’s force everyone back to where their ancestors lived in 5000 BC.

    The main problem in the north of Ireland is that terrorists are far too powerful compared to democrats.

  7. Yes, that’s an excellent reason to kill people. Let’s force everyone back to where their ancestors lived in 5000 BC.

    The main problem in the north of Ireland is that terrorists are far too powerful compared to democrats.

    The reason why the IRA uses violence is because the British colonists use violence and oppression to keep the indigenous Irish population in submission. Do you really believe that indigenous peoples should do nothing in the face of colonial violence? End the colonialism and indigenous Irish people will stop joining the Provisional IRA.

  8. _But first they have to be disbanded *(and the Iranians and Syrians aren’t interested in having that happen with Hezbollah)*_

    Those political issues behind are the key question, not the terrorist groups by themselves.

    _while the Catholics are descended from the indigenous Irish population_

    Wasn´t Dublin, oh, excuse me, Baile Átha Cliath founded by Vikings? You know, those people from Scandinavia, from the North, those Nordmands that settled near the Seine river mouth in France and that in 1066 conquered England?

  9. I’m with Rob Lyman on this, and think Diarmid is full of the same kind of shite that’s feeding the problem in Northern Ireland. Once you translate the codespeak, it boils down to him wanting ethnic cleansing carried out on his terms, and duh, the the other parties aren’t very interested (and the IRA lacks the ability to carry this out, and pretty much always will). The usual spew of “colonialism” strikes me as simply the de rigeur accompaniment uttered by leftist terrorist sympathizers over the past 50 years. We’ve heard it all before, and it has yet to move human progress forward one iota.

    This stuff helps to illustrate why, despite recent hopeful signs, my faith in a major turning point in Irish politics is slim. Add to that the strong criminal oprganizations on both sides, and even if the Irish are up for THIS fight, it’s going to be a long one.

    Praktike’s point is also true, to which I’ll add Irgun had nothing even remotely approaching the state sponsorship and massive criminal income of Hezbollah. Which helps to illustrate why I think Lebanon is headed for major trouble, despite recent (and very, very welcome) hopeful signs there.

    There is progress in both places, and it needs to be celebrated. Even as we acknowledge its limits and the hard road ahead.

  10. Wasn´t Dublin, oh, excuse me, Baile Átha Cliath founded by Vikings? You know, those people from Scandinavia, from the North, those Nordmands that settled near the Seine river mouth in France and that in 1066 conquered England?

    Unfortunately, the Vikings invaded a lot of places. That doesn’t mean that the local population is descended from them. The indigenous Irish outlasted the Vikings.

  11. I’m with Rob Lyman on this, and think Diarmid is full of the same kind of shite that’s feeding the problem in Northern Ireland.

    What an intelligent comment!

    Once you translate the codespeak, it boils down to him wanting ethnic cleansing carried out on his terms, and duh, the the other parties aren’t very interested (and the IRA lacks the ability to carry this out, and pretty much always will). The usual spew of “colonialism” strikes me as simply the de rigeur accompaniment uttered by leftist terrorist sympathizers over the past 50 years. We’ve heard it all before, and it has yet to move human progress forward one iota.

    Whether you want to accept it or not, the indigenous Irish are being oppressed by British colonists in the north of Ireland. IRA-type violence will continue as long as this oppression lasts.

  12. Praktike: Irgun was a lot smaller than Hizbollah.

    Also, the Irgun didn’t have Eleanor Clift and the Canadian Foreign Office, to explain to everyone how they were really a “social service” organization.

  13. Do you really believe that indigenous peoples should do nothing in the face of colonial violence?

    Why, no. Ghandi didn’t do “nothing” in the face of British oppression.

    Nor do I think the “solution” to sectarian violence is always (or usually) the literal physical separation of the parties. Indeed, in this case, I would expect that even were the protestants to leave, the violence would continue: as the IRA refused to give up power.

    Besides, there was, for a time, a democratically elected home government in Northern Ireland; yet still the IRA refused to disarm. So I don’t take their “grievances” seriously.

  14. Diarmid –

    What is the exact date we’re supposed to roll the clock back to for everyone on the planet? What’s the ‘olly-olly-oxen-free’ year that magically represents the just distribution of peoples on land?

    Guess what – the Protestants in the North of Ireland are there; you can accept them into a new multi-ethnic state or not, it’s your choice. But the people the Rafia (and it’s less-politically-connected Protestant partners) have had a free hand in terrorising are getting increasing less and less interested in being terrorized.

    Look up “Northfield, Minnesota” some time.

    A.L.

  15. Ya know, it just occurred to me: does Ireland have room to take back its American diaspora? Being of predominantly English descent (from a family that arrived in the New World well before the potato famine), I’m suddenly feeling a need for more lebensraum. Plus, lots of cops are Irish–they’re oppressing me! Maybe I should blow up some little children so that Diarmid will endorse freeing up some real estate for me.

    And no fair bringing up my grandmother named “Mullen.”

  16. Why, no. Ghandi didn’t do “nothing” in the face of British oppression.

    Gandhi was the leader of hundreds of millions of Indians. There are less than a million indigenous Irish people in the north of Ireland. Also India was much further away from Britain than Ireland was. Plus check out this interesting link:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3684288.stm

    Quote:”A year later the Indian legionnaires were sent back to India, where all were released after short jail sentences.

    But when the British put three of their senior officers on trial near Delhi there were mutinies in the army and protests on the streets.

    With the British now aware that the Indian army could no longer be relied upon by the Raj to do its bidding, independence followed soon after.”

    Nor do I think the “solution” to sectarian violence is always (or usually) the literal physical separation of the parties. Indeed, in this case, I would expect that even were the protestants to leave, the violence would continue: as the IRA refused to give up power.

    No one is talking about giving power to the IRA. All that needs to be done is for Britain to repatriate their colonists back to Britain and for the north to be re-united with the Irish Republic.

    Besides, there was, for a time, a democratically elected home government in Northern Ireland; yet still the IRA refused to disarm. So I don’t take their “grievances” seriously.

    “Northern Ireland” was created by the British to ensure that the British colonists would outnumber the indigenous Irish population. That is what the British call “democracy”. I only respect the rights of indigenous peoples, not of the colonists who are oppressing them.

  17. No one is talking about giving power to the IRA

    Other than Gerry Adams’ fans.

    And besides, a violent criminal gang is in a good position to seize power, at least in some enclaves.

    And would you mind citing some examples of “oppression”?

  18. Guess what – the Protestants in the North of Ireland are there; you can accept them into a new multi-ethnic state or not, it’s your choice.

    The problem is that the British colonists – the Protestants – are oppressing the indigenous Irish of the north of Ireland and will continue to do so as long as they are allowed to live there. To support their “right” to live there is to support their “right” to oppress the indigenous Irish population.

  19. Ya know, it just occurred to me: does Ireland have room to take back its American diaspora? Being of predominantly English descent (from a family that arrived in the New World well before the potato famine), I’m suddenly feeling a need for more lebensraum.

    Sorry to break the news but you WASPs are not the indigenous peoples of North America. You WASPs have this sick need to invade other peoples countries, steal their land and oppress their native populations.

  20. Diamond,

    “Repatriate?” Are you for real? Just how many people would end up “repatriated?”. Yeah, forced evacuation of peoples – that’s ALWAYS been the ticket to peace…

  21. And would you mind citing some examples of “oppression”?

    Go to your local library and look up some books on the history of “Northern Ireland” if you want to see examples of colonial oppression against the indigenous Irish.

  22. “Repatriate?” Are you for real? Just how many people would end up “repatriated?”. Yeah, forced evacuation of peoples – that’s ALWAYS been the ticket to peace…

    If it ends the oppression of the indigenous Irish by the British colonists then I am all for it.

  23. No, WASPs aren’t the “indigenous” people of North America. But I still get priority over the Irish in the US by a couple hundred years. So: you support my Irish-deportation scheme? If not, then answer AL’s question: what’s the magic moment in history where the distribution of land is “just”?

  24. Diarmond, (see #16) to find indigenous people you should go to Africa. Your point can not be defended in a rational way.

  25. But Diarmid is providing an object lesson in the types of attitudes that the decent folks, who can see and build a middle ground, will have to overcome. He may not be wielding a gun or explosives, but his like provide cover for those who do.

  26. Diarmid: You WASPs have this sick need to invade other peoples countries, steal their land and oppress their native populations.

    That’s why I’m in favor of giving Europe back to Neanderthal Man. You wouldn’t happen to be descended from him, would you? Interested in a class action lawsuit?

  27. Rob said
    bq. yet still the IRA refused to disarm.

    I was with you untill you decided “gun control” wasn the answer (to anything except slavery)

    Britain is creating a police state by creating crime by rendering the citizen helpless and unable(and forbidden by law(danger to burglars, remember) to defend themselves agianst thugs

    Even in Iraq, Every home can keep a full auto AK47 and ammunition, to defend himself and his home

    And we read news of them captureing some terrorists useing them, something they could not have done otherwise.

    By the time the “right to rape” laws have taken full effect, the violence from the IRA and their ilk will be background noise

    Of course, another Hitler will finally come along and “save” them from the goverment created crime.

    But then again, thats the whole point isnt it … oldest routine in the wannabe totalitarian playbook.

  28. Rob

    bq. Sheesh, can a black guy in the US just shoot me and then shout “slavery” at his trial?

    Not yet, but the left are working on it …

  29. Diarmid

    Im actually sympthetic to the idea that the irish might want leftist “third way” garbage Brit rulers off their land.

    Well to the point that you might be understood to be wanting freedom in the way a right winger american (that you have just tossed insults at it seems) might think of freedom (from the brit soft socialism garbage)

    Bzzzt but sorry, you lose me when you blow people up, anyone of any kind that targets an innocent for whatever cause, invalidates their cause.

    I would love it if the whole Irish people was armed to the teeth, was animated by freedom, and displayed an inate sense of fairness esp where it comes to non combatents

    Bzzt .. but sorry, when a bomb goes off and kills innocents or even only damages his property you forfeit any consideration.

    Morality is key, and without it you deserve nothing.

    In America, we are armed to the teeth, but we fight over here in a contest of ideas

    Perhaps you could learn from us, well that will have to wait untill that anti-american brainwashing has faded.

  30. Colt… no, as I point out (state sponsorship, massive drug income stream) but when you’re talking about key criteria like forcible disbandment, it’s a very important one. I’m quite sure that was the spirit of praktike’s comment.

  31. As for Diarmid, he outs himself utterly with this simple and utterly unambiguous statement. A clearer call for ethnic cleansing could not be imagined:

    bq. “The problem is that the British colonists – the Protestants – are oppressing the indigenous Irish of the north of Ireland and will continue to do so as long as they are allowed to live there.

    Emphasis mine, and it tells you absolutely all you need to know. “Tim Oren”:http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006497.php#c28 gets it, and “JC’s sarcasm”:http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006497.php#c22 is warranted here. I will point out in fairness that historically, large-scale relocations have at times been the ticket to peace (vid. Greece-Turkey, India-Pakistan), but certainly not under comparable circumstances and not without cost.

    I don’t really think Diarmid gives a damn about that, however, or about the fallacy inherent in his worldview… he’s far too busy hating and dreaming of a _Protestantfrei_ Ireland.

    As Tim notes, this is what the decent Protestants and Catholics in Ireland will have to overcome. The “decent people” will have to overcome similar sentiments and dynamics in the Middle East, too – and that region is so poisoned by hate that the job will be much tougher and longer. But it’s the only hope for anything approaching real peace, and combatting it openly is a condition of real peace rather than its result.

  32. Raymond,

    I’m no friend of gun control, pal. But the IRA is a criminal gang, not a law-abiding citizens, and they have therefore forefeited their right to weapons. Supposing you’re right about Iraq: should we concede that Zarquawi has a “right” to gun ownership? Besides, the IRA have all manner of heavy weapons which are not useful in preventing rapes: cart mounted machine guns, anti-tank rockets, etc. Not all “gun control” is created equal.

  33. AL,

    Today, in Iraq, Lebanon, and Ireland, we’re seeing the decent people as they rise up.

    We, of course, have no idea if these are decent people are not. We WANT them to be decent, so we project our desire for their decency onto them. But for all we know, this may be a showdown between the bad and the ugly.

  34. Given the number of adorable Arab hotties on the anti-Syria side, I take you’re calling the million or so peaceful marchers today “bad”?

    I doubt it. If they were, I’d expect a lot of mob-scene violence.

    Still, no way to be sure how this will end up.

  35. Rob

    bq. I’m no friend of gun control, pal. But the IRA is a criminal gang, not a law-abiding citizens, and they have therefore forefeited their right to weapons.

    Once convicted of a crime, Yes, otherwise who is to determine who is the terrorist and who is the free man with his natural right to the tools of self defense ?

    bq. Supposing you’re right about Iraq: should we concede that Zarquawi has a “right” to gun ownership?

    Awe common rob i expected better from you.

    since when do laws have any effect on crooks and terrorists they effect the law abiding, rendering them helpless agaist the crooks and thugs.

    bq. Besides, the IRA have all manner of heavy weapons which are not useful in preventing rapes: cart mounted machine guns, anti-tank rockets, etc. Not all “gun control” is created equal.

    In the USA we can own cannon, they must be smoothbore, and the projectiles must be plain, if hollow, only inert fillers like plaster powder (to make that white poof at the impact point)

    But even that is a violation of the 2nd amendment, whoes aim is that the people always retain the tools you would need to overthrow the government if that becomes neeeded

    Even the singular gun case in the supreme court was a win only by default, the opposing side didnt show up, so the case was decided on the existing briefs

    And because not enough evidence was presented that a sawed off shotgun was a typical MILITARY weapon, the case was decided on that basis.

    The opinion furthers the verdict, that MILITARY weapons ARE the very weapons that are protected as a right by the 2nd amendment.

    So what is a protected right is the weapons carried by our military.

    hey man, thats the ruling of the court.

    laws have no effect on those that live outside the law, you cannot effect those by passing laws, no my focus is the people the restrictions actually effect, those meaning no harm to anyone, all you do with such laws is expose them to harm.

    Yes in iraq the terrorists use RPGs against innocent iraqis to overcome the fact they have machine guns … so i would allow the common people of iraq to keep rpg launchers and a few rockets

    only the honest people will be effected by allowing them to have them, in a positive way.

    Yes, i have a problem asking people to surrender weapons … because only those that wish nobody any harm will be surrendering them. and so you have empowerd evil and dis-empowered the good people.

    How about this, the crooks and thugs and terrorists already have all the guns bombs and rockets they can find hiding places for

    So what is needed is to allow the rest of the people to have the guns needed to defend themselves.

    Exactly the opposite the police state in the making is demanding.

  36. It’s sad isn’t it how little has been settled since 1922 and Michael Collin’s assasination (likely at the hands of Sinn Fein’s Eamon de Valera).

    The largely Catholic minority IS oppressed, and would likely want Union with the Republic of Ireland. The Protestant Majority in the North most definitely does NOT want Union, and particularly to lose their UK Citizenship. I suspect as the Republic becomes wealthier and more liberal and less Catholic, frankly, more like modern France and less like Franco’s Spain in that regard, objections to the Republic on that particular score will lessen.

    I don’t think Protestants in the North (who make up the Majority) will trade their UK passports for Republic of Ireland ones. Even if both are EU countries. Besides, the growing corruption and violence, particularly criminal violence associated with the IRA in the Republic will definitely affect the Republic’s prosperity. Criminal gangs are a massive drain on prosperity, a ban on entrepeneurial business ventures, and a killer of small businesses. In other words, the very basic wealth creators of any society.

    The Republic is likely to face falling incomes and prosperity unless and until it simply eliminates the IRA. I think some MPs in the Dail understand this now, and hopefully will cooperate with the Brits in simply wiping out the IRA (and Sinn Fein). That the IRA owns and operates and skims off the profits through protection rackets and other nasties most of the pubs in the Republic alone should alert folks to the scale of the Rafia.

    As for Diarmad, he shows the utter futility of this way of thinking. Since 1922 (Collins assasination) the IRA has been at it trying to get the Protestants to all leave so all of Ireland can be unified. By my accounting that’s 83 years.

    Yep. EIGHTY THREE YEARS. I can guarantee that if it hasn’t work all that time it won’t work now. The Protestants just won’t leave. They won’t leave in a hundred and eight three years.

    Best solution? Eliminate the IRA/Sinn Fein, grant the North independence fully, or self-rule within the UK (like Wales or Scotland) and be done with it. Stop killing people over a pipe dream that’s eighty three years dead already.

  37. Joe K

    I can relate to the desire for self rule, but I cant relate to targeting innocents.

    But what I really cant relate to is the protestant catholic thing, Im a Christian, i probably would be branded a heretic in any church except that unitarian fraud that welcomes pegans and worshipers of Gog Sohoth, master of the darkness.

    So since i belong no-where, perhaps thats why by brain is terminally obtuse to the sectarian conflict type thing.

    I understand the Islamic fanatic wahabies far better, they operate just like the leftists do, dreaming of their dys-topia.

    But the crap in Northern Ireland, I just cant relate to it, usually in a conflict, there is one side or the other where you can find merit, a cause that passes the moral test, and actors that uphold morality, war, in itself is not immoral.

    But I can find no virtue on either side, nothing that fails to offend me in that conflict.

    I just cannot relate to it…

    If it was me in charge, the south end inder Irish rule would become a freedom and prosperity mecca, and with the resulting boom, able to fund a military able to settle the northern question without firing a shot.

    Let those wanting freedom vote with their feet and come south, untill the poor Euro-socialist slaves of the north demand the better of the two examples all by themselves.

    Hows that for a solution.

    But i just cant relate to sectarian conflict among modern western man, to me, it belongs to the early middle ages right after the roman villas in Britain began to fall into disrepair, to the days of pattern welded swords and before the discovery of black powder.

    Not that it dont still exist, those wanting to resurect the ottoman empire and create Eurabia are a real threat. but among moden men of the british isles?

    I just cant relate to it, and I suspect many Americans have the same problem.

  38. Raymond,

    I’m not interested in a full gun-control debate here. But there are two different questions here which you conflate:

    1) Should individuals be permitted to own an use small arms for their personal defense and the defense of their communities?

    My answer: Yes. UK, including N. Ire. answer: No

    2) Should a known terrorist organization with a history of both murder of innocents and attempts to overthrow the British government (say what you will, it isn’t exactly Stalinist) be permitted to retain large stockpiles of light weapons (which are distinct from small arms), including RPGs, mortars, mines, and cart-mounted machine guns _even after purporting to enter a democratic government and renounce revolution_?

    My answer: No. Your answer: Apparently, yes.

    Please distinguish the IRA from Zarquawi. I see no difference.

    I suppose there’s a third question:

    3) Should individuals be permitted to keep light weapons and explosives in their home?

    I don’t have a good answer except to say that I reject a “right” to any weapon which is insufficiently precise that its destructive power cannot be reasonably controlled when used in self-defense. That doesn’t mean I think RPGs must be always and everywere illegal, just that I don’t think a ban treads on any fundamental rights.

  39. Jim (#42)

    _I suspect as the Republic becomes wealthier and more liberal and less Catholic…_

    As I see it, it is not a religious problem, but a political problem: wheter the IRA, the Catholic moderates or the Unionists rule Northern Ireland. Religion is only the excuse. Michael Collins was Catholic and was killed, probably by the Sinn Fein, for political reasons.

    _The Republic is likely to face falling incomes and prosperity unless and until it simply eliminates the IRA._

    False. The Republic was growing far above the EU average. The economic effect of violence is felt in the North.

    Raymond (#43)

    _But I can find no virtue on either side, nothing that fails to offend me in that conflict._

    That is what people like Diarmind wants you to think. There is virtue on both sides: the moderates, Catholics and Protestants that want to stop violence and live in peace, like their neighbours in the South.

    And I am still waiting the answer of Diarmind about his Aryan, sorry, indigenous race:

    Are the red haired descendants of those Vikings that founded Dublin going to be expelled to Norway?

  40. And wasn’t Saint Patrick a British imperialist, subjugating the indigenous people to his foreign faith?

    Patrick

  41. Rob

    Remember when I said …

    bq. So what is a protected right is the weapons carried by our military. hey man, thats the ruling of the court.

    Its also arguable that extends to the right to own a fully armed stocked and fueled A1 Abrams tank.

    Now one could also argue if such tools fall into the garranty of rights to the tools of revolt (which is an offensive act, not a defensive one!) but that debate is rightly decided by the proceedures set forth in our constution.

    what is offensive are the leftist judges who are redefining our freedoms away because of the very fact that the people themselves would never agree, so the left use the courts to bypass the people, a totally totalitarian undemocratic and offensive method of change.

    bq. 2) Should a known terrorist organization with a history of both murder of innocents and attempts to overthrow the British government (say what you will, it isn’t exactly Stalinist) be permitted

    be permitted ? be permitted what, are you saying they have permission right now ?

    Seems to me the lack of permission has little effect, except on the law abiding and peacefull.

    Ive seen no indication that terrorists and thugs care what you may or may not permit.

    So again, your gun laws only apply to the good people who mean no harm to anyone, so law should be designed with the people that it will effect in mind.

    Laws should be passed with the people that obey them in mind, and no consideration to those that wont, other than the penalties for breaking them.

    Laws targeted at those that ignore laws are destuctive to those that dont ignore laws.

    Such laws are offensive, and those that impose them deserve contempt.

    Joe A

    bq. That is what people like Diarmind wants you to think. There is virtue on both sides: the moderates, Catholics and Protestants that want to stop violence and live in peace, like their neighbours in the South.

    Diarmid sounded like Arafats minions railing against the Jews, agaist the fact that every last jew isnt dead or pushed into the sea.

    Swap Prodestant for Jew, the language seems interchangble.

    and both sides look bad because they are both acting in kind.

    I do have some sympathy for the way it might be perceived to be ruled by a power that gives little thought to what the people might think of it.

    Refer to the base principle expressed to Rob above.

    The Eurabia slaves are having things done to them that would have the population of america in the streets with our military comming out behind us in support. our core is not as hollowed out as are the marxist slaves of Europe. not yet anyway.

  42. Raymond, gun ownership is pretty much banned in NI. You and I agree that 1) this is a bad law, and 2) it doesn’t affect the IRA.

    But as part of the “peace” deal struck some years ago, NI was to get some degree of home rule, and in exchange the IRA was to voluntarily give up its weapons.

    NI got its representative assembly and government, but the IRA did not disarm. Hence, I accused them of bad faith.

    You, in return, railed against gun control. I agree with you that gun control laws are generally bad. The situation with the IRA and its refusal to disarm is not the same as my personal gun collection and you can’t blithely apply the same rhetoric to it.

  43. bq. You, in return, railed against gun control.

    As I should

    bq. I agree with you that gun control laws are generally bad.

    “generally” ? as opposed to universally bad ? when does the bad become good ?

    bq. The situation with the IRA and its refusal to disarm is not the same as my personal gun collection

    I assert it is just the same.

    bq. and you can’t blithely apply the same rhetoric to it.

    “rhetoric” ?

    That word implies what I said does not have intristic merit, im not using word tricks or the type of intelectual dishonesty that word implies.

    And I reject that accusation.

    Now, if you was to focus on the agreement that was broken, on the fact that an agreement was broken (you just did) and if or not an organisation of terrists have the kind of top down order structure that makes a agreement like that tennable

    I would have been one of those that would never surrender my weapon for example.

    You might as well be asking to rape my wife or abuse my kids, something by the way, surrender of my gun makes more possible.

    What about the part about not negotiating with terrorists ?

    Bank robbing terrorists it seems. the same lilly livered leftism that took away the honest mans gun is now negotiating with terrorists.

    How about the idea that both are the product of the same loathsome dysfuntional infection ?

  44. About the decent people. This comes with a sense of global responsability in local behaviour. Tolerance has now been shifted into higher gear by the tolerant people demaning the intolerant to be responsible.
    This is very clear in the Netherlands. The verb politicians and the media use most often is the responsibility of the people. Responsable for your deeds and for the consequences.
    However Solidarity has lost meaning. If people loose jobs, claim funding etc etc, the civil society tends to have this right-winged view of: “You failed, now try again, you miserable bastard”.

    So the decent people may be back, but they want everybody to wrok with them.

  45. Raymond, did you just accuse me of being a schoolgirl-murdering terrorist? ‘Cause that’s the only way my personal gun collection can in any way be compared to the large arms caches held by the IRA. And it makes me rather disinclined to continue to be polite.

  46. Jonathan (#53)

    _However Solidarity has lost meaning. If people loose jobs, claim funding etc etc, the civil society tends to have this right-winged view of: “You failed, now try again, you miserable bastard”._

    You can be as solidary as you wish, but please, do it with your own money, not public spending.

  47. I’ve come very late to this enjoyable & interesting debate. I start by making a number of assumptions: that I am likely to be the only person in this debate who has grown up face to face with terrorism in Ireland in my everyday life; who has school friends who became (and were killed as) terrorists; who saw my entire City destroyed by terrorism; who personally knows civilians (*entirely innocent*) murdered by the security forces; whose family friend was a member of the security forces – equally undeserving of execution – and was murdered by terrorists. I am Irish.

    So, let me comment:

    – Throwing the colonists out of Ireland ? As a “native,” this suggestion is either either a tease, totally naïve or just plain rubbish. We’re all colonists. Those later ones are equally important elements of our country – whether they wish to call themselves British or Irish. Those “colonists” have given some of the richest elements of our culture to Ireland. The real issue now is how we all live together and celebrate our diversity and our wonderful cultures.

    – Rafaria: Much debate has been taken up with the IRA. Although it is without doubt that members/former members have followed a career path into pure gangsterism, let us not forget the most important thing: that the IRA was and probably still is a very formidable fighting organisation. Before that upsets one or two (and it is not a defence of their actions), I am quoting directly from a senior officer in the British army. I say this because, if Terrorism is to be “defeated,” then we must not ignore the lessons of the process which has led to “cessation” in Ireland. The major lesson is: Terrorism is not beaten by Cruise Missiles & B52s, as the US Army now knows. It must begin with an understanding of the issues giving rise to Terrorism (as President Clinton presciently observed in the immediate aftermath of 9/11). And yes, ultimately that means talking with the terrorists (just as the US Government has a covert dialogue right now with the Iraqi insurgents). That in itself is not the same as giving in to the terrorists – after all, the IRA has hardly won a resounding victory, have they ? No United Ireland; British Army still in place; quasi RUC still there. However, the IRA is nothing if not unpredictable: their plans changed throughout the period and the strategy of “the Armalite and the Ballot Box” has been significant. Perhaps they have won a different victory ?

    – * Gun control in Northern Ireland* If there was Gun Control, it certainly did not work. And even if all the Loyalist groups were to disarm now, there will still be far more legal guns per head of population than in Britain.

    War is horrible, bloody, noisy, violent: those it leaves untouched are damaged, too. There’s nothing to glorify in guns. I hope the War is over in Ireland now.

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